TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[HamworthyGoods]

Under duress from the conservative run department for transport.

Because they couldn’t balance their books at TfL, yes a lot was down to Covid but some was down to an unaffordable fares freeze policy.

 

[crablab]

Here's a copy of the possible impacts PDF

Thanks.

Quoting from the document:

We believe that some customers may benefit from not paying upfront for travel, as they do when buying a Day Travelcard. When using PAYG, customers can pay less, as they only pay for the journeys they actually make. Daily caps on PAYG are less than the price of an equivalent Day Travelcard.

I find this quite disingenuous. TfL are obviously aware that most Travelcards are being bought in conjunction with National Rail tickets ("addon"). Thus, this entire paragraph is invalid.

- most customers do benefit by paying for a (discounted) Travelcard bundled with their rail ticket
- customers would pay more using PAYG (unless they only made a couple of bus journeys, or one single trip in zone 1 - unlikely)
- daily caps are not less than a Day Travelcard, included in a rail ticket

 

[MikeWM]

The Oyster card is TfL's main backup for the unbanked/cash users. The cards can be bought and topped up using cash.

Now requires a fee of £7 to TfL though, per card/family member. Which for many/most people isn't a massive amount of money, but for some will be money they need in order to eat or heat their home.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

TfL will be reading the official responses, not RailUKforums

Obviously! What's the point you're trying to make here? This message makes no sense whatsoever!

P.S. Apologies for me being rude to you earlier - I could have handled the situation in a better way, which I'm doing right now and should have done earlier today.

 

[WAB]

A national ID card? That won't be popular.

No, a national (and very much optional) smartcard.

 

[E27007]

According to the TFL proposal, abolishing the one-day travelcard will generate an additional £40 miilion per annum of revenue:

Why are we proposing this?

We are required to explore this because of conditions of Government funding settlements that have been necessary due to the devastating impact of the pandemic on TfL’s finances. Our funding agreement with government requires TfL to develop and implement changes that will generate between £0.5-£1.0bn per year of additional revenue from 2023.

As part of this, we identified potential changes to fares structures and ticketing that could help contribute to generating this additional income.

One option identified was to withdraw from the Travelcard Agreement, which would have meant TfL would have stopped selling and accepting all Travelcards.

This option is no longer being progressed because funding provided by the Mayor means TfL can continue to meet its financial commitments under the government funding settlements, to keep providing weekly and longer-term travelcards.

The option to withdraw Day Travelcards is estimated to generate approximately £40m of additional revenue per year. This would help contribute to TfL securing and maintaining financial sustainability by generating a new revenue source that is in line with the requirements of Government funding.

 

[nickswift99]

According to thew TFL proposal, abolishing the one-day travelcard will generate an additional £40 miilion per annum of revenue:

Why are we proposing this?

We are required to explore this because of conditions of Government funding settlements that have been necessary due to the devastating impact of the pandemic on TfL’s finances. Our funding agreement with government requires TfL to develop and implement changes that will generate between £0.5-£1.0bn per year of additional revenue from 2023.

As part of this, we identified potential changes to fares structures and ticketing that could help contribute to generating this additional income.

One option identified was to withdraw from the Travelcard Agreement, which would have meant TfL would have stopped selling and accepting all Travelcards.

This option is no longer being progressed because funding provided by the Mayor means TfL can continue to meet its financial commitments under the government funding settlements, to keep providing weekly and longer-term travelcards.

The option to withdraw Day Travelcards is estimated to generate approximately £40m of additional revenue per year. This would help contribute to TfL securing and maintaining financial sustainability by generating a new revenue source that is in line with the requirements of Government funding.

I’d like to understand the assumptions made behind this figure. It’s very rarely the case that changing a system to significantly increase costs results in the expected revenue.

The key point about public transport is that it’s an enabler for people to get somewhere and perform an activity. In the case of London this typically involves additional spending. I’d like to understand what modelling has been undertaken around this and the wider impact to businesses.

 

[JonathanH]

This now appears to be an 'engagement' with stakeholders rather than a 'consultation'.

Engagement to withdraw Day Travelcards

The Mayor is exploring the option of withdrawing Day Travelcards.

If withdrawn, Day Travelcards would no longer be sold or accepted by TfL. Daily pay as you go caps would not be affected, nor would weekly and longer-term Travelcards.

We are engaging with key stakeholders to develop our impact assessment on the potential change.

'Diamond Geezer' has also written on the subject https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/?m=1

The One Day Travelcard was first introduced in 1984.
It may not reach its 40th birthday.

