National Railway Museum Changes

[DarloRich]

I asked if you were being satirical, serious or contrarian, and you responded with "could be all three, you decide". Those are not the words of someone expressing their legitimate opinion for the sake of discussion.

You still havent answered what you don't like about my view point. I accept that it is at odds with yours but I stand by my point. I would also point out that I cant control how you take my postings. If you think I am on a wind up then so be it. I cant change your view. It is an easy way out of engaging with a differing view to your own I suppose!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2023 ==

The NRM needs to appeal most of all to the youngsters of today. Those who look at the items or the wonderlab (whatever that will be) and think i really want to get involved with engineering and then have a lifelong enthusiast and interest in the industry.

At the moment the railway museum really just is a room with some trains in and there isnt really much of a story/route through, its just a random assortment of trains. York is a massive tourist destination for families and the museum needs to capitalise on that. It doesnt need to attract the enthusiast, they will most likely come even if they hate it.

It needs to be bright (natural light) and be interesting. This doesnt mean the national collection cant have other large exhibits, but who really cares about Class 40s, 2-BILs, Class 31s. These are not items that leave an impression.

The problem with most diesels/electrics are that they are essentially just boxes on wheels, whereas there is normally a lot more to see with a kettle.

I agree - however the lack of an authorised walking route isn't a problem as long as the exhibits "speak for themselves" and have the space to do so ( not cluttered or fenced off)

My point is that you claim 'the NRM doesn't need one of everything', and yet they clearly aim to assemble 'an unrivalled collection of engineering brilliance' which seems to suggest they already have or intend to amass a large collection of exhibits, ie considerably more than just Mallard / Flying Scotsman.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The National Gallery doesn't own every painting of a particular style or even every example of one painters work - they have a representative collection that they will add to when the opportunity arises and I bet they dispose of things no longer wanted or replaced by better examples.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I agree - however the lack of an authorised walking route isn't a problem as long as the exhibits "speak for themselves" and have the space to do so ( not cluttered or fenced off)

Didnt mean an authorised route, but more a hinted guided way that tells a story.

 

[InkyScrolls]

[W]ho really cares about Class 40s, 2-BILs, Class 31s. These are not items that leave an impression.

The problem with most diesels/electrics are that they are essentially just boxes on wheels, whereas there is normally a lot more to see with a kettle.

You're clearly not a diesel fan. I know plenty of people who are interested only in diesels, and have been since they were children, with no time for steam at all!

 

[DarloRich]

Didnt mean an authorised route, but more a hinted guided way that tells a story.

thanks - i used a poor term. I meant what you suggest above!

 

[Alanko]

You're clearly not a diesel fan. I know plenty of people who are interested only in diesels, and have been since they were children, with no time for steam at all!

I'm a diesel fan, but I like to see them doing something. Either passing at speed or working hard up an incline, not standing silently behind a barrier at a museum. What does seeing a static diesel bring to the table that a large model, film clip or photograph doesn't?

 

[yoyothehobo]

You're clearly not a diesel fan. I know plenty of people who are interested only in diesels, and have been since they were children, with no time for steam at all!

On the contrary, i love hearing the thrash of a diesel and seeing a 37/20/50 in the wild (which i have seen in the last few months without going out of my way) they are impressive.

But in a museum, a diesel could be any box on bogies with the prototype deltic being an exception due to its styling.

I have rarely seen the 40 in the railway museum get more than a passing interest by people on their way into the display of weird and wonderful glass boxes hall.

 

[eldomtom2]

You still havent answered what you don't like about my view point. I accept that it is at odds with yours but I stand by my point. I would also point out that I cant control how you take my postings. If you think I am on a wind up then so be it. I cant change your view. It is an easy way out of engaging with a differing view to your own I suppose!

I think you are trying to get a wind up out of people because you don't seem to have a consistent view. You attack someone for saying the 2-BIL is boxed in at Shildon but in your most recent post you say exhibits shouldn't be cluttered or fenced off.

 

[DarloRich]

You attack someone for saying the 2-BIL is boxed in at Shildon but in your most recent post you say exhibits shouldn't be cluttered or fenced off.

