TfL to scrap paper tickets

[infobleep]

Changes are inevitable, and I think some of us will have to suffer the loss of some products.

As someone once out in a reply here to something I said in another thread. There will always be winners and losers.

How far are they on the project to add railcards to contactless cards?

 

[geoffk]

The issue is that it's quite likely TfL will bin the fares and not reduce the fee.

what does "same station exit fee" mean?

 

[Benjwri]

what does "same station exit fee" mean?

The fee you get charged for touching in and out at the same station, to quote the TfL PAYG Guide:

• Between 0 - 2 minutes: a maximum fare. If you re-enter the same or a different station within 45 minutes, you'll be refunded. This doesn't apply if you take a bus or tram before re-entering a station
• Between 2 - 30 minutes: minimum pay as you go fare from that station
• More than 30 minutes: we'll assume two separate journeys have been made and both will be incomplete. You'll be charged two maximum fares

 

[JonathanH]

How far are they on the project to add railcards to contactless cards?

It was apparently expected in phase 2 of Project Oval, at the end of 2024.

Is the TfL announcement clear on withdrawal of paper tickets at the start, or end, of 2024?

After they have stopped issuing their own tickets, and at least some gates on each gateline were fitted with barcode readers, they would be able to stop accepting National Rail magnetic tickets.

...or not bother with the barcode readers and just stop accepting National Rail tickets full stop. I wonder how value the settlement is between the National Rail operators and TfL to accept Cross London transfers. I can't believe it is worth £2.80 for each transfer, like it would be if the outboundary mixed mode premium got applied.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

...or not bother with the barcode readers and just stop accepting National Rail tickets full stop. I wonder how value the settlement is between the National Rail operators and TfL to accept Cross London transfers. I can't believe it is worth £2.80 for each transfer, like it would be if the outboundary mixed mode premium got applied.

As I've already demonstrated in this thread I have nothing like the depth of knowledge of some contributors here, but I can't see this really being an option. It would be challenging on areas where TfL and NR services overlap (Chiltern/Met, Euston DC/Bakerloo, GWR/Elizabeth Line?) but surely the big problem would be that it would be seen as actively against integration; travellers from Liverpool to Worthing (and from Worthing to Liverpool) would be whinging to their MPs who in turn would be complaining to the DfT and the Mayor of London.

It seems to me that whatever the economics, ceasing to take NR tickets would be an overly brave (in the Yes Minister sense) political decision.

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think it would be acceptable or desirable to abolish cross London transfers on through tickets.

As for Travelcards they cannot really be issued as an e-ticket because the barcode could be distributed to others and a Travelcard allows unlimited travel during its validity so you could have multiple copies of the same barcode being used across London at the same time.

I think the long term desire will be contactless and daily capping although I do hope it will be possible to load a one day Travelcard onto a smartcard.

 

[Starmill]

Agreed, ITSO would be fine, but total abolition was being suggested.

To be fair this is the likelihood. The intention is to allow TfL to keep more of the revenue from Pay as you Go than they're entitled to under the Travelcard Agreement. That cannot be done unless the product is retired. It also cannot be done realistically without people paying more, because TOCs aren't going to want to accept less, so I would expect that overall prices will go up much faster than inflation from today's outboundary Off Peak and Super Off Peak Travelcard prices.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2023 ==

I don’t think it would be acceptable or desirable to abolish cross London transfers on through tickets.

I agree. However I think it's the most likely outcome.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2023 ==

It seems to me that whatever the economics, ceasing to take NR tickets would be an overly brave (in the Yes Minister sense) political decision.

Politically, it's a much smaller issue than denying older person's Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster holders free travel before 0900, and they've done that. People living in Worthing or Liverpool cannot vote for the Mayor of London or Assembly.

 

[miklcct]

I agree. However I think it's the most likely outcome.

The ticketing system now is a mess anyway and I think that eventually all of the through National Rail - Underground tickets, cross-London tickets, and interavailability will be abolished (except where Underground / National Rail share the same tracks where it's impractical to do so)

Especially on the cross-London issue, there are a lot of Maltese Cross tickets issued to journeys where the London crossing is unlikely to be made on the Underground, just because there exists a variety of permitted routes from different London terminals for a cross-London journey, which means a lot of revenue is lost from the TOCs to TfL as well.

