TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[JonathanH]

Presumably alongside this there'll also be something done regarding cross London transfer and outboundary period Travelcards will be ITSO only? If not, the potentially huge saving from decommissioning all the magstripe kit won't be realised?

That isn't clear from the consultation wording. Clearly, there has been previous speculation on this forum about the withdrawal of cross London transfer, and I am a bit surprised it hasn't been done all at once. Project Oval may remove quite a lot of cross-London transfer journeys on the current structure in any case.

Would removing Day Travelcards from the Travelcard agreement mean the Mayor has greater flexibility in terms of setting fares?

We are only exploring withdrawing Day Travelcards from the Travelcard Agreement, so we would still need to ensure we have integrated fares with National Rail for daily and weekly caps.

The price of longer period travelcards are agreed between TfL and Rail Operators once fare increases have been set by DfT.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Have you really never been to Exeter, Edinburgh, Cardiff or Portsmouth? These cities all have comprehensive urban bus networks and a small local rail network. They're all enormous tourism draws in their region. None offer integrated tickets. Of course, I'd say that's an indictment of poor planning and part of the reason for the very high car use in these areas.

Cardiff I believe does have an integrated bus-train ticket, and best of all, it's valid for use anywhere in the South Wales valleys.

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That is literally the whole point of this. They need to raise revenue as per gov funding. It's not a secret agenda

I'm not saying it's a secret agenda at all, however I have a right to completely oppose the proposals.

As you say, it's all about money money money, in the rich man's world!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

however I have a right to completely oppose the proposals.

TfL will be reading the official responses, not RailUKforums

 

[JonathanH]

Cardiff I believe does have an integrated bus-train ticket, and best of all, it's valid for use anywhere in the South Wales valleys.

London would retain a bus-underground-tram-train ticket under this proposal, just on Oyster and Contactless.

In due course, that could be what the Cardiff ticket becomes. The Sheffield bus-tram-ticket is a smartcard product for example.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably alongside this there'll also be something done regarding cross London transfer and outboundary period Travelcards will be ITSO only? If not, the potentially huge saving from decommissioning all the magstripe kit won't be realised?

Not currently as this proposal only concerns Day Travelcards.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The barcode on an e-ticket means that usage can be tracked far more easily. People who commit multiple fare offences can be tracked easier by fraud investigators.

That still means one can fare evade (not that I'm advocating it btw - I'm completely opposed to any form of fare evasion), just that it would be done in a different way.

 

[nickswift99]

The biggest group impacted by this change will be anyone living outside London who wants to take a child over 5 into London. TFL currently charge £15 for a Zip card, or you'd have to buy an Oyster card (£7 - or £5 plus p&p if you order in advance) and get a child discount applied. Then you'd have to pay for each journey on top.

For an occasional visit which previously would have been free (many operators run £1 child travelcard tickets), this is going to be a huge disincentive.

Any family with access to a vehicle exempt from the congestion charge (electric or blue badge) would find it massively cheaper just to drive in.

 

[Starmill]

Cardiff I believe does have an integrated bus-train ticket, and best of all, it's valid for use anywhere in the South Wales valleys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==



I'm not saying it's a secret agenda at all, however I have a right to completely oppose the proposals.

As you say, it's all about money money money, in the rich man's world!

The Explore Cardiff Capital ticket isn't valid on buses. The other ticket you mention is so expensive nobody just travelling in and around Cardiff would buy it.

 

[JonathanH]

The biggest group impacted by this change will be anyone living outside London who wants to take a child over 5 into London. TFL currently charge £15 for a Zip card, or you'd have to buy an Oyster card (£7) and get a child discount applied. Then you'd have to pay for each journey on top.

For an occasional visit which previously would have been free (many operators run £1 child travelcard tickets), this is going to be a huge disincentive.

Strictly child over 10 as accompanied children are free on TfL services up to age 11. They aren't free on most NR services but that isn't TfL's problem.

 

[Starmill]

In due course, that could be what the Cardiff ticket becomes.

