TfL to scrap paper tickets

[jon81uk]

There seems to be a lot of discussion on this thread about "solutions" to things we don't even know if they are problems or not yet. There is a year yet and the slide shown in the orignal talk slide stated TfL are exploring options for travelcards for removal in 2023. there might be some new option such as the "disposible" RFID card coming for 2024.

But I expect outboundary travelcards will mainly move towards ITSO, the only times I've got one I just loaded it to the Greater Anglia smartcard from my phone.

 

[Haywain]

the slide shown in the orignal talk slide stated TfL are exploring options for travelcards for removal in 2023.

The slide says "Explore options for Travelcard". The word removal does not feature. That doesn't mean it's not an option though.

 

[jon81uk]

The slide says "Explore options for Travelcard". The word removal does not feature. That doesn't mean it's not an option though.

Yes sorry, that was kind of the point I was making, there is a lot of discussion on this thread, but we have no insight into what options TfL are exploring and what tickets will or won't be removed, only that they want to do away with magnetic stripes.

 

[miklcct]

As Farringdon is a valid Maltese Cross station I expect the ticket will work the barrier. Can anyone confirm that?

Anyway, by buying a ticket from Finsbury Park there is no doubt about passing the gateline as using the street level is a perfect valid way to change between the tube and the Thameslink.

I tried using my ticket at Farringdon Elizabeth line (Barbican entrance) and it didn't work the barrier with code 13. The staff let me out immediately after seeing my ticket to Cricklewood.

 

[E759]

I regularly use Outboundary Day Travelcard on ITSO, GTR Key. Only the absence of the Super Off-Peak ITSO ticket, suggested on this forum to be due to gate logic limitations, prevents me from abandoning paper Travelcards.

I recently accidentally used an un-activated Travelcard on my Key (due to a barrier issue at my origin I think - code 94): As I have KeyGo on the ITSO I was presented at the end of the day with missing taps for origin and destination. What was interesting to me was all the recoded taps for all the underground stations I'd used that day. So near, but yet so far from a solution!

 

[Sm5]

I don’t think it would be acceptable or desirable to abolish cross London transfers on through tickets.

As for Travelcards they cannot really be issued as an e-ticket because the barcode could be distributed to others and a Travelcard allows unlimited travel during its validity so you could have multiple copies of the same barcode being used across London at the same time.

I think the long term desire will be contactless and daily capping although I do hope it will be possible to load a one day Travelcard onto a smartcard.

How does that work in conjunction with friends and family railcards ?

today I can buy a travelcard for myself plus a child, two paper cards with FnF discount.

Do child fares simply dissapear ? Does fnf discount travel no longer apply in London ?

whilst an adult can tap in / out using a credit card, children cannot.. they are too young for credit cards, and often for phones too.. even if you had them, how do you link them with fnf and a purchase…

fnf discounted travelcards cannot today be sold on oyster.
The saving today for 1 adult 1 child is around £10 saving today over using an oystercard at daily caps, its nearly 80% less than using an oystercard, even more if the kids are forced to adult rates.

losing that loses a huge incentive for family travel around the capital…

Also unrelated, but without a paper travel card, being an enthusiast on stations is going to encounter a huge amount of hassle, if its time based access requiring touchin / out at different locations… any thoughts advice on that, besides driving to and using overbridges instead ?

Feels like theres a risk of a huge step backwards in travel flexibility here, just as other parts of the UK are catching up to Londons greatest travel success London could go back to the dark ages of travel… people arent stupid, they’ll get stung once and there after drive instead.

 

[yorkie]

whilst an adult can tap in / out using a credit card, children cannot.. they are too young for credit cards.

But not debit cards, though in practice most won't have them.

 

[JonathanH]

Do child fares simply dissapear ? Does fnf discount travel no linger apply in London ?

On TfL routes, accompanied children up to age 11 go free. On routes with Oyster, a child has the option of an Zip Oyster Card, which gives access to Child fares.

TfL have this helpful map for 5 to 10 year olds - https://content.tfl.gov.uk/free-travel-areas-without-oyster-adult-accompanying-map.pdf


Within London, the Friends and Family discount effectively only exists on travelcards now and for travel into London from outside, as the paper point-to-point fares remaining in London are at Anytime rates.

 

[Hadders]

Under 11s travel free on TfL services and I'd bet a majority of 11-15 year olds have a debit card these days (and a mobile phone).

