TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[MrJeeves]

Never understood why it doesn't expire, because TfL will now indefinitely have liabilities on their accounts from cards which have been thrown in the bin and so will never be cashed in. Avoiding that, not catching people out, is the reason store vouchers only typically last a year. Though I agree it's handy for occasional users, some of whom might as well just order say a Visitor Oyster with £50 on it and just use it until it runs out over many years.

I would imagine it's because TfL, in a sense, do not have any immediate liability from Oysters with credit left on them. Me boarding a train that is running whether I use it or nor is negligible in a sense. It's not like we could gang up and bankrupt TfL simply by all using our Oysters at once.

issue outboundary Travelcards only on ITSO. It's already possible.

Fine with me, as long as GTR actually bother to enable super off-peak outboundary travelcards for once! This would be a great compromise if the rationale (at least partially) is to reduce paper ticket use. I tend to use ITSO travelcards normally, anyway, due to the convenience.

Additionally, I don't think smartcards can be issued from ticket machines.

Not Oyster, but GTR had some Key smartcard "kiosks" that would issue Keys when you enter your personal details. They're all gone now, sadly.

They had a surprising number of them:

• Bedford
• Brighton
• Eastbourne
• Haywards Heath
• Hitchin
• Horsham
• Luton
• St Albans
• St Neots
• Stevenage
• Three Bridges
• Worthing

I believe they got rid of them as all GTR ticket offices can issue Keys now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True enough, that was a more general comment about the concept of Oyster being an alternative to cash payment, rather than about this specific proposal.

Back on this specific proposal, having briefly crunched some numbers via brfares, I can see TfL losing quite a bit of money from me as a result of this. Conversely, Greater Anglia in particular will be getting a bigger slice of my money. Eg. instead of doing Ely->Southend via a travelcard and a boundary ticket, giving TfL the travelcard slice, I'll do separate tickets to/from Liverpool Street, giving TfL nothing.

And I already, as mentioned above, use two singles and contactless when going to the office as it's cheaper. Many people don't realise that and buy the Travelcards. When they stop, TfL is going to miss out on a load of income, particularly if they then decide "well, if the Tube isn't on my ticket I'll walk or get an Uber".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

I would imagine it's because TfL, in a sense, do not have any immediate liability from Oysters with credit left on them. Me boarding a train that is running whether I use it or nor is negligible in a sense. It's not like we could gang up and bankrupt TfL simply by all using our Oysters at once.

You might want to have a read up on how accruals finance works. In short, companies don't run their finances the same way as we do as individuals, or the way a simple body like a Scout Group (say) runs its finances. We'd call that cash accounting - when you receive money it's credited to your account and when you spend it it's debited.

Something like an Oyster balance in accruals accounting is in the accounts as a liability, and it remains one until it can be proven (edit: or assumed, it seems) otherwise. As I said this is the reason why gift vouchers have an expiry date.

A comparison is (in the olde days) where you've written a cheque to someone but they haven't presented it - it could be presented at any point for an indefinite* period, thus you had to keep a note in your cheque book of cheques that hadn't been presented so you knew.

Also don't forget you can cash in the balance of an Oyster.

* Nominally 6 months but the automatic processing systems don't read the date.

 

[MrJeeves]

Something like an Oyster balance in accruals accounting is in the accounts as a liability, and it remains one until it can be proven otherwise

For accounting, TfL discard remaining balances as liabilities after 2 years of non-use of an Oyster from my understanding (if it is realised into revenue, I would assume it is no longer regarded as a liability?), but it's not well worded.

For accounting purposes we recognise balances on unused cards into revenue after two years of the card remaining continuously unused. This does not affect balances on the card and we will honour any balance if the card returns into use.

From: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2740-1819

 

[Bletchleyite]

For accounting, TfL discard remaining balances after 2 years of non-use of an Oyster.

From: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2740-1819

Interesting, thanks. Presumably they insert a correction in the accounts if any come back into use. (The joys of corporate finances - until I did an OU business studies course I never knew they were so complex!)

 

[MrJeeves]

Interesting, thanks. Presumably they insert a correction in the accounts if any come back into use. (The joys of corporate finances - until I did an OU business studies course I never knew they were so complex!)

I only found it by chance, after your comment, so thanks really go back to yourself!

 

[MikeWM]

And I already, as mentioned above, use two singles and contactless when going to the office as it's cheaper. Many people don't realise that and buy the Travelcards. When they stop, TfL is going to miss out on a load of income, particularly if they then decide "well, if the Tube isn't on my ticket I'll walk or get an Uber".