This is not very likely because currently the paper version isn't valid on any buses at all, only on TfW trains. The pay as you go trial will only be valid on Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus, and on trains. It's very unlike London or the Travelcard.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Any family with access to a vehicle exempt from the congestion charge (electric or blue badge) would find it massively cheaper just to drive in.

I don't agree. The extremely cheap (£1-2) fares will still exist for the NR portion of the journeys into London. The cost difference will be NR vs driving + parking, as with both you'll then have to pay for TfL services. Driving doesn't mean you can get to everything and anything with no cost, even with no congestion or ULEZ.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Constant attempt to increase fares (both directly and indirectly) and only caring about money and revenue. No wonder so many people say that this is Rip off Britain

 

[SWT_USER]

It's not entirely unreasonable that those who live outside London and so don't pay its very high Council Tax to fund TfL (in part) might pay more. Tourist taxes of various types are near enough universal worldwide, from levies on hotel stays to "locals'" prices.

I'm in Surrey (right on the border with a London borough) and have a higher council tax than the London borough.

I'm already penalised by a disproportionately higher fare to for my commute than the Zone 6 station one stop further on, this makes my off peak weekend travel more expensive too.

Much like with the Ulez, TFL / the mayor won't care at all as I have no power to vote him out.

 

[JonathanH]

Constant attempt to increase fares and only caring about money and revenue. No wonder so many people say that this is Rip off Britain

They care about not going bust, and don't think this will impact many users.

Set out your case in the consultation with lots of clear examples of why it will cause you hardship.

 

[nickswift99]

I don't agree. The extremely cheap (£1-2) fares will still exist for the NR portion of the journeys into London. The cost difference will be NR vs driving + parking, as with both you'll then have to pay for TfL services. Driving doesn't mean you can get to everything and anything with no cost, even with no congestion or ULEZ.

But you'll have to buy an Oyster or Zip card for each child on top of the fares. So the net difference could be disproportionately large.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They care about not going bust, and don't think this will impact many users.

Sorry Jonathan, but people like @SWT_USER and @nickswift99 have just proven you wrong.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't agree. The extremely cheap (£1-2) fares will still exist for the NR portion of the journeys into London.

Will they remain available? One of the great unknowns about Project Oval is how it will cope with fares for groups travelling together. More information in 2024 I imagine.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

But you'll have to buy an Oyster or Zip card for each child on top of the fares. So the net difference could be disproportionately large.

That'll be the case regardless of driving or NR.

 

[RJ]

What is the point in scrapping these?
Very useful if you want to go spotting in London for example.

To raise revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm in Surrey (right on the border with a London borough) and have a higher council tax than the London borough.

I'm already penalised by a disproportionately higher fare to for my commute than the Zone 6 station one stop further on, this makes my off peak weekend travel more expensive too.

Much like with the Ulez, TFL / the mayor won't care at all as I have no power to vote him out.

I'd be asking questions about why yours is so high then. MK's is one of the lowest in the country. I'd be quite angry were it at the levels you see in the metropolitan areas, because the services we get are vastly poorer than those areas.

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry Jonathan, but people like @SWT_USER and @nickswift99 have just proven you wrong.

I totally agree that it will cost users more. I will respond to the consultation to register my disappointment and disapproval but it won't make any difference to a decision that has basically been made.

I am only pointing out that they claim to have good grounds for doing this, not that I think they are making a good decision for users.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I'd be asking questions about why yours is so high then. MK's is one of the lowest in the country.

Surrey is known for being very expensive, you know!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Sorry Jonathan, but people like @SWT_USER and @nickswift99 have just proven you wrong.

They happily admit such cirumstances exist, but as a proportion of total journeys, it's minimal.

