TfGM Bus franchising

[Goldfish62]

However, presumably you can see that using a same or similar colour for trams and buses is pretty logical so yellow was almost certainly going to be the colour used for buses. It is very common for modes of transport within the same city to have the same livery. Certainly, more common than not. For example in Berlin you can see yellow buses, trams and underground trains (U-Bahn). Although TfL bizarrely decided to repaint its red trams green!

TfL uses different liveries for different modes. The roundel links them all.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So repainting both the buses and trams is as easy as just repainting the buses?

It is the corporate look of a more suitable livery shade than the one that looks like it had been chosen by an admission class in a primary school that would have been a more sensible decision to have taken. There are far less trams than buses in Greater Manchester.

 

[GusB]

Before we drift too far off-topic, if anyone wishes to discuss liveries used on other transport systems, feel free to do so in a separate thread.

 

[Soundwave]

The first repaint into Bee Network livery has been unveiled:

Manchester's First Bee Branded Bus Enters Service

Bee Network branded buses unveiled in Bolton as Greater Manchester marks six months until start of franchising.

www.busambassador.co.uk

Personally, I think they'd have struggled to find a duller shade of yellow.

I'm glad they think nobody in the wheelchair bay or upstairs wants to look out the window

 

[CAF397]

The first repaint into Bee Network livery has been unveiled:

Manchester's First Bee Branded Bus Enters Service

Bee Network branded buses unveiled in Bolton as Greater Manchester marks six months until start of franchising.

www.busambassador.co.uk

Personally, I think they'd have struggled to find a duller shade of yellow.

The yellow on the wing mirror looks better!

 

[Pit_buzzer]

I'm disappointed in that, the yellow seems very weak and the detailing is not good, the black rectangle with the diamond lettering looks really tacky.
I was expecting something quite simple and attractive having seen a rendering of an e400city in the new livery a few months ago but the reality seems much less impressive.
The E400 city pictures had a much stronger yellow and there was enough black glass and detail to make it quite attractive.
On the whole I like single colour liveries like London red, Cornwall red and the Arriva light blue. I think the multi colour angles and swoops are just over the top and must be difficult to maintain properly.

 

[javelin]

As I understand it, the black company sign and window stickers are temporary until the changeover in September.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

As I understand it the black company sign and window stickers are temporary until the changeover in September.

That's good news, a bit of care with the black detailing and it's heading in the right direction

 

[Andyh82]

I'm disappointed in that, the yellow seems very weak and the detailing is not good, the black rectangle with the diamond lettering looks really tacky.
I was expecting something quite simple and attractive having seen a rendering of an e400city in the new livery a few months ago but the reality seems much less impressive.
The E400 city pictures had a much stronger yellow and there was enough black glass and detail to make it quite attractive.
On the whole I like single colour liveries like London red, Cornwall red and the Arriva light blue. I think the multi colour angles and swoops are just over the top and must be difficult to maintain properly.

Are you sure the yellow E400City wasn't Liverpool's new livery?

 

[WWH44L]

I’ve read (although I wasn’t born) there was lots of negativity, perhaps more so when the old corporation colours of Greater Manchester were wiped out and replaced with orange and white back in 1969. History seems to be repeating itself. Over the years in Bolton I’ve seen the various shades of orange change, the split of GM buses with even more shades of orange and then the numerous colours of First, the diamonds of diamond and now back to a generic yellow. The same arguments continue….. The new branding may not be to everyone’s cup of tea but I’m sure I’ll see more changes before I pop off to pastures new. Embrace the change like the operators are and I’m sure over the years things will change yet again.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

Are you sure the yellow E400City wasn't Liverpool's new livery?

It was definitely a yellow E400 city with beeline fleet name. Try googling bee network e400

 

[GusB]

Are you sure the yellow E400City wasn't Liverpool's new livery?

It was definitely a yellow E400 city with beeline fleet name. Try googling bee network e400

There is an image of an Enviro 400 City on this page:

Say yellow to the Bee Network

The Bee Network is Greater Manchester's vision to deliver a joined-up London-style transport system, with buses beginning to be integrated from 2023.

tfgm.com

While the yellow appears to be a bit stronger, it's not real. There is a big of black at the rear which contrasts a bit.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

There is an image of an Enviro 400 City on this page:

Say yellow to the Bee Network

The Bee Network is Greater Manchester's vision to deliver a joined-up London-style transport system, with buses beginning to be integrated from 2023.

tfgm.com

While the yellow appears to be a bit stronger, it's not real. There is a big of black at the rear which contrasts a bit.

