Greater Manchester bus stops have never been branded in line with the buses since October 1986. We're not talking about some Harrogate to York or Scarborough route where attention is drawn to a service people may not know exists.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
TfGM Bus franchising
- Thread starter Tim33160
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 13,161
And your point is?
johncrossley
Established Member
However they have been rebranded twice (at least) since then. GMPTE stops were red, the colour being changed from orange so not to appear biased towards GM Buses. Then black as part of the rebranding to TfGM.
You can brand networks as well as individual routes. Networks are more useful than individual routes.
WatcherZero
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,272
No reason to replaced a perfectly good condition sign with a new one costing £20-30 when a 50p vinyl sticker will do. If they had people would be accusing them of government waste.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 13,161
Exactly. The application of a couple of stickers to each flag costs peanuts.
Including staff costs?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If going there anyway to change the timetable posters it'd be near enough zero, certainly. Maybe a couple of man days in total for the whole network, because it'd be an extra minute or so per stop.
Fleetmaster
Member
They're clearly doing all the right things, just in all the wrong order.
Complete the tendering process first, then repaint the buses, then install ticketer, then redesign networks, then rebrand (and number!) bus stops.
Buses Magazine has a whole feature that laughs at stops which have never been upgraded from long extinct operators like Ribble, so even a small thing like this needs to be done properly (assuming you care a out not being laughed about in the trade media!).
Complete the tendering process first, then repaint the buses, then install ticketer, then redesign networks, then rebrand (and number!) bus stops.
Buses Magazine has a whole feature that laughs at stops which have never been upgraded from long extinct operators like Ribble, so even a small thing like this needs to be done properly (assuming you care a out not being laughed about in the trade media!).
Fleetmaster
Member
The Bee Network is entirely costed and accounted for, according to the Mayor.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think I'd agree with that. You don't want to be sticking your brand all over things until you have implemented the improvements. Virgin learnt that to their expense in the early days of West Coast when they became a synonym for "rubbish", and it took a long time to pull that back. They'd have been better just operating as West Coast until the Pendolinos arrived, and a similar thing may prove the case here.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 13,161
Yes. The staff costs are already accounted for. The work is done in-house by the bus stop maintenance team.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The problem with that scenario is that from Day One you'd have Go Northwest operating Diamond liveried buses and Diamond operating Bee Network liveried buses. The resultant total confusion for passengers would also extend to the fact that operator specific tickets will no longer be available. Therefore passengers boarding a Diamond-liveried, GoNorthWest-operated bus would be unable to buy operator-specific tickets for either.
Rebranding from Day One really is the only way in this instance.
Last edited:
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is that exactly what will be in store for the residents of Greater Manchester?
py_megapixel
Established Member
I'm not sure I want my bus network to be "imaginative". I want a frequent, efficient, reliable service; reasonable fares; good-quality, clean vehicles; clear service information; and proper integration with other modes so as to form a system which is comprehensive enough for most of my journeys.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Yes I'd certainly not have the bus arrival times rely on superstition
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Isn't life going to be almost heaven-like when the Burnham Oblast is in full swing. All buses, trams and trains running when they should, etc.
In this new transport heaven, there won't be any strikes to upset the applecart....or will there?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
They certainly won't be perfect lol
It'll be at least interesting to see what changes are done once the bus franchising is set in place
Another interesting thought: I'm heavily affected by Northern strikes, and it doesn't look like they'll be going any time soon.
Although any new problems related to changes would be interesting to see, I doubt TfGM will get much power over the trains (although they are interested in the stations), but the trams could one day see strikes.
Last edited by a moderator:
cnjb8
Established Member
It's a simple livery, something good when you have hundreds of buses to repaint
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Very much so. I do wonder how much longer it would take them if they tried to do something more detailed.
I wonder when they'll stop applying the stickers on the windows (They're still see-through from inside btw).
Fleetmaster
Member
If that was the concern, it would have been more sensible to buy plan white buses and get a specialist contractor to apply vinyls. It's a cheap but cost effective way of making striking vehicles that are unambiguously part of a bespoke and trademark protected branding. This is how Eddie Stobart did it. It also means it can be quickly removed and the buses resold, as part of a deliberate policy of faster than typical fleet replacement (because Bee Network buses are hopefully going to be intensively used but always the best kit available). The use of an odd colour applied in an unattractive way but which isn't so obviously connected to Bee Network that a second hand user would feel compelled (or even legally obliged) to remove it before using the bus on their substandard route/service which may or may not be near the Greater Manchester area, is not a great sign.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Whenever a new paint scheme is introduced, you can guarantee there will be complaints on this forum, even if there's absolutely nothing wrong with it!
GusB
Established Member
Especially if it happens to be yellow!
tbtc
Veteran Member
I think that Manchester’s situation resembles the joke about a motorist asking someone for directions and getting the response “well, I wouldn’t start from here…”
Genuine improvements are possible (service coordination, same operator providing the evening service, through tickets, giving passengers the confidence that routes won’t change every few weeks, integration with heavy and light rail etc) but it may take a year or two to change things significantly.., they have to start from somewhere… and the complication of franchises mean you can’t tender everywhere all at once
But once they’ve established that stability in the middle of this decade, it’ll be a lot smoother. It just takes time to get there
I dunno… I think that the “cheap and unimaginative” livery that London’s local authority use seems acceptable enough to passengers down there?