Family & Friends discount will probably still need to rely on paper tickets but it's also worth remembering that a Child Visitor Oyster Card can be obtained from Underground stations and TfL Visitor Centres which gives child rate discount for up to 14 days

 

[Joe Paxton]

Under 11s travel free on TfL services and I'd bet a majority of 11-15 year olds have a debit card these days (and a mobile phone).

I'm not so sure about that. (I just had a quick look for stats but didn't find anything obvious.)

One possible issue thing to bear in mind re children and bank accounts is that I think the absence of bank branches is actually something if an impediment to youngsters opening bank accounts (taking into account the issue of proving identity and documentary evidence etc).

Family & Friends discount will probably still need to rely on paper tickets but it's also worth remembering that a Child Visitor Oyster Card can be obtained from Underground stations and TfL Visitor Centres which gives child rate discount for up to 14 days

Just worth noting for the sake of clarity that the Young Visitor discount is not itself a specific Oyster card, rather it is a discount flag that can be set on a regular Oyster card.

 

[Sm5]

Thanks but both replies ignore the fnf discount element… which is substantial.

fnf makes it substantially cheaper than oyster today, for family travel around London, which is the reason the fnf card exists.. to promote family travel.

A child discount oyster and 100% adult fare Oyster, with caps, does not come close to an fnf travelcard cost.


is that simply to be wiped away ?, family unfriendly railway ?

 

[Ediswan]

One possible issue thing to bear in mind re children and bank accounts is that I think the absence of bank branches is actually something if an impediment to youngsters opening bank accounts (taking into account the issue of proving identity and documentary evidence etc).

I took a quick look at the Lloyds 11-15 account currently being advertised. The application process appears to be online..

 

[jon81uk]

Under 11s travel free on TfL services and I'd bet a majority of 11-15 year olds have a debit card these days (and a mobile phone).

I'm not so sure about that. (I just had a quick look for stats but didn't find anything obvious.)

I had a debit card age 13 almost 30 years ago back in the 90s.

 

[Sm5]

Something interesting happened for me this weekend, as a family using fnf for travel, i noted the fare for our journey, and cost of taxi from Victoria to our destination was actually cheaper to use uber, from home (zone 5) to destination (zone 1), than buying ordinary tickets with fnf discount, and use a taxi on arrival.

it had the added benefit of being door to door, and on demand. Journey was comparable to the rail / taxi alternative travel times too.

That its already cheaper, more convenient to use uber as a family on some out & back trips to the capital at evening off peak times, is something noteworthy for the future.

losing the travelcard pretty much compounds it to seeking alternative transport at certain hours / scenarios.

Uber is getting very competitive in London… £25 in my case.. it would have cost us that same amount in fares from zone 5 to London and taxi from Victoria to Belgravia…. and its Electric cars too.

I also weigh that up against London nights out where by late services on my line now end before last orders in central London.. ive not liked having to race to East Croydon and take a £25 taxi from their to home instead… I, like other Londoners are learning that cost effective alternatives to rail now exist… a £25 uber from London to my front door, giving me a later night in London, and still being under 1 hour is simply a no brainer to the East Croydon dash in the future.

Rail might think they hold all the cards on Londoners travel plans, but they dont… Ive noted many times that traditional Thursday-Saturday night “Londoners nights out” trains are simply much quieter than they used to be… its becoming a declining rail system in London… they need to be upping their game, not under mining it… DFT needs to hire some commercial minds rather than just accountants, and a government think tank may well get benefit of a study to see how the impact of Londons night life economics is being affected by changing travel plans on railways… it may well be Uber is the future and its time to cut much more of Londons services if its just simply uneconomic…. Is GBR at risk of becoming nothing more than BR of the 1970’s ?

paper tickets… thats the least of the issue.. dont under estimate the brain of the customer… the saving may seem obvious, the ripple impct can go much furtherr.

 

[Meerkat]

I also weigh that up against London nights out where by late services on my line now end before last orders in central London.. ive not liked having to race to East Croydon and take a £25 taxi from their to home instead… I, like other Londoners are learning that cost effective alternatives to rail now exist… a £25 uber from London to my front door, giving me a later night in London, and still being under 1 hour is simply a no brainer to the East Croydon dash in the future.

That would be impressive for a late night Uber. Give them time but the trains don't wait until you are at the station then say "Actually we are really busy at the moment so it will cost you £50 more than normal.

 

[jon0844]

Surge pricing makes Uber and others a high risk venture if you really think you'll always get a cheap taxi. They often do incentives for new customers, or customers who haven't used their services for a while, but they're not charities.

