TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Kite159]

I have noticed that in my situation (Horsham to London Z1-6), tickets will be expensive without the Travelcard as well, as it means having to first buy a £17.60 Off Peak Day Return to London Terminals, then add about a roughly £14.90 Z1-6 daily cap. This makes my travel far more expensive because with an Off Peak Z1-6 Travelcard, I would only pay £19!

Or from Horsham a day return from Horsham to East Croydon* then switching to Oyster/contactless.

Such a thing will be harder for those who travel on trains, which generally are non-stop from London to outside the zones, i.e. SWR on some of the long distance services, nonstop to Woking or even Basingstoke. So effectively anybody travelling from Basingstoke will have the option of going on a slower train to change at Surbiton to exit the station to re-enter on Oyster or paying more money to Clapham/Waterloo. Another example is someone from Stevenage or Milton Keynes who will use an outer boundary travelcard to avoid paying double if they board a fast train.

Get rid of the Travelcard, and certainly for me my trips to London will heavily reduce. For me as I generally split at Basingstoke, a travelcard from Basingstoke is normally ~ £4 more expensive than a Basingstoke - London day return, so if I'm planning to use more than a couple underground trips or go outside zone 1, it will cost a lot more. Splitting at Clapham Junction limits the number of trains you can catch from Basingstoke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For families the solution is to find a way to issue Zip cards or similar at little/no cost. The marginal increase with capping would then probably not be too much of a deterrent.

Zip cards are a faff to get and cost £15 "admin fee", which makes them expensive for occasional visitors.

To apply for a 11-15 Zip Oyster photocard, create or sign in to your photocard web account. (You must use a different email address from any contactless and Oyster account for a standard adult Oyster card.)
You will also need:

• A clear, unaltered colour digital photo of your child which is a .jpg, .bmp or .gif file and less than 6MB
• Details from your child's valid, machine-readable passport to verify their age and identity. All machine-readable passports are accepted, including non-UK passports
• A colour image of the details page from your child's valid, machine-readable passport that is in .png or .jpg format and less than 6MB. This must clearly show the child's photo, name, date of birth and passport number
• A debit or credit card to pay the £15 administration fee

We'll email you if we have to reject your photo or passport image. You will need to upload another to finish your application for your Zip Oyster photocard.
If your child does not have a valid machine-readable passport, you can collect your photocard from a TfL Visitor Centre.

• Apply at least 28 days before your preferred collection date and select a Visitor Centre that is open. Visitor Centre locations and opening times are shown in the application, or call Customer Services 0343 222 1234 (TfL call charges) for advice
• When collecting your card at a Visitor Centre, you'll need to provide proof of your child's age. This should be either your child's passport, ID card from a European Economic Area country or birth certificate. No other documents are accepted

Once your photo and passport image have been accepted, your 11-15 Zip Oyster photocard will usually arrive within two weeks.

11-15 Zip Oyster photocards

Children aged 11-15 can get free and discounted travel on all our transport with a Zip Oyster photocard.

tfl.gov.uk

What is needed is a simple to obtain card even if it's not at quite as good a discount.

 

[JonathanH]

Zip cards require all manner of complexity e.g. letters from school. The replacement needs to just offer half fare without any proof unless you look over 16.

Yes, that is a right nuisance. I imagine that the ultimate effect will be a stealth fare rise for children over 11 to pay adult fares if they don't have a Zip Oyster card, although again this seems one where there will have to be a solution under Project Oval.

Even the Young Visitor Discount looks like a complete nuisance to organise.

 

[WAB]

Yeah, the loss of the £2 Family Travelcard will be a huge cost increase for families. Hopefully the TOCs will consider at least retaining kids for £2 for the journey to London.

The provision for non-London kids is very poor. The Visitor Travelcard really needs changing, to offer a child version and allow the loading on of different sums based on what you're going to do on one trip.

I think a national ITSO photocard system with the holder's postcode and date of birth encoded is needed so the appropriate discount can be obtained from any bus/train/metro in England without so much faff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a national ITSO photocard system with the holder's postcode and date of birth encoded is needed so the appropriate discount can be obtained from any bus/train/metro in England without so much faff.

That would indeed be very useful. Things like school bus passes could also be loaded onto it.

ITSO has never really met its potential.

 

[778]

Absolutely.

The way I see it with all good value and convenient fares is to make the most of them while they last, always having in the back of your mind that they will be abolished at some point, or be subject to a stealth fare rise. It is just how it is.

Do you think the Network Railcard will be abolished soon as well?

 

[Kite159]

Do you think the Network Railcard will be abolished soon as well?

Which would be a good way to kill off leisure travel within the South East by those aged between 30 & 60 who generally travel alone or with different passengers.

But when did the railways ever care about getting bad PR?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you think the Network Railcard will be abolished soon as well?

I suspect it will when Project Oval is fully rolled out, yes. If you think there'll be mass protest, remember that Merseyrail got away with disapplying all Railcards to off peak tickets by introducing their own day tickets with barely any protest at all.