People on here complain about complicated/ fussy liveries.., people on here complain about plain/ simple liveries .., maybe there’s a common theme?
There seems a trend of people raising unnecessarily high expectations for the Bee Network, presumably so that they can then complain when things don’t live up to these standards that were never enshrined in legislation (e.g. see also comments about strikes or buses never being late)
Maybe they’ll have a lower average age than Manchester has had over the past decade, but even London (and places cited by enthusiasts as better than average like Edinburgh) doesn’t have brand new buses on every route..,
…but if Burnham insisted on only buses under three years old in Manchester then there’d be complaints about this making things unnecessarily expensive.., he can’t win
Genuine improvements are possible (service coordination, same operator providing the evening service, through tickets, giving passengers the confidence that routes won’t change every few weeks, integration with heavy and light rail etc) but it may take a year or two to change things significantly.., they have to start from somewhere… and the complication of franchises mean you can’t tender everywhere all at once
But once they’ve established that stability in the middle of this decade, it’ll be a lot smoother. It just takes time to get there
I dunno… I think that the “cheap and unimaginative” livery that London’s local authority use seems acceptable enough to passengers down there?
People on here complain about complicated/ fussy liveries.., people on here complain about plain/ simple liveries .., maybe there’s a common theme?
There seems a trend of people raising unnecessarily high expectations for the Bee Network, presumably so that they can then complain when things don’t live up to these standards that were never enshrined in legislation (e.g. see also comments about strikes or buses never being late)
Maybe they’ll have a lower average age than Manchester has had over the past decade, but even London (and places cited by enthusiasts as better than average like Edinburgh) doesn’t have brand new buses on every route..,
…but if Burnham insisted on only buses under three years old in Manchester then there’d be complaints about this making things unnecessarily expensive.., he can’t win
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
If TfGM had gone and got Stenning in the same people would have been moaning about that too.
Definitely.
The starting point of the Bee Netwotk has to be to continue what’s already there, but instead under the direction of TfGM and not the operators.
Whilst new buses are being procured, most of the buses will simply be what's currently running now. And those buses aren't all white now. No doubt the speed which a bus can be repainted in a single colour was discussed when making choices of livery. And, of course, a single colour (of red) works for London.
WibbleWobble
Member
The problem with the yellow livery is down to the insistence of calling it Bee Network. The bee is the symbol of Manchester - so Burnham has just made the whole thing Manchester-centric. From some people I have spoken with in the region, it hasn't completely gone down well - many people in the outer towns still associate themselves as being in Lancashire or Cheshire (or even Yorkshire in the case of Saddleworth!), they don't like being "lumped into" Manchester.
At least orange was a neutral colour, and the mention of "Greater" in the name softened things a little (although still irked some!).
At least orange was a neutral colour, and the mention of "Greater" in the name softened things a little (although still irked some!).
johncrossley
Established Member
Even in London some crazy people still think they live in Middlesex. On the whole, younger and even middle-aged people are more likely to go along with the reality that they are part of a major city. It is now quite acceptable to refer to the whole conurbation as "Manchester" just like it is normal to say "London" instead of "Greater London". That wouldn't have been the case when SELNEC was formed, hence the choice of neutral orange.
Rod Harrison
Member
- Joined
- 15 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 121
I want to live in cloud cuckoo land too! Last time local authority ran Manchester's buses they were right heaps in the main because there were so many demands on money elsewhere and no cost of living crisis with the government up to it's eyes in debt and unable to help.
johncrossley
Established Member
Back then buses were in public ownership so costs were inevitably high. Now they are using competitive tendering so not really comparable. It is like comparing London buses before and after privatisation.
London-based media who know no better, and the odd trendy young hipster who wants to be seen as living in a cool city may call the whole conurbation 'Manchester'. But even the Office of National Statistics don't consider Wigan to be part of Manchester, let along people who live here. Simple test: ask someone "how far is it to Manchester?" in Wigan or Bolton, or "how far is it to Liverpool?" in Runcorn, St Helens, or Newton-le-Willows. If you get an answer, rather than confusion, then you're not in the place in question. Ask someone in Lambeth, or Chiswick, or Stratford "how far is it to London?" and you'll probably get "where do you mean?"
We can compare, quite easily, because the service is budgeted and we know how much they'll spend. The answer is measured in tens or hundreds of millions of pounds more under Franchising than it did under pre-privatisation - let alone compared to the privatised system.
The real question is whether the extra money provides benefits that justify the expenditure. No doubt nobody will ever agree on that. One side of the political spectrum will point to declining ridership and fewer route miles; another lot will say it's brilliant, Burnham is the best and hate crime incidents on buses have gone down by 75%; the final lot will say Starmer has ruined it and it would work fine if only we fully renationalise the bus owning groups, increase pay for drivers by 70% and Free Palestine.
- Status