If you cant understand the difference between the 5 road shed at Shildon and the great hall at the NRM there is little point in trying to discuss this subject with you!

 

[eldomtom2]

If you cant understand the difference between the 5 road shed at Shildon and the great hall at the NRM there is little point in trying to discuss this subject with you!

Except of course you attacked them on the grounds that no one knows what a 2-BIL was, when that wasn't relevant to their post.

 

[jupiter]

Fill it full of steam engines and you could maybe rename it the national steam railway museum because no one is interested in diesel. Only what happened before, when was it July the 9th 1967, is remotely important. The next fifty years of development we can gloss over. Pah.

The story of the evolution of the railway is interesting and worth telling in my opinion. The transition from steam to diesel. The biggest disappointments of the NRM for me was the lack of information, lack of a coherent story and under representation of diesel traction.

Diesel galas at heritage railways? Nah, they'll never work. Oh yes they do, terrifically successful and bringing in a whole new set of visitors. Thank you very much.

 

[D6968]

On the contrary, i love hearing the thrash of a diesel and seeing a 37/20/50 in the wild (which i have seen in the last few months without going out of my way) they are impressive.

But in a museum, a diesel could be any box on bogies with the prototype deltic being an exception due to its styling.

I have rarely seen the 40 in the railway museum get more than a passing interest by people on their way into the display of weird and wonderful glass boxes hall.

I don’t think you’ve seen what groups like the DTG have done in the past showing the likes of say 8568 or 821 in showing the workings of those particular machines.
I’ve seen veteran railway staff and public with a look of genuine surprise when someone from 821’s footplate crew has lifted the cab floor up to show the workings beneath.

From the outside outside diesels can seem like boxes on wheels, but if you can demonstrate how they work, you can engage with the public.

 

[Sm5]

Fill it full of steam engines and you could maybe rename it the national steam railway museum because no one is interested in diesel. Only what happened before, when was it July the 9th 1967, is remotely important. The next fifty years of development we can gloss over. Pah.

The story of the evolution of the railway is interesting and worth telling in my opinion. The transition from steam to diesel. The biggest disappointments of the NRM for me was the lack of information, lack of a coherent story and under representation of diesel traction.

Diesel galas at heritage railways? Nah, they'll never work. Oh yes they do, terrifically successful and bringing in a whole new set of visitors. Thank you very much.

How does the argument stack up against Multiple Units ?

The NRM has more multiple units under its wing than anyone else I can think of?

 

[DarloRich]

Fill it full of steam engines and you could maybe rename it the national steam railway museum because no one is interested in diesel. Only what happened before, when was it July the 9th 1967, is remotely important. The next fifty years of development we can gloss over. Pah.

The story of the evolution of the railway is interesting and worth telling in my opinion. The transition from steam to diesel. The biggest disappointments of the NRM for me was the lack of information, lack of a coherent story and under representation of diesel traction.

Diesel galas at heritage railways? Nah, they'll never work. Oh yes they do, terrifically successful and bringing in a whole new set of visitors. Thank you very much.

I am afraid you expressing the enthusiast viewpoint. That is one I think would be terminal for the NRM. I know that is hard for people here to understand that challenge. My view is few people in the real world cares about the lack of diesel traction in the NRM.

Diesel galas are of no interest to the normal clientele of a steam railway. Honestly, they really aren't. They ARE of interest to enthusiasts and they are very good ( generally) at attracting that market including me. However, If I took my partner to a diesel gala she would not want to travel. Simple as that. End of day.

I know you care about diesels and I understand that but the people the NRM need to attract DONT. Obviously there needs to be some diesels to show the story that the NRM projects ( mainly LNER/EC express services) so a Deltic and an HST and ultimately a 91 will do that.

How does the argument stack up against Multiple Units ?

Once again very few people will care about units. An old and newer one will do. You want to be able to let people say " I travelled on something like that".

We have to get away from this idea of save one of everything. it just isn't practical or possible with the space and funds available. The funding part is going to get harder and harder in the years to come.