I can also see TfL disapplying all Railcards, they are a National Rail product after all.

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Which would be a good way to kill off leisure travel within the South East by those aged between 30 & 60 who generally travel alone or with different passengers.

But when did the railways ever care about getting bad PR?

The Government cares more about money.

 

[778]

I suspect it will when Project Oval is fully rolled out, yes. If you think there'll be mass protest, remember that Merseyrail got away with disapplying all Railcards to off peak tickets by introducing their own day tickets with barely any protest at all.

I can also see TfL disapplying all Railcards, they are a National Rail product after all.

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The Government cares more about money.

Do you think a labour government would change anything?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you think a labour government would change anything?

Not sure. That might be worth a speculative thread on its own!

 

[778]

Also, while admittedly a bit niche, there's a whole collection of boundary zone options that a travelcard is the cheapest way to do.

Ely to Reading or Southend are two journeys I make fairly often, and the cheapest (straightforward) way to do those at weekends is via a travelcard and a BZ6 extension.

Quite a shame to lose that flexibility and value.

Is the Cross-London Agreement going to be affected?

 

[Sleepy]

TfL say that:


While also telling us that:


I take this to mean that 70% of current day travelcard users will see their fares increase.

So will we able to buy Colchester to Bond Street or Marlow to Whitechapel point to point tickets then ? More chance of a Norwich to Penzance sleeper service being introduced to run through the core I think !!!

 

[JonathanH]

So will we able to buy Colchester to Bond Street or Marlow to Whitechapel point to point tickets then ?

No, although you can already travel on Contactless from Marlow to Whitechapel, or buy a paper ticket from Marlow to Zone U12 London.

This proposal doesn't refer to removing the existing point to point tickets to Underground stations. Elizabeth Line stations in the Core area continue to require the same tickets as those to use the Underground.

 

[Chriso]

Don’t worry just join the natives and barge through the comically easy wide gate and travel for free

Seriously though very disappointing if implemented and another back door increase by the tools in charge

 

[JonathanH]

Do you think a labour government would change anything?

The change will be approved by a Labour mayor, albeit under pressure from the government, who are trying to make the mayor as unpopular as possible.

It is very unlikely that the change would be unwound in the event of a Labour government. One point with all this is that Oyster and Contactless payment is very popular for its convenience.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The “problem” with out-boundary Travelcards is, of course, that they are cheaper than the equivalent tickets purchased separately. And the people on the thread against this proposal are, naturally, against it because the out-boundary Travelcard is cheaper and more convenient than the equivalent tickets purchased separately.

The solution, rather than abolishing the out-boundary Travelcard, would be to revise the pricing. I can’t help but wonder if this is what TfL really want to do, and are consulting on abolishing them so the increased price can be marketed as a “reprieve”. It’s what I’d do.

But in the current form and pricing either/both TfL and the TOC are taking reduced revenue, which isn’t sustainable in the current climate. But if an out-boundary Travelcard becomes (origin to Boundary Zone 6)+(Z1-6 Travelcard), hopefully sense will be seen.

 

[JonathanH]

But if an out-boundary Travelcard becomes (origin to Boundary Zone 6)+(Z1-6 Travelcard), hopefully sense will be seen.

I'm not sure that would do it. One of the benefits of Oyster and Contactless for the operators is the greater amount of data available for allocating revenue. Fare changes are not going to deliver that.

Where Contactless exists outside London, the daily cap is not priced as (origin to Boundary Zone 6)+(Z1-6 Travelcard) but in fact more, because the formula reduces the yield to the mainline operator.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Where Contactless exists outside London, the daily cap is not priced as (origin to Boundary Zone 6)+(Z1-6 Travelcard) but in fact more, because the formula reduces the yield to the mainline operator.

Absolutely, but would TfL care if their share of the cake isn’t reduced? The fares for out-boundary Oyster/contactless are usually set by the TOC, but not in-boundary- hence the value in the East Croydon shuffle, for instance. Clearly TfL don’t care if one does that move.

 

[shakermaker_86]

The biggest group impacted by this change will be anyone living outside London who wants to take a child over 5 into London. TFL currently charge £15 for a Zip card, or you'd have to buy an Oyster card (£7 - or £5 plus p&p if you order in advance) and get a child discount applied. Then you'd have to pay for each journey on top.

For an occasional visit which previously would have been free (many operators run £1 child travelcard tickets), this is going to be a huge disincentive.

Any family with access to a vehicle exempt from the congestion charge (electric or blue badge) would find it massively cheaper just to drive in.

Yes exactly this, this is me and my family in a nutshell. Travelling into London from Bookham (well Fetcham technically) in Surrey at weekends and with my Network Railcard offering the 33% discount makes whole family travel into and around London reasonable, especially as my youngest has just turned 5 and so is now fare paying. Abolishing the day travelcard and getting returns to London Terminals + Oyster PAYG fares to wherever we're travelling within London will result in a potentially large increase in fares, even if we pay £10 each to get both children a 5-10 Oyster card for free travel within London.