Also, I got increasingly frustrated with drivers who are using multiple taxi apps and will gladly cancel your booking if a better one comes along. So try ordering a taxi at certain times of the day and you may think a taxi is nearby (you even know the name of the driver and the car) and then, sorry, gone.

But good luck to anyone who has more success and isn't left high and dry one day (or more likely night).

 

[Sm5]

Ymmv.

Thing is.. a precedent was created, and the train just fell from without question 1st place, to fall back 2nd position “just in case”.

I’m more than biased towards railways, (we all are if we use this forum), which means i’m probably late in joining this particular “uber” party, and the damage to revenue may already have been long done for those who have no loyalty for railways whatsoever and simply focus on whatever transport mode meets their cost level.

But if changes induced by removing paper tickets reduces my ability to use railways yet further, even I a hardened enthusiast, has found another way out for the family going forwards… i’m sure others are also doing so. Which means railways arent helping themselves and risk alienating even those biased for them, further away… then that cannot be a good thing for revenue and risks inflicting more damage than the savings it offers If its not well thought out.

Thing is Uber is obviously hunting the london suburban market and railways as a target with fares like that… if my late night train was still there, I would never have bothered looking now its suddenly become an option to try before any group journey or planned later night… it could become default day option too if planned changes to paper tickets doubles my fnf travel costs… tfl needs to realise the London commuter has options, including staying at home…its no longer the dictator it was.

 

[JonathanH]

But if changes induced by removing paper tickets reduces my ability to use railways yet further, even I a hardened enthusiast, has found another way out for the family going forwards… i’m sure others are also doing so. Which means railways arent helping themselves and risk alienating even those biased for them, further away… then that cannot be a good thing for revenue and risks inflicting more damage than the savings it offers If its not well thought out.

Thing is Uber is obviously hunting the london suburban market and railways as a target with fares like that… if my late night train was still there, I would never have bothered looking now its suddenly become an option to try before any group journey or planned later night… it could become default day option too if planned changes to paper tickets doubles my fnf travel costs… tfl needs to realise the London commuter has options, including staying at home…its no longer the dictator it was.

You are right to an extent, but for people travelling alone, Oyster and Contactless make travel much easier, so it means that those passengers are more likely to use the train.

The disconnect is between TfL's approach to child fares and the approach of the National Rail operators. TfL have rendered use of the F&F railcard totally unnecessary in London by abolishing charges for children under 10 and offering very cheap fares for children between 11 and 15. National Rail seems unwilling to give up that revenue, despite the fact it is often as low as £1 where 'Kids for a Quid' offers exist. (Unaccompanied children don't benefit from a F&F discount of course.)

This thread is primarily about TfL. I'd imagine that from their perspective, they see the approach to child fares as a resolved issue, disconnected from the future of paper tickets.

 

[Deerfold]

You are right to an extent, but for people travelling alone, Oyster and Contactless make travel much easier, so it means that those passengers are more likely to use the train.

The disconnect is between TfL's approach to child fares and the approach of the National Rail operators. TfL have rendered use of the F&F railcard totally unnecessary in London by abolishing charges for children under 10 and offering very cheap fares for children between 11 and 15. National Rail seems unwilling to give up that revenue, despite the fact it is often as low as £1 where 'Kids for a Quid' offers exist. (Unaccompanied children don't benefit from a F&F discount of course.)

This thread is primarily about TfL. I'd imagine that from their perspective, they see the approach to child fares as a resolved issue, disconnected from the future of paper tickets.

With a Family and Friends Railcard, it's cheaper for an adult and a child to travel than just an adult to travel, so making the child travel free but not having a way of accepting F&F makes it more expensive to travel.

 

[JonathanH]

With a Family and Friends Railcard, it's cheaper for an adult and a child to travel than just an adult to travel, so making the child travel free but not having a way of accepting F&F makes it more expensive to travel.

I'm not sure that is TfL's problem.

 

[Blindtraveler]

They are going to have to make railcard support available with a contactless payment card and also for the short to medium term offer outboundry travel cards on a compatible smart card. I'm sorry but they will actually be alienating themselves if they don't do both. I don't want to sound like discontented of Medway but my MP is getting contacted about this as we need some answers and TFL seem to think that they are too big and important to even be vaguely accountable to those in the province's and the impact that some of their decisions have on them for stop already we face ticketing inconvenience when changing at somewhere like Denmark hill or abbey wood both of which I do frequently having moved a month ago

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not sure that is TfL's problem.

You said they'd rendered the use of the Railcard unnecessary.

It's definitely a problem for those who like the current discount.