What a difference the One Day Travelcard made back then. It offered the opportunity to pay once and then swan around London within the zones of your choice without all that pesky queuing to buy separate tickets. It also avoided having to have a fixed route, you could just pick and choose or make it up as you went along, even stay out later and make an extra journey without taking an additional hit. That's long been the appeal of the One Day Travelcard - freedom, convenience and value - but advancement in electronic ticketing has mostly taken those advantages away. Now TfL are proposing to withdraw One Day Travelcards once and for all, reasoning that daily capping is generally better value, and bad luck to anyone who'll actually end up paying more.

Ends with a simple conclusion.

This is reducing convenience to raise revenue, pure and simple.

 

[duncanp]

This now appears to be an 'engagement' with stakeholders rather than a 'consultation'.

Doesn't make any difference really.

TfL "consultations" are virtually meaningless, with the outcome more or less pre-determined at the start.

Does anyone seriously believe that One Day Travelcards will be retained as a result of this so called "..engagement..", or that the proposal will not be implemented until a suitable alternative is in place?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone seriously believe that One Day Travelcards will be retained as a result of this so called "..engagement..", or that the proposal will not be implemented until a suitable alternative is in place?

No. In TfL's view there is already a suitable alternative in place.

TfL's question is around who is most affected. If that is people from the Home Counties who currently use railcards, that won't matter to them one bit.

 

[Joe Paxton]

This now appears to be an 'engagement' with stakeholders rather than a 'consultation'.

I do wonder to what extent this consultation / engagement is a partly a (clumsy / forceful depending on viewpoint) negotiating exercise - that is, TfL negotiating with RDG / GBRTT / DfT to increase their share of the Travelcard pot.

Also, perhaps TfL making the point that they have a huge maintenance liability for the (CCST) mechanical magnetic stripe ticket readers in gates across their station estate - mag stripe ticket readers which now get far less use since the introduction of Oyster and contactless.

Then there's the broader issue of the (limited) future of CCSTs across National Rail, which informed posters on here say are on their way out.

The question then is in a CCST-less future, how do you issue Day Travelcards?

In the Netherlands (and similar is done elsewhere), NS issue one-time use 'smart' tickets as cardboard tickets with RFID chip integrated in them which then scan on the readers like a smart card. However this is environmentally very wasteful (they're non-recycleable), the ticket stock itself is more expensive, and in the context of the National Rail network here it would require all NR stations that sell Day Travelcards to be equipped with new ticket issuing equipment just for this purpose.

One can perhaps see the dilemma TfL are in regarding this. And if anyone says e-tickets... well, I wonder how many tens or even hundreds of different people might end up using the same Day Travelcard e-ticket in a day!

Regardless of all these factors, I don't really want the Day Travelcard to die!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Because they couldn’t balance their books at TfL, yes a lot was down to Covid but some was down to an unaffordable fares freeze policy.

Entirely incorrect. It's the loss of an operating subsidy that caused financial fallout. The fare freeze was roughly a total £600m of potential foregone revenue. During the pandemic, it was costing £600m per month to keep TfL running as per Gov requirements of a full service. So no fare freeze at its stated value would've allowed TfL to go a whole 1 extra month before being back in the exact same situation as before. The operating subsidy scrapped by Johnson/Osborne was £800m/annum. The lack of this, similar to the current funding settlement, prevents long term planning which is ultimately what leads to higher costs and thus worsened finances compared woth £600m of foregone revenue that was supposedly made up for with efficiences.

 

[Mojo]

Constant attempt to increase fares (both directly and indirectly) and only caring about money and revenue. No wonder so many people say that this is Rip off Britain

People who think the UK is a rip off clearly don’t visit many other countries.

 

[Edsmith]

Entirely incorrect. It's the loss of an operating subsidy that caused financial fallout. The fare freeze was roughly a total £600m of potential foregone revenue. During the pandemic, it was costing £600m per month to keep TfL running as per Gov requirements of a full service. So no fare freeze at its stated value would've allowed TfL to go a whole 1 extra month before being back in the exact same situation as before. The operating subsidy scrapped by Johnson/Osborne was £800m/annum. The lack of this, similar to the current funding settlement, prevents long term planning which is ultimately what leads to higher costs and thus worsened finances compared woth £600m of foregone revenue that was supposedly made up for with efficiences.

No you're entirely incorrect and the rest of the country shouldn't have to pay for gimmicks like free travel for children.
Anyway this is supposed to be about the travelcard proposal.

 

[zero]

Zip cards require all manner of complexity e.g. letters from school.

No they don't, they require a passport only. If the child doesn't have one then you can present a birth certificate plus parent's proof of address at a post office.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

People who think the UK is a rip off clearly don’t visit many other countries.

I've travelled to a lot of countries, and can think of even worse, more rip off places (Paris for example), however my point is that the UK can still be a rip off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

No, a national (and very much optional) smartcard.