This will as Nick mentioned likely result in us either:

- Driving to Worcester Park and parking at my Dad's, who lives 2 minutes from Worcester Park station in a part of Worcester Park just outside the ULEZ, which would result in SWR losing a load of fare revenue from us, and result in additional and avoidable carbon emissions from the car at a time when we really need to be doing all we can to incentivise reducing car travel where possible for the sake of the planet and our air quality
- Buying a return from Bookham to Ewell West (first station in Zone 6 on the route) for everyone, then I run out of the train and tap in each family members Oyster cards on the Oyster Card reader at Ewell West and hope the train doors don't shut on me before doing so, and repeating on the return journey home (impractical in practise)
- We just avoid going into London on weekends, resulting in the children missing out of fun family activities like the London Aquarium or the Natural History museum, Science museum etc., SWR and TFL getting £0 revenue from us and businesses and retailers missing out on our custom during our visit. Multiply this by every individual or group/family who doesn't visit London as a result of the changes.

In my opinion the travelcard shouldn't be abolished until at least Project Oval's rollout is complete, so at least customers like myself within the Project Oval area could make point to point contactless journeys from outside London to within London which could soften the blow of the day travelcard withdrawal if the contactless fares are priced sensibly. I also think with the ULEZ coming in it's a bit of a double whammy for anyone who may have been willing to modally shift to using public transport instead of driving in and paying the ULEZ charge, who would be less incentivised to do so if the rail fares into London increase as a result of the travelcard withdrawal meaning they'll just pay the charge instead and carry on pumping out avoidable carbon emissions.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do you think a labour government would change anything?

Why would it? This proposal is from the Labour Party!

 

[tomuk]

I'd be asking questions about why yours is so high then. MK's is one of the lowest in the country. I'd be quite angry were it at the levels you see in the metropolitan areas, because the services we get are vastly poorer than those areas.

MK is ranked 138 out of 350 for Council Tax. A lot of the London Boroughs, including the two cheapest areas in the country, Wandsworth and Westminster are cheaper. The 200 councils which are more expensive than MK are mainly the shires, Rutland the smallest county being the most expensive.

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I think a national ITSO photocard system with the holder's postcode and date of birth encoded is needed so the appropriate discount can be obtained from any bus/train/metro in England without so much faff.

A national ID card? That won't be popular.

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Just to make everyone aware it appears TfL have taken down some of the related documents to the consultation at about 7pm.

 

[MikeWh]

Why would it? This proposal is from the Labour Party!

Under duress from the conservative run department for transport.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Tell me then, what other type of London public transport tickets can be paid using cash?

The Oyster card is TfL's main backup for the unbanked/cash users. The cards can be bought and topped up using cash.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Just to make everyone aware it appears TfL have taken down some of the related documents to the consultation at about 7pm.

Whilst it appears that the attached documents are lost to history, the original proposal page and FAQs were thankfully cached by Google prior to their removal.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The option is there. You said it wasn't. Why should everyone else subsidide this expensive medium?

Yeah I thought it wasn't the case. My mistake. We all learn something new you know, no need to be rude jeez

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The Oyster card is TfL's main backup for the unbanked/cash users. The cards can be bought and topped up using cash.

You're right that this is certainly a solution, however another poster has correctly pointed out that an issue with oyster is with maximum journey times which would otherwise cause the maximum fare to be charged.

Still opposed to abolishing Z1-6 Travelcards nevertheless.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

however another poster has correctly pointed out that an issue with oyster is with maximum journey times which would otherwise cause the maximum fare to be charged.

Aside from trainspotters, which are an incredibly tiny market in the grand scheme of London, who will actually be hitting the max journey times?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Aside from trainspotters, which are an incredibly tiny market in the grand scheme of London, who will actually be hitting the max journey times?

Well, people who don't know the area too well and mistakenly go a longer way when they realise there's a quicker way? Ok maps are in place to mitigate this but doesn't stop a minority.

Also, it's not just trainspotters. Even enthusiasts like me who like to ride on different kind of lines for fun might hit max journey times. Again we're a minority.

In any case I doubt hitting a max journey time is fare evasion - it just means that the full price is charged?

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Anyways @ThameslinkUser I honestly would be interested to know from you if you personally are in favour of abolishing Z1-6 Travelcards or not, and why you think this.

 

[swt_passenger]

In any case I doubt hitting a max journey time is fare evasion - it just means that the full price is charged?

If you exceed the max journey time you usually get two maximum fares charged, one for the journey that’s started but was timed out, and another for an unresolved journey with a touch out but no touch in.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Both of which can be resolved by TfL for the correct fare. It's a moot point.

 

[MrJeeves]

Just to make everyone aware it appears TfL have taken down some of the related documents to the consultation at about 7pm.

Freedom of Information request time?

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Here's a copy of the possible impacts PDF

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Both of which can be resolved by TfL for the correct fare. It's a moot point.

Who, I would assume, would be less keen if it was an enthusiast travelling for a loop on the circle line and then leaving at the same station again (something I did as a kid with my dad once, for example).