Yes, exactly this. Many times in the past I've got a travelcard without looking to see if there was a cheaper way, simply because of the convenience and the possibility that plans will change. So in those cases TfL will go from getting the full travelcard cut and probably only having to supply one or two short journeys in return, to getting zero. I think this may well end up costing TfL money in the end - they'll certainly be getting less from me.

 

[nickswift99]

Yes, exactly this. Many times in the past I've got a travelcard without looking to see if there was a cheaper way, simply because of the convenience and the possibility that plans will change. So in those cases TfL will go from getting the full travelcard cut and probably only having to supply one or two short journeys in return, to getting zero. I think this may well end up costing TfL money in the end - they'll certainly be getting less from me.

That was my point about cost avoidance.

I don’t know how TfL would get the data to know how many journeys would be charged for/avoided as there’s no way of linking the use of a non-smart card ticket together.

 

[Haywain]

And I already, as mentioned above, use two singles and contactless when going to the office as it's cheaper. Many people don't realise that and buy the Travelcards. When they stop, TfL is going to miss out on a load of income,

Are TfL going to miss out though? How much do TfL get from the Travelcard sale, assuming some part of it goes to the TOCs within the zones as well? I suspect that the vast majority of Day Travelcard use is within zones 1 and 2, and on underground services where TfL will get all the revenue from the contactless or Oyster payments, so this may even be revenue positive for TfL.

 

[jon0844]

Yet another reason not to visit London any longer...!

They're probably banking on leisure travellers still wanting to go to London no matter what (and driving into London isn't a thing for a lot of people), as well as all the people who moved out of London but still working there having to just put up with it. Are they going to quit their job? Chances are they have to go in to an office at least once or twice a week now.

TfL probably knows that people happily use contactless when a super off peak ticket is cheaper, just because it's more convenient. As such further 'simplifications' can easily be introduced and sold as benefits even if we all know it to be a lie.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting, thanks. Presumably they insert a correction in the accounts if any come back into use. (The joys of corporate finances - until I did an OU business studies course I never knew they were so complex!)

It's really not an issue at all for TfL, because liabilities in the form of pay as you go balances which haven't been accrued are perfectly matched by assets, in this case, cash, to the same value. i.e. the balance held on cards determined to be active isn't even TfL's to spend, it's just sitting there in deposits. This isn't the same as vouchers at M&S which expire permanently after two years, because you can't get the money back, only goods or services from M&S. There isn't a restriction on when the balance on an oyster card can be returned.

 

[Mojo]

I wonder if a move could impact Toc income from locations north of London with people willing to drive to the edge of London and catch the Underground from there? The size and heavy use (pre-Covid) of car parks at stations like Hillingdon, Stanmore and Epping on weekdays suggests that commuters are willing to drive from quite a wide catchment area to the edges of the network, and they are a lot closer time-wise than many people may think. Hemel Hempstead to Stanmore and High Wycombe to Hillingdon for instance are both around a twenty minute drive with no traffic, and with price increases on National Rail may represent better value for money.

 

[XAM2175]

I'm not sure that would do it. One of the benefits of Oyster and Contactless for the operators is the greater amount of data available for allocating revenue. Fare changes are not going to deliver that.

Moving Day Travelcards to smartcard-only issue would achieve that.

I do wonder to what extent this consultation / engagement is a partly a (clumsy / forceful depending on viewpoint) negotiating exercise - that is, TfL negotiating with RDG / GBRTT / DfT to increase their share of the Travelcard pot.

Also, perhaps TfL making the point that they have a huge maintenance liability for the (CCST) mechanical magnetic stripe ticket readers in gates across their station estate - mag stripe ticket readers which now get far less use since the introduction of Oyster and contactless.

Then there's the broader issue of the (limited) future of CCSTs across National Rail, which informed posters on here say are on their way out.

The question then is in a CCST-less future, how do you issue Day Travelcards?

The mag-stripe aspect is a red herring. If TfL were primarily wanting to end the use of paper stock they'd be ending the sale of paper singles and moving everything else to Oyster and/or ITSO. Then they'd only need to keep CCST capability at stations where there's inter-availability with NR services, and at the official entry and exit points for NR-ticketed cross-London transfers, and only until such time as they get barcode readers rolled-out.

Its's your first paragraph that is a lot closer to the nail, I suspect, as that resolves the apparent contradiction in "it saves customers money while making us more money".

So the three options that TfL will probably be choosing from are:

1. Remove the Day Travelcard entirely, switching to per-journey distribution, or;
2. Negotiate a greater share of Day Travelcard allocations, or;
3. Increase the price of Day Travelcards until the TfL share of revenue under the existing agreement reaches the same sum as they'd expect to have obtained through (1) or (2).