So a British equivalent of an OV Chipkaart then?

 

[infobleep]

No. In TfL's view there is already a suitable alternative in place.

TfL's question is around who is most affected. If that is people from the Home Counties who currently use railcards, that won't matter to them one bit.

Perhaps someone it some people can take them to court, as is happening with ULEZ.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now requires a fee of £7 to TfL though, per card/family member. Which for many/most people isn't a massive amount of money, but for some will be money they need in order to eat or heat their home.

I doubt people whose finances are that tight will be taking many day trips to London. However what it will encourage is using e.g. Uber instead, which is quite good value per person if you've got a whole family of four in the car. Now it is true that a full car makes good use of road space, but it'd be better if the car wasn't there at all.

A thought regarding Anytime Day Travelcards - these are often very poor value if the person using them is just making one return Zone 1 Tube journey from their London terminus (as most people going to work will do), and even worse if it's a bus journey. From Bletchley it is considerably cheaper to buy separate tickets* and use Oyster/contactless, though some may use the Travelcard because it makes an expenses claim easier.

* If you've got a Railcard, single in, Railcard single back and Oyster/contactless is cheaper still. Applies to quite a few WCML stations.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

No you're entirely incorrect and the rest of the country shouldn't have to pay for gimmicks like free travel for children.
Anyway this is supposed to be about the travelcard proposal.

Is London net-positive or negative in tax receipts?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I do wonder to what extent this consultation / engagement is a partly a (clumsy / forceful depending on viewpoint) negotiating exercise - that is, TfL negotiating with RDG / GBRTT / DfT to increase their share of the Travelcard pot.

Also, perhaps TfL making the point that they have a huge maintenance liability for the (CCST) mechanical magnetic stripe ticket readers in gates across their station estate - mag stripe ticket readers which now get far less use since the introduction of Oyster and contactless.

Then there's the broader issue of the (limited) future of CCSTs across National Rail, which informed posters on here say are on their way out.

The question then is in a CCST-less future, how do you issue Day Travelcards?

In the Netherlands (and similar is done elsewhere), NS issue one-time use 'smart' tickets as cardboard tickets with RFID chip integrated in them which then scan on the readers like a smart card. However this is environmentally very wasteful (they're non-recycleable), the ticket stock itself is more expensive, and in the context of the National Rail network here it would require all NR stations that sell Day Travelcards to be equipped with new ticket issuing equipment just for this purpose.

One can perhaps see the dilemma TfL are in regarding this. And if anyone says e-tickets... well, I wonder how many tens or even hundreds of different people might end up using the same Day Travelcard e-ticket in a day!

Regardless of all these factors, I don't really want the Day Travelcard to die!

Some of these are all perfectly valid points as to why one might be in favour of abolishing Z1-6 Travelcards, however I'm still of the opinion that the benefit and convenience of Travelcards outweigh the minor inconveniences of the cost of producing paper, maintaining gatelines etc.

Btw, what does CCST mean?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of these are all perfectly valid points as to why one might be in favour of abolishing Z1-6 Travelcards, however I'm still of the opinion that the benefit and convenience of Travelcards outweigh the minor inconveniences of the cost of producing paper, maintaining gatelines etc.

If TfL want to bin the magstripe readers (bar at mainline interchanges, pending another solution to that), and I can see why they might, the railway already has an answer - issue outboundary Travelcards only on ITSO. It's already possible.

Btw, what does CCST mean?

Credit Card Sized Tickets.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think it is ridiculous, I for one won't be traveling to London.
It's very hypocritical of TfL to introduce the ULEZ zone, and then increase fares like this. Basically dissuading anyone from making daytrips to London.

The day travelcard fare without a railcard is ridiculously expensive, my mate was outraged when he saw the price!

Every other city in Europe has a daily zonal ticket, I don't see why London doesn't have it, it I also has the most expensive fares of any European city, it's almost as if TfL don't want any visitors unless you're a rich American riding round in taxis

 

[SouthEastBuses]

If TfL want to bin the magstripe readers (bar at mainline interchanges, pending another solution to that), and I can see why they might, the railway already has an answer - issue outboundary Travelcards only on ITSO. It's already possible.



Credit Card Sized Tickets.

Smartcards like Oyster or Ov Chipkaart can be a good alternative, but the problem is the cost of buying one before buying the ticket to be loaded on the smartcard, which would be of no use to occasional London travellers.

Additionally, I don't think smartcards can be issued from ticket machines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

I think it is ridiculous, I for one won't be traveling to London.
It's very hypocritical of TfL to introduce the ULEZ zone, and then increase fares like this. Basically dissuading anyone from making daytrips to London.