For example,
- from Kilburn High Road to Lancaster, the normal route is to get in and out of Euston, no Underground needed, but because there is also a permitted route out of St Pancras the ticket comes with a +.
- from Cricklewood to Brighton, the normal route is to use Thameslink to cross London, but because the ticket is any permitted and Cricklewood - St Pancras - Victoria - Brighton is also a permitted route, the ticket comes with a +.
- from Cricklewood to Kettering, with a ticket routed via London, the only permitted route is out and in St Pancras which means there is no sensible journey opportunities involving the Underground, but the ticket also comes with a meaningless +, leading to meaningless revenue lost to TfL.

 

[paul1609]

Surely it would be easy to expand the likes of keygo to tfl. I'm already being charged superoff peak travel card fares on wholly GTR journeys.

 

[davews]

Scrapping the out of boundary Travelcard would be a huge issue for me. Until they add railcards to contactless it is always cheaper to get a Travelcard if you intend to do more than one zone 1 tube journey. On my walks I often travel out to zone 6 for the same price. Current daily caps come nowhere near this benefit.
(edited as requested)

 

[JonathanH]

Surely it would be easy to expand the likes of keygo to tfl. I'm already being charged superoff peak travel card fares on wholly GTR journeys.

Having two levels of pricing (eg Contactless capping and the existing Travelcard pricing) doesn't really suit TfL's purpose though. Once those are aligned, what is the benefit to the operators of not just doing it all on Contactless?

I do wonder about how child fares are going to work without travelcard though. For TfL it is fairly simple to have free accompanied children and the Zip Oystercard, but that doesn't extend very well to journeys currently covered by outboundary travelcards.

 

[Class800]

The fee you get charged for touching in and out at the same station, to quote the TfL PAYG Guide:

Not sure the reality is the same.

I got a maximum fare for going through Kings Cross St Pancras tube the wrong way and having to pass 2 gatelines (I think something like going in the Circle line/old Thameslink entrance for the Victoria line). But in those days there were staff at ticket offices and they refunded this.

I got no charge at all for a same station exit at St Pancras low level when I went down and found the next London Bridge service was 30 minutes away (late evening) so came back up and went Northern line instead. Sure I was down there more than 2 minutes

 

[Meerkat]

How much bother would losing the cross London transfers really be now you can just use contactless?
If they dropped the fare accordingly (yeah, I know...) then at least I wouldn't be paying for something I don't use when I walk instead (I love walking across London between the terminals)

 

[Benjwri]

How much bother would losing the cross London transfers really be now you can just use contactless?
If they dropped the fare accordingly (yeah, I know...) then at least I wouldn't be paying for something I don't use when I walk instead (I love walking across London between the terminals)

Would create significant ticket challenges with most importantly the Elizabeth Line but also Thameslink. You’d have to exit somewhere to tap out and back in for through running through their cores.

 

[Hadders]

How much bother would losing the cross London transfers really be now you can just use contactless?
If they dropped the fare accordingly (yeah, I know...) then at least I wouldn't be paying for something I don't use when I walk instead (I love walking across London between the terminals)

A price increase of £5.60 per return journey. That would be unacceptable.

 

[paul1609]

Living on the kent coast I probably use the Underground for less than 5% of the journeys that I hold a "+" ticket for.
If Thameslink and Crossrail were still included in National Rail through tickets it would only really involve journeys via Marylebone.
Id guess that I split tickets in London (or the likes of Peterborough) on approaching 75% of through journeys now anyway.

 

[Meerkat]

Would create significant ticket challenges with most importantly the Elizabeth Line but also Thameslink. You’d have to exit somewhere to tap out and back in for through running through their cores.

True for the Lizzie - that would have to be included as NR. Thameslink is NR so I don't see why you would need to

A price increase of £5.60 per return journey. That would be unacceptable.

How much do TfL get for the transfer?

 

[JonathanH]

Crossrail were still included in National Rail through tickets

That is unlikely given the way journeys have been priced on Oyster / Contactless.

A price increase of £5.60 per return journey. That would be unacceptable.

So unacceptable that it is already done on Oyster / Contactless where it has been extended to outboundary locations.

Redhill to Potters Bar (with Maltese cross)
£14.50 (Weekend) super off peak day return
£21.80 off peak day return
£35.30 anytime day return
£40.20 off peak return

Oyster / Contactless (default fare)
£9.70 off-peak PAYG
£15.50 peak PAYG

Oyster / Contactless via the underground
£12.40 off-peak PAYG
£18.30 peak PAYG

So, the NR only fare is a bit cheaper, the mixed mode fare is a bit more expensive. Using the underground costs £5.60 more for a return journey at peak times.

How much do TfL get for the transfer?