Ahh that's good to know then, because I don't live in London I've never used one so that's why I mistakenly thought about smartcards not being able to be issue on a TVM (they certainly can't on Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs down here in Sussex or Oxfordshire, but I doubt TfL uses Scheidt & Bachmann)

The TVM's operator will choose its capabilities when ordering it. Scores of transport networks around the world use TVMs to issue reusable smartcards.

 

[nitten_travell]

though some may use the Travelcard because it makes an expenses claim easier.

For me it is significantly easier to claim the cost of a dayticket than any contactless transaction (on any form of transport) incurred when travelling for work.

 

[kristiang85]

Ugh I've only just seen this. It stinks of a moneygrabbing policy by TFL, espeically as weekly and monthly cards will be retained - they just want to get people like me who have worked out it is cheaper to buy day travelcards and work 2 days a week in London to spend a lot more.

All it's going to do it stop such people from coming into London more often, and allied to the ULEZ it will become an even less attractive place to work/live/do business.

Edit: Astonishingly, that man has the audacity to tweet this today:

Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan

@MayorofLondon
·
4h

Londoners are being priced out of their city. That simply isn’t right. How much longer will the Govt ignore my calls to fix this? Give me the power to freeze London rents.

 

[Meerkat]

The mag-stripe aspect is a red herring. If TfL were primarily wanting to end the use of paper stock they'd be ending the sale of paper singles and moving everything else to Oyster and/or ITSO.

Depends which of these acts they think is the hardest. No point getting rid of the other paper tickets if they can't get rid of paper Travelcards.

 

[jon81uk]

For me it is significantly easier to claim the cost of a dayticket than any contactless transaction (on any form of transport) incurred when travelling for work.

Contactless is easy to claim expenses for, login at https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/, download the history as a PDF, claim for the daily cost.

Most claimants I find at work with paper tickets forget to ask for a receipt and then have issues when the ticket is taken by a barrier (I know that won't happen with a travelcard).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Contactless is easy to claim expenses for, login at https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/, download the history as a PDF, claim for the daily cost.

Most claimants I find at work with paper tickets forget to ask for a receipt and then have issues when the ticket is taken by a barrier (I know that won't happen with a travelcard).

Quite a lot of businesses have a centrally settled train ticket and flight purchase system (sometimes hotels too), e.g. Evolvi or ClickTravel, so they don't have to claim anything if they just want anything one of the online retailers can sell, the manager approvals are done before issue rather than on the retrospective claim. So while it's not massive effort, it's nonzero.

I've also in the past bought a Travelcard and submitted the claim via one of the app based expenses tools while sat on the train.

 

[XAM2175]

Depends which of these acts they think is the hardest. No point getting rid of the other paper tickets if they can't get rid of paper Travelcards.

They already have the power to get rid of paper Travelcards, and they've already excised it to end the retail of paper periodical Travelcards. If the only problem with the Day Travelcard was the fact it's retailed on paper, they could switch it to be Oyster and ITSO only.

Abolishing it entirely speaks to a different primary purpose, even if a secondary effect is the reduction in the overall number of paper tickets circulating.

 

[jon81uk]

Quite a lot of businesses have a centrally settled train ticket and flight purchase system (sometimes hotels too), e.g. Evolvi or ClickTravel, so they don't have to claim anything if they just want anything one of the online retailers can sell, the manager approvals are done before issue rather than on the retrospective claim. So while it's not massive effort, it's nonzero.

I've also in the past bought a Travelcard and submitted the claim via one of the app based expenses tools while sat on the train.

Yes we use Key Travel who have a system which I think uses Trainline as the back-end so people do have the option of buying rail tickets up front. But they also often need to claim for TfL journey's too.

 

[Thirteen]

It's a bit hyperbolic to suggest that TfL getting rid of Day Travelcard will harm the London economy.

 

[Snow1964]

For accounting, TfL discard remaining balances as liabilities after 2 years of non-use of an Oyster from my understanding (if it is realised into revenue, I would assume it is no longer regarded as a liability?), but it's not well worded.


From: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2740-1819

Apparently nearly 90m Oyster cards have been issued, many have balances, and deposits of free, £3, £5, £7 exist

Somebody could visit London after 10+ years and use a card

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit hyperbolic to suggest that TfL getting rid of Day Travelcard will harm the London economy.

I would agree. But I do think there's the distinct possibility that it won't in fact bring the full savings TfL are suggesting, because those seem to be largely based around the idea that people will just cough up rather than either not going to London as much at all or taking Ubers and walking more rather than using TfL services. It's probably true, generally speaking, that within London itself where car ownership is low and driving is mad anyway that if TfL does something bad with fares people will whine about it but continue to travel as they did before give or take maybe a few switching to Uber, walking or cycling. But I don't think that's universally true of discretionary daytrippers from the Home Counties, who are the people this mostly hits in the pocket.