It's up to TfL whether they provide a solution for that.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

for the short to medium term offer outboundry travel cards on a compatible smart card

This is already possible, perhaps not from the Southeastern app though, I got mine from SWR

railcard support available with a contactless payment card

Definitely required once the PAYG area expands, and I don't understand the delay other than a bit more £ for TfL until they do, mixed with a bit of "not invented here". Not knowing that a Railcard is required during a ticket check clearly isn't a worry for SWR's PAYG offering

 

[island]

This is already possible, perhaps not from the Southeastern app though, I got mine from SWR

I've just tried and the Southeastern app is happy to fulfil an outboundary 1 day Travelcard to my smartcard.

 

[jon81uk]

They are going to have to make railcard support available with a contactless payment card and also for the short to medium term offer outboundry travel cards on a compatible smart card. I'm sorry but they will actually be alienating themselves if they don't do both. I don't want to sound like discontented of Medway but my MP is getting contacted about this as we need some answers and TFL seem to think that they are too big and important to even be vaguely accountable to those in the province's and the impact that some of their decisions have on them for stop already we face ticketing inconvenience when changing at somewhere like Denmark hill or abbey wood both of which I do frequently having moved a month ago

You can already load peak and off-peak travelcards onto a TOC smart card, I have done it for Greater Anglia in the past. Unfortunately super-off-peak need to be paper still. But that doesn't matter in the context of this thread as it is Greater Anglia issuing that ticket not TfL and there is no plan for TOCs to stop issuing paper tickets.

TfL have stated they will implement some system of applying the travelcard discount to contactless, same you can currently with Oyster as part of the roll out of contactless to more stations in the next two years.

 

[Dave91131]

Not wanting to steer the thread off topic, but having kept an eye on this thread I've a question;

A paper travelcard provides unlimited travel within its zones of validity at present, conceivably one could go for several hours without passing through any ticket gates if simply having a ride around on various trains and routes.

If paper and / or outboundary Travelcards cease to exist, I understand one option (which already exists) is to "load a Travelcard on to an Oyster Card". In these instances, does the Oyster Card loaded with a Travelcard have to be touched in and out after each journey leg, or can one ride back and forth between station A and station B multiple times without needing to touch and out after every ride?

Thanks in advance for clarifications.

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER have outboundary day Travelcards from as far north as Doncaster.

 

[jon81uk]

Not wanting to steer the thread off topic, but having kept an eye on this thread I've a question;

A paper travelcard provides unlimited travel within its zones of validity at present, conceivably one could go for several hours without passing through any ticket gates if simply having a ride around on various trains and routes.

If paper and / or outboundary Travelcards cease to exist, I understand one option (which already exists) is to "load a Travelcard on to an Oyster Card". In these instances, does the Oyster Card loaded with a Travelcard have to be touched in and out after each journey leg, or can one ride back and forth between station A and station B multiple times without needing to touch and out after every ride?

Thanks in advance for clarifications.

Travelcards on Oyster don't need to be tapped in at all if you stay within the zones they are valid for.
When using the DLR and I had an annual travelcard I rarely tapped in when entering the station.

 

[island]

If paper and / or outboundary Travelcards cease to exist, I understand one option (which already exists) is to "load a Travelcard on to an Oyster Card". In these instances, does the Oyster Card loaded with a Travelcard have to be touched in and out after each journey leg, or can one ride back and forth between station A and station B multiple times without needing to touch and out after every ride?

Zonal 7-day and longer Travelcards, but not Day or outboundary Travelcards, can be loaded onto an Oyster card. There is no need to touch in and out as long as one travels within the designated zones. If touched-in (and within the journey time limit, and loaded with sufficient PAYG credit) an Oyster card with a Travelcard loaded may be used anywhere Oyster is accepted.

 

[Sm5]

I'm not sure that is TfL's problem.

it will be if families notice and start taking other transport modes, or do different activities.

You said they'd rendered the use of the Railcard unnecessary.

It's definitely a problem for those who like the current discount.

It's up to TfL whether they provide a solution for that.

Agreed.

Whilst family / group tickets offer bigger discounts, they are collectively putting more bums on seats and a higher total take.

Obviously if they dont want it, they Cannot blame the consumer for walking.

The risk is infectious.. it only takes 1 clever person to realise a taxi is cheaper as a group, than a train… he’s then educated 3 mates.. who educate there 3 mates who educate there 3 mates…..

dft / tfl need to include sales and marketing into that gloomy hall of bean counters, there are other ways.