To me it's the difference between acceptable and disappointing, a real e400 city in a stronger yellow would be interesting to see

 

[Goldfish62]

I've only just noticed that the Service Permit consultation is up and running and closes on Tuesday:

Service permits consultation

tfgm.com

About the consultation​

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM), on behalf of the Mayor of Greater Manchester and the Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA), is changing the way buses are run in Greater Manchester. Instead of the current ‘deregulated’ system, where local services are provided commercially by bus operators who decide which routes and timetables to provide, between September 2023 and January 2025 most buses services in Greater Manchester will start to be run under a system called bus franchising. Under franchising, TfGM on behalf of the GMCA will commission bus services and coordinate the bus network in Greater Manchester.

A small number of existing bus services in Greater Manchester (mostly cross boundary services that run into and out of neighbouring local authority areas) will not form part of the franchised services. Once bus franchising goes live, any current or proposed local bus services that are not part of the franchised network (or are otherwise exempted) will require a Service Permit if they are to operate within Greater Manchester.

A franchising authority must grant a bus operator a Service Permit if they are satisfied that the operator’s proposed service meets the following statutory tests:

• the proposed service will benefit persons making journeys on local services in the area to which the franchising scheme relates; and
• the proposed service will not have an adverse effect on any local service that is provided under a local service (franchised) contract in the area to which the franchising scheme relates.

However, they must not grant a permit if these requirements are not met.

Franchising authorities are able to attach conditions to service permits, which operators must comply with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The first of those is a little concerning. Why should a route not exist to benefit only people outside GM going into GM? I can see us getting "pick up /set down only" services so as not to abstract, though.

Are these the same criteria London apply?

 

[johncrossley]

In the early days of London bus tendering, there were lots of cross-boundary services but they have mostly died out, or terminate just inside the boundary in places like Kingston or Uxbridge. A major reason being outside London operators not carrying Oyster readers so they carried very few passengers within the Greater London boundary, making them commercially unviable. Only long distance routes generally still exist, such as Green Line, and the TfGM consultation document references such cases, so routes like the X43 might have fewer restrictions than a stopping service like the 125 Preston to Bolton. I suspect routes like the latter will either end up being split near the boundary or they will get taken over by TfGM.

Government guidance explains that for example, the authority may apply a ‘lighter-touch’ set of conditions to services which have a limited number of stopping places in the franchising area but may require services which operate wholly within the franchising area to comply with more stringent conditions, to ensure they integrate effectively with the network of franchised services.

 

[Goldfish62]

The first of those is a little concerning. Why should a route not exist to benefit only people outside GM going into GM? I can see us getting "pick up /set down only" services so as not to abstract, though.

Are these the same criteria London apply?

No, the criteria are quite a bit different.

The London system is in many ways more straightforward, ie, yes you can operate in London as long as it's "not against the interests of the London public" , but you can't partake in the TfL fares system, although you can charge what you like.

Both the GM and London permitting systems are largely dictated by the Bus Services Act and the GLA Act respectively.

 

[Deerfold]

No, the criteria are quite a bit different.

The London system is in many ways more straightforward, ie, yes you can operate in London as long as it's "not against the interests of the London public" , but you can't partake in the TfL fares system, although you can charge what you like.

Both the GM and London permitting systems are largely dictated by the Bus Services Act and the GLA Act respectively.

Quite a few services were under the LLSA (London Local Service Agreements) system rather than LSPs in London and did participate in the the TfL fares system, including some which were entirely within Greater London. However none find it economic any longer as TfL fares have risen far more slowly than inflation.

 

[GusB]

While there are comparisons to be drawn between different franchised models, this thread is not for discussing how it works in London. Let's not get bogged down

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the early days of London bus tendering, there were lots of cross-boundary services but they have mostly died out, or terminate just inside the boundary in places like Kingston or Uxbridge. A major reason being outside London operators not carrying Oyster readers so they carried very few passengers within the Greater London boundary, making them commercially unviable. Only long distance routes generally still exist, such as Green Line, and the TfGM consultation document references such cases, so routes like the X43 might have fewer restrictions than a stopping service like the 125 Preston to Bolton. I suspect routes like the latter will either end up being split near the boundary or they will get taken over by TfGM.

The one that springs to mind is the long standing Arriva Southport to Wigan via Ormskirk and Skelmersdale service (375/385, I think) which has existed for years and is definitely of benefit, though I doubt TfGM would want to take on a route that spends as much time in Merseyside as it does in their area and the vast majority of its distance in Lancashire. But that service is very much needed and should not be lopped at Orrell - the Skem to Wigan market is significant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The one that springs to mind is the long standing Arriva Southport to Wigan via Ormskirk and Skelmersdale service (375/385, I think) which has existed for years and is definitely of benefit, though I doubt TfGM would want to take on a route that spends as much time in Merseyside as it does in their area and the vast majority of its distance in Lancashire. But that service is very much needed and should not be lopped at Orrell - the Skem to Wigan market is significant.