Documents | Proposal to withdraw Day Travelcards | Have Your Say Transport for London

What we are considering We are exploring the option of withdrawing Day Travelcards. If withdrawn, Day Travelcards would no longer be sold or accepted by TfL. Daily pay as you go caps would not be affected, nor would weekly and longer-term Travelcards. How you can help

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

We have also identified the following possible negative impacts of the proposal, particularly those
travelling into London from outside:
Use of Railcards
Customers who use Railcards to get one-third off an off-peak Day Travelcard would no longer be
able to do so. They would still need to add their Railcard to a registered Oyster card to get one-
third off off-peak fares. If they do not have an Oyster card, they would need to pay £7 to get one.
Disabled Persons Railcard
Customers with a Disabled Persons Railcard would no longer be able to buy a discounted Off-peak
Day Travelcard for an accompanying carer/companion. Depending on the zones the Travelcard is
bought for, an additional cost of from £5.20 to £5.60 would be incurred, relative to PAYG.
Paper tickets
Customers who do not have access to Oyster or contactless to use PAYG would need to buy paper
single/return tickets. This would make travel more expensive.
For example, an adult daily price cap in zones 1-5 is £13.90, which is reached by making four
journeys. Buying four single tickets is £26.80, making an additional expense of £12.90. Any further
travel would cost £6.70 per ticket.
Family Travelcards
Families who benefit from buying a Family Travelcard to travel into and around London would no
longer be able to do so. Families would need to buy individual tickets to travel to/from a London
Terminus and adopt PAYG with contactless or Oyster. Depending on the size of the family they
could be paying more for their travel than they would if buying the Family Travelcard. It would also
mean that travel would become less fluid, which may make coming into London less attractive.

 

[nickswift99]

That'll be the case regardless of driving or NR.

No it wouldn't. Parking in London at weekends in Zone 1 can be cheap (even free), so you'd use your car to park close to your destination(s) and avoid public transport altogether.

 

[Starmill]

They care about not going bust, and don't think this will impact many users.

This isn't quite correct. What they're saying is it's not going to affect many residents of London, and they're likely right about that.

The effect on residents of the rest of England, and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will be much larger.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

No it wouldn't. Parking in London at weekends in Zone 1 can be cheap (even free), so you'd use your car to park close to your destination(s) and avoid public transport altogether.

Going to London for one specific thing and not requiring any use of public transportation as an entire family is such a niche example I'm happy it has been ignored.

 

[nickswift99]

They happily admit such cirumstances exist, but as a proportion of total journeys, it's minimal.

Documents | Proposal to withdraw Day Travelcards | Have Your Say Transport for London

What we are considering We are exploring the option of withdrawing Day Travelcards. If withdrawn, Day Travelcards would no longer be sold or accepted by TfL. Daily pay as you go caps would not be affected, nor would weekly and longer-term Travelcards. How you can help

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Go and stand on the London platforms at Reading at the start of the summer school holidays. It's packed with families visiting attractions in London. Those who don't hold a family railcard will all pretty much be on Family Travelcards.

 

[JonathanH]

No it wouldn't. Parking in London at weekends in Zone 1 can be cheap (even free), so you'd use your car to park close to your destination(s) and avoid public transport altogether.

TfL's economists will have taken a view on the likelihood of people choosing to drive into London rather than pay a higher fare, and presumably calculated that modal shift will be limited.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Go and stand on the London platforms at Reading at the start of the summer school holidays. It's packed with families visiting attractions in London. Those who don't hold a family railcard will all pretty much be on Family Travelcards.

Yeah, the loss of the £2 Family Travelcard will be a huge cost increase for families. Hopefully the TOCs will consider at least retaining kids for £2 for the journey to London.

The provision for non-London kids is very poor. The Visitor Travelcard really needs changing, to offer a child version and allow the loading on of different sums based on what you're going to do on one trip.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I totally agree that it will cost users more. I will respond to the consultation to register my disappointment and disapproval but it won't make any difference to a decision that has basically been made.

I am only pointing out that they claim to have good grounds for doing this, not that I think they are making a good decision for users.

I think I should do the same thing as well. Even though I don't live in London, I do go there every now and again.

but it won't make any difference to a decision that has basically been made.

Unfortunately, my fear is that this exact quote above could prove you right.

I am only pointing out that they claim to have good grounds for doing this, not that I think they are making a good decision for users.

Don't worry, you haven't done anything wrong and, as you correctly said, you were just simply pointing out reasons as to why TfL claim this is a good idea. The way I see it is that I just don't trust what TfL, the government and media say, and I'm always prepared to question things if I feel suspicious about their decisions.