A block payment as I understand it, rather than an amount per journey.

 

[island]

Scrapping the out of boundary railcard would be a huge issue for me. Until they add railcards to contactless it is always cheaper to get a railcard if you intend to do more than one zone 1 tube journey. On my walks I often travel out to zone 6 for the same price. Current daily caps come nowhere near this benefit.

Did you mean Travelcard rather than Railcard?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can't see cross London tickets losing the tube transfer but I can see through tickets to zonal destinations going. It's already cheaper to use contactless so why are we persisting with overcharging customers?

 

[Joe Paxton]

I can't see cross London tickets losing the tube transfer but I can see through tickets to zonal destinations going. It's already cheaper to use contactless so why are we persisting with overcharging customers?

Some thoughts...

Families traveling together (with children aged 11+ who don't have a Zip Oyster card or indeed their own contactless card).

Groups travelling together, where the organiser wishes to sort out the tickets upfront.

Travellers from abroad with contactless cards that either don't work for PAYG in London, or don't want to use their cards as they wish to avoid potentially high foreign transaction fees.

Those people who, shock horror, don't have contactless cards (they do exist).

 

[miklcct]

Would create significant ticket challenges with most importantly the Elizabeth Line but also Thameslink. You’d have to exit somewhere to tap out and back in for through running through their cores.

There is no problem here as they are National Rail services.

 

[davews]

Did you mean Travelcard rather than Railcard?

Sorry, I meant to say "Scrapping the out of boundary Travelcard would be a huge issue for me. Until they add railcards to contactless it is always cheaper to get a Travelcard if you intend to do more than one zone 1 tube journey"

 

[JonathanH]

There is no problem here as they are National Rail services.

There is a problem - TfL and the DfT don't want fares to drop so the Elizabeth Line core will most likely not be seen as a National Rail service for the purposes of the issues in this thread.

Thameslink is clearly a different matter.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Some thoughts...

There seem to be solutions to quite a few of these:

Families traveling together (with children aged 11+ who don't have a Zip Oyster card or indeed their own contactless card).

A standard Oyster card with a Young Visitor’s discount set should be fine.

Groups travelling together, where the organiser wishes to sort out the tickets upfront.

For anything more than one cash single, a Group Day Travelcard is cheaper. Whilst TfL do plan to reconsider Travelcards, accommodations will need to be made for groups.

Travellers from abroad with contactless cards that either don't work for PAYG in London, or don't want to use their cards as they wish to avoid potentially high foreign transaction fees.

Standard and Visitor Oyster cards already exist for this purpose.

Those people who, shock horror, don't have contactless cards (they do exist).

Standard Oyster cards already existed prior to contactless acceptance on TfL, and still do now.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There seem to be solutions to quite a few of these:
[...]

Indeed, but obtaining potentially multiple Oyster cards (whether regular or Visitor), and also availing of the Young Visitors discount, does come at a cost - both in terms of money and time, including that of researching and understanding the systems.

For those who just wish to make a through journey starting from an NR station to a destination on the Tube, jumping through the hoops above is I'd suggest a bit onerous - if given the choice, some travellers might be happy to pay a small premium for a thorough ticket.

(Worth bearing in mind that not everyone who travels to London by train then spend time travelling around London by public transport.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a Scout leader, I find TfL provides very poorly for children who aren't young enough to be free, Londoners or regulars. My usual recommendation for groups that aren't big enough for a Group Day Travelcard (10) is to get a Family Travelcard from just outside the Zones, e.g. Cuffley.

It would be good if the Group Day Travelcard was offered for any group including children, even families. It could be ordered online, issued on single use ITSO and posted out if needs be.

 

[Benjwri]

There is no problem here as they are National Rail services.

Yes but say someone were to alight at Farringdon for Kings Cross, or any other core station. It’s been established upthread barcodes are apparently too time consuming for central stations, so what do people do here?

 

[James H]

As a Scout leader in central London, there are problematic edge-cases for us too.

With the Elizabeth line now fully open we are likely to travel several times a year from Farringdon to Marlow.

This is a ticketing headache. Adults could use contactless but not Oyster. The Scout-age children have Zip cards which are good as far as West Drayton.

So paper tickets from London U1-6 to Marlow are needed. And there are no period returns so a weekend away is expensive.

 

[Ediswan]

As a Scout leader in central London, there are problematic edge-cases for us too.

With the Elizabeth line now fully open we are likely to travel several times a year from Farringdon to Marlow.

Visits to Longridge ?