Another Arriva route from outside the Greater Manchester border is the 362 Chorley-Coppull-Wigan service which serves established and long-standing local area transport needs.

 

[johncrossley]

Another Arriva route from outside the Greater Manchester border is the 362 Chorley-Coppull-Wigan service which serves established and long-standing local area transport needs.

It was mentioned earlier that the 362 will been taken over by the Wigan franchise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2023 ==

https://www.keybuses.com/article/greater-manchester-franchising said in 2021, eleven cross-boundary routes are included in franchising, including Manchester to Warrington, Oldham to Huddersfield, Ashton to Glossop and Wigan to Chorley.

Eleven cross-boundary routes are now included in the franchising process, including commercial interurbans from Manchester to Warrington (Go North West 100), from Manchester/Oldham to Huddersfield (First 84/184), from Ashton to Glossop (Stagecoach 237) and from Wigan to Chorley (Arriva 362). Ticket machine limitations are likely to mean that the whole route is under contract, not just the section within the boundary. Identical, in fact, to TfL operations beyond London.

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite a few services were under the LLSA (London Local Service Agreements) system rather than LSPs in London and did participate in the the TfL fares system, including some which were entirely within Greater London. However none find it economic any longer as TfL fares have risen far more slowly than inflation.

I know, I used to have a lot of involvement with them. But back to TfGM...

 

[Statto]

Another Arriva route from outside the Greater Manchester border is the 362 Chorley-Coppull-Wigan service which serves established and long-standing local area transport needs.

362 is operated from Arriva's Bolton depot, buses interwork with the 575

34, 320, 352, 360, 395 operate from Arriva's St Helens depot into the GM area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

362 is operated from Arriva's Bolton depot, buses interwork with the 575

575 service .... Bolton - Horwich - Blackrod - Wigan

362 service .... Wigan - Coppull - Chorley

Bit of a "To boldly go, etc" convoluted conjoining.

 

[33109]

The livery let's face it is ruddy awful, washed out pale yellow

It should be a bright yellow with the bee logo on. Merseytravel have got a much better image. The yellow & grey is amazing for them.

 

[WatcherZero]

The photos were taken on a very wet overcast day, those who have seen it driving around since say its really bright and pops.

 

[Leyland Bus]

The photos were taken on a very wet overcast day, those who have seen it driving around since say its really bright and pops.

It does look much better in the flesh.

Either way, repaints will step up from the end of next month.

 

[158756]

Plans for a new electric bus depot in North Manchester

Plans for new 'state of the art' electric bus depot at 13-acre site

A £10m deal to buy a 'vacant site' from the council in north Manchester is expected to be done by the end of this month

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

A huge new electric bus depot is being planned for Greater Manchester, with a 'potential site' in north Manchester already earmarked for the 'state of the art' development.

Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) and Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) hope to buy a sprawling plot of land from Manchester city council in what's said to be a £10m deal, with its purchase set to be confirmed by the end of this month. The Government has so far pledged £7.5m for the project, which leaves a funding shortfall of £2.5m GMCA say is 'expected to be funded from borrowings as part of the overall bus reform programme'.

I assume this would replace Go Ahead's Queens Road depot, but maybe it will take buses from elsewhere as well, as towards the end of the article it states that TfGM are aiming to consolidate to fewer sites and redevelop existing depots.

 

[GusB]

Ticketer will be supplying Transport for Greater Manchester with its "next generation" solution:

Ticketer next-gen solution for TfGM bus franchises - routeone

Ticketer will roll out its next generation ticketing and real-time information solution on TfGM franchised bus services.

www.route-one.net

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has signed a contract with Ticketer that will see the supplier’s next generation ticketing and real-time information solution rolled out on franchised bus services in the city region, commencing in September.

It will connect to the Ticketer Smart Gateway for vehicle communications. That will deliver what is described as “an ecosystem of connectivity for on-bus IT infrastructure” and allow franchised operators to reduce the amount of on-bus hardware and SIM cards. In the case of electric vehicles, it will also permit enhanced monitoring of energy consumption.

Ticketer says that the next generation ticket machines have a more powerful processor, more memory and are tablet-based, running on Android. The Smart Gateway’s improved GPS enhances tracking and vehicle location capability, which TfGM adds will improve real-time information provided to customers via journey planners and displays at interchanges.

The supplier remarks that the upgraded real-time information system also enables “advanced disruption management, corridor management, on-bus inventory management and advanced tracking among many other features to improve operator efficiency.”

The ticket machines will be accompanied by standalone tap-off readers. Operators and TfGM will receive tap-off data, which through use of GPS location reports will give a high degree of understanding of customer origins and destinations.

Rollout of the Ticketer solution will begin with the first tranche of bus franchising in Greater Manchester, with TfGM adding that “rigorous testing” will be undertaken beforehand.