From the outside outside diesels can seem like boxes on wheels, but if you can demonstrate how they work, you can engage with the public.

I agree but it doesn't need one of every type to do that. A Deltic is as much a museum piece as FS and would be something out of the ordinary for most 21st century people, few of whom will have seen a machine or engine of that size.

 

[eldomtom2]

You cannot both say "the people the NRM need to attract don't care about diesels" and "a Deltic is as much a museum piece as FS and would be something out of the ordinary for most 21st century people". They fundamentally contradict each other.

 

[wilbers]

You cannot both say "the people the NRM need to attract don't care about diesels" and "a Deltic is as much a museum piece as FS and would be something out of the ordinary for most 21st century people". They fundamentally contradict each other.

Not entirely contradictory - could say few would make the trip there specifically to look at diesels, but if there are a couple there visitors will still look at them whilst there.

 

[eldomtom2]

Not entirely contradictory - could say few would make the trip there specifically to look at diesels, but if there are a couple there visitors will still look at them whilst there.

The contradictory part is the "as much a museum piece as FS" and "out of the ordinary for most people".

 

[Ashley Hill]

I am happy to see the diesels as they mean more to me than some GN Atlantic. I have happy memories of travelling on the mainline both on and behind D200,can’t say the same for any of the NRM steamers.
I also like the small items exhibit,totems,nameplates and signalling etc.
I was happily surprised to see a plastic MaxPax cup amongst the catering section. To the public that is probably over their heads but to a seasoned crank or 80s commuter it will be the first one they’ve seen for years.

 

[Alanko]

I don’t think you’ve seen what groups like the DTG have done in the past showing the likes of say 8568 or 821 in showing the workings of those particular machines.
I’ve seen veteran railway staff and public with a look of genuine surprise when someone from 821’s footplate crew has lifted the cab floor up to show the workings beneath.

From the outside outside diesels can seem like boxes on wheels, but if you can demonstrate how they work, you can engage with the public.

Maybe a good reason to have a cutaway 37? See what is in the noses, show a traction motor in situ, the generator, prime mover, miles of wiring etc? Even pointing out that the diesel engine itself isn't directly driving the wheels via gearboxes, etc, will baffle and amaze.

I saw a photo today of a 47 being scrapped at Carnforth, which was essentially a diesel loco minus the box, but retaining the cabs.

 

[43096]

Maybe a good reason to have a cutaway 37? See what is in the noses, show a traction motor in situ, the generator, prime mover, miles of wiring etc? Even pointing out that the diesel engine itself isn't directly driving the wheels via gearboxes, etc, will baffle and amaze.

I saw a photo today of a 47 being scrapped at Carnforth, which was essentially a diesel loco minus the box, but retaining the cabs.

A Class 20, 58 or 70 with the doors off would be easier to do?

 

[alexl92]

Once again very few people will care about units. An old and newer one will do. You want to be able to let people say " I travelled on something like that".

You say that, but my Dad who is not an enthusiast, from the south, and grew up in the 60s always stops to look at the SR EMU in the Great Hall because its almost exactly the same as what he travelled on. If it was for example a Class 101 he probably wouldn’t look twice. So there is some value in having a bit of variety. I do think though that the diesels need better explanation of why they’re there - the 31 is representative of the pilot scheme so it has its place but most people wouldn’t realise that.

As a steam fan, I’m disappointed that the Beattie Well Tank is just shoved in a corner out of view and I also think it isn’t really necessary to have both the David Shepherd’s South African loco and the Chinese one in the Great Hall - one is sufficient to tell the story of us exporting large locos across the world - but others may disagree.

 

[Alanko]

A Class 20, 58 or 70 with the doors off would be easier to do?

It would be visually less of a parallel with that cut away steam loco. A 58 could be used for a lesson on 'how not to design locomotives' though.

 

[DanNCL]

An idea that works elsewhere would be to display the collection in a way that allows visitors to see how the railways developed. So you’d have Rocket and other stuff of the same vintage at the start and pre-grouping steam, then you’d have stuff from the big four, then early BR, and finishing with late BR/early privatisation stock.