The day travelcard fare without a railcard is ridiculously expensive, my mate was outraged when he saw the price!

Every other city in Europe has a daily zonal ticket, I don't see why London doesn't have it, it I also has the most expensive fares of any European city, it's almost as if TfL don't want any visitors unless you're a rich American riding round in taxis

I agree except for the last point, I thought the Z1-6 Travelcard was London's daily zonal ticket?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Additionally, I don't think smartcards can be issued from ticket machines

Oyster can be issued from almost any LU POM. Additionally, credit on Oyster doesn’t expire meaning the cost of the card should be a one time thing allowing greater savings even if only N occasional traveller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Smartcards like Oyster or Ov Chipkaart can be a good alternative, but the problem is the cost of buying one before buying the ticket to be loaded on the smartcard, which would be of no use to occasional London travellers.

The cost of the TOC smartcards (all ITSO) is either zero or minimal. Merseytravel's for instance is a quid.

Additionally, I don't think smartcards can be issued from ticket machines.

True, but they aren't exactly hard to get hold of, and it is possible to modify TVMs to issue them, TfL ones issue Oyster cards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

Oyster can be issued from almost any LU POM. Additionally, credit on Oyster doesn’t expire meaning the cost of the card should be a one time thing allowing greater savings even if only N occasional traveller.

Never understood why it doesn't expire, because TfL will now indefinitely have liabilities on their accounts from cards which have been thrown in the bin and so will never be cashed in. Avoiding that, not catching people out, is the reason store vouchers only typically last a year. Though I agree it's handy for occasional users, some of whom might as well just order say a Visitor Oyster with £50 on it and just use it until it runs out over many years.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Oyster can be issued from almost any LU POM. Additionally, credit on Oyster doesn’t expire meaning the cost of the card should be a one time thing allowing greater savings even if only N occasional traveller.

Ahh that's good to know then, because I don't live in London I've never used one so that's why I mistakenly thought about smartcards not being able to be issue on a TVM (they certainly can't on Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs down here in Sussex or Oxfordshire, but I doubt TfL uses Scheidt & Bachmann)

 

[jon81uk]

No it wouldn't. Parking in London at weekends in Zone 1 can be cheap (even free), so you'd use your car to park close to your destination(s) and avoid public transport altogether.

Although I think the driving into London would be more lost revenue for TOCs than for TfL. Many would people drive into zone two and then pick up a TfL service from there, instead of using a National Rail service and then continuing on TfL.

The biggest advantage of out-boundary travelcards is its bundled with the cost of the train to London and is often cheaper than the rail fare plus the TfL cap. Off-peak I load it to a smart card, but super off-peak is paper only for some reason.

I rarely use them as my work commute is cheaper as rail fare plus two LU journeys on contactless, but when visiting friends at the weekend I've got a travelcard as it was cheaper than the mix of rail, TfL and rail I needed to get to them. My alternative is to drive to Epping and pick up the Underground from there, which means TfL gets all my money and Greater Anglia gets none, issue is if I drive I can't then drink alcohol.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

Because they couldn’t balance their books at TfL, yes a lot was down to Covid but some was down to an unaffordable fares freeze policy.

No it was the government insisting that TfL had to fund everything (including roads) from fares collected and removing the grant. Then during covid insisting on a full service costing significiantly more than the fares collected.

You are trying to blame a flood on a dripping tap when its the river of covid which caused the flood.

 

[Mojo]

What is needed is a simple to obtain card even if it's not at quite as good a discount.

From the same page you have linked, it is possible to get a 50% discount set for a short period for children age 11-15 at LU & LO stations and most visitor centres.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the same page you have linked, it is possible to get a 50% discount set for a short period for children age 11-15 at LU & LO stations and most visitor centres.

Certainly this can be done, but if you're taking a large group to London obtaining say 30 cards and getting the flag set and loading each with credit is an almighty faff compared to obtaining a Group Day Travelcard or even a load of separate paper outboundary cards from a TVM.

It is absolutely possible to do all these things, but without the Travelcard it is made much, much more awkward. I'll certainly be feeding back that as part of this change there needs to be a vastly streamlined way to do this for families and groups.

 

[MikeWM]

I doubt people whose finances are that tight will be taking many day trips to London.

True enough, that was a more general comment about the concept of Oyster being an alternative to cash payment, rather than about this specific proposal.

Back on this specific proposal, having briefly crunched some numbers via brfares, I can see TfL losing quite a bit of money from me as a result of this. Conversely, Greater Anglia in particular will be getting a bigger slice of my money. Eg. instead of doing Ely->Southend via a travelcard and a boundary ticket, giving TfL the travelcard slice, I'll do separate tickets to/from Liverpool Street, giving TfL nothing.