 

[Starmill]

Abolishing it entirely speaks to a different primary purpose

As people keep pouting out this isn't some kind of a secret. The main reason is to charge people who use Off Peak Day Travelcards more. Travelcard Seasons aren't in scope (yet).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

But I do think there's the distinct possibility that it won't in fact bring the full savings TfL are suggesting

I agree. The additional revenue they earn will be less than forecast, and even if it met forecast it wouldn't be anything like enough to return to a sustainable position anyway. But they still have to go for it.

 

[MrJeeves]

Apparently nearly 90m Oyster cards have been issued, many have balances, and deposits of free, £3, £5, £7 exist

Somebody could visit London after 10+ years and use a card

Totally correct, but I don't see how this affects what I said?

 

[Starmill]

Astonishingly, that man has the audacity to tweet this today:

What's wrong with that? He wants to save people who live in London money. This policy is likely to achieve that. What other goals do you want the Mayor to pursue? Do you not accept that the influence the Mayor has is trivial anyway given power is centralised in the hands of Ministers?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

they just want to get people like me who have worked out it is cheaper to buy day travelcards and work 2 days a week in London to spend a lot more.

That's the idea, yes. But if you don't live in London...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ugh I've only just seen this. It stinks of a moneygrabbing policy by TFL, espeically as weekly and monthly cards will be retained - they just want to get people like me who have worked out it is cheaper to buy day travelcards and work 2 days a week in London to spend a lot more.

I'd check your fares. Some outboundary Travelcards, most notably from around Bournemouth, Southampton and other parts of SWR around that sort of area, are rather underpriced. But on the WCML it is cheaper, if a bit less convenient if on expenses, not to use an Anytime Day Travelcard if you're just doing the typical thing most people going to work do and making a return train journey and two Zone 1 Tube single trips. The Off Peak and Super Off Peak Travelcards are generally better value, but unless going out of Zone 1 or making multiple trips the Anytimes are very poor value.

Example fares:

Bletchley-R1256 Anytime Day Travelcard: £53.60

vs

Bletchley-London Terminals Anytime Day Return: £46.30
Tube contactless single £2.80 x2
Total £51.90

vs (let's be even more clever)

Bletchley-London Terminals Anytime Day Single: £23.60
London Terminals-Bletchley Off Peak Day Single (no evening restriction): £22
Tube contactless single £2.80 x2
Total £51.20 (OK this is an anomaly, but I've posted it before and they've not fixed it so I'd not worry)

Or even (this is what I do, or save more still by walking to the office if it's nice or using a bus if it's raining and I've got plenty of time)

Bletchley-London Terminals Anytime Day Single: £23.60
London Terminals-Bletchley Off Peak Day Single with NSE discount (no evening restriction): £14.50
Tube contactless single £2.80 x2
Total £43.70, a saving of nearly a tenner on the Travelcard.

Of course I noticed this (particularly two singles being cheaper than an Anytime Day Return, though only just and this is unusual) and many wouldn't. But it does mean that if the Anytime Day Travelcard goes, people will notice these and pay a lot less for that trip.

 

[XAM2175]

As people keep pouting out this isn't some kind of a secret. The main reason is to charge people who use Off Peak Day Travelcards more. Travelcard Seasons aren't in scope (yet).

My comment is directed at people saying that elimination of paper tickets is the purpose. I don't know what you think you're responding to.

 

[jon0844]

What's wrong with that? He wants to save people who live in London money. This policy is likely to achieve that. What other goals do you want the Mayor to pursue? Do you not accept that the influence the Mayor has is trivial anyway given power is centralised in the hands of Ministers?

I have to agree. He has no reason to care about people who moved out of London and commute back in, or worry about tourism when London is still a major draw and very unlikely to stop being so. That bit might be a gamble, if people all boycott London visits - but how likely is that?

We also have to accept the ongoing battles with TfL and the DfT. The latter having made it clear TfL won't get to take over any more lines for London Overground, and also having made various demands of TfL in the last few years due to Covid funding.

 

[Starmill]

My comment is directed at people saying that elimination of paper tickets is the purpose. I don't know what you think you're responding to.

I'm responding to your explanation of the main point, which relies on interpretation of events, by pointing out that there's not much need for that, given we're being told straightforwardly what the priority is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm responding to your explanation of the main point which relies on interpretation of events by pointing out that there's not much need for that given we're being told straightforwardly what the priority is.

Indeed, there's nothing underhand about this - they are doing it to increase income, and they've openly said so.