My cousin’s young kids (aged 3 and 5) when I took them to the NRM were more interested in the Shinkansen, 373, HST power car and the other diesels/electrics in there than they were in anything else. In fact, the only steamer they were interested in was on the miniature railway!
Diesels and electrics definitely have interest from visitors, and that will only increase as the years go by and the number of visitors old enough to remember mainline steam continues to decline.

 

[Dave W]

You say that, but my Dad who is not an enthusiast, from the south, and grew up in the 60s always stops to look at the SR EMU in the Great Hall because its almost exactly the same as what he travelled on.

@DarloRich has referred to providing examples to meet this phenomenon - people relating to exhibits from their own experiences of travelling - several times through his responses. Of course there's a hook to get people in for that, but as you say yourself, that's immensely subjective. My first memories of train travel were on 150s on the Snow Hills, when is the immaculate Centro-liveried example of one of them going to be in the Great Hall?

I went at the end of January, just missed the Station Hall. Herself indulged me in a spare hour when we first got to York, pretending to listen as I talked her through various bits of interest - although I did get a titter out of her about the 9F's flangeless wheels. As a casual - and free - visit it was perfectly fine and will always be so. Kids will get plenty out of a day, although in my view the NRM could do more to make the child-focused stuff a bit more linear and flowing, it felt a bit haphazard and not everything was working.

There's clearly a disconnect here between what the RUK hive mind thinks is a good museum, versus what large commercial museum management think is a good museum. I will do the weird, wonderful and small and I'll be fascinated by the minutiae - the following day we went to the ROC Cold War bunker for example, an absolutely brilliant hour and half - but surely even the most diehard of rail enthusiast would acknowledge that such an approach in a large "national" museum such as at York simply doesn't bring in the money required to keep it going. As mentioned right at the top of the thread, the squeeze on the cultural sector is going to get worse; commercial operations such as these are going to have to get a lot more out of a lot less resource.

The three blokes in a shed who open their workshop for people to get in amongst their projects don't have these issues. Final example: in July I stayed at a country hotel near Stratford. When I was fiddling about on Google Maps I came across the Vulcan at Wellesbourne. We turned up, parked up, marvelled at it for a bit, watched some blokes doing some work on it, and sodded off. Afterwards I went on their website and bunged them a tenner towards the maintenance cost. Would any of that have appealed to kids? Almost definitely not. Should it? This may be an example at the oppostie end of the spectrum, but the differences of running this sort of operation and the NRM are stark.

 

[yorkie]

The NRM needs to appeal most of all to the youngsters of today. Those who look at the items or the wonderlab (whatever that will be) and think i really want to get involved with engineering and then have a lifelong enthusiast and interest in the industry....

Indeed

I see the NRM just put out this video:

Wonderlab: The Bramall Gallery, is an interactive space for children to learn about the science behind the railways. Bring the STEM curriculum to life by exploring 18 fully interactive exhibits, encouraging children to think like engineers and inventors. Perfect for KS2 and 3, the gallery is designed around play and hands-on learning, inviting children to predict, design, build, test and improve - all with a railway theme. Wonderlab prompts children to look at the world differently, asking questions such as, ‘Why does that work?’ and ‘How can I make that work better?’ This video will help you prepare for your visit and show you things to look out for and discuss.

It certainly looks like these kids had a lot of fun, and it could well inspire them to become engineers.

The kids in this video are about 12, but it could appeal to quite a wide age range.

@Richard Scott if York isn't too far, you may want to bring your students to take a look!

 

[DarloRich]

Also noting that whilst not the NRM at York the new building at Shildon is finished and exhibits are going in. ( although the museum is closed until 22nd March to allow all the moves to take place)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4nkd9lg3qvo

Preparations are steaming ahead to display Europe's largest undercover collection of historic rail vehicles.

Specialist teams are shunting 46 rail vehicles into the Locomotion museum in Shildon, County Durham.

The complex operation will take four weeks and will result in a display that includes "something to complete every train set", including cranes, steam locomotives and snow ploughs.

The collection will be housed in the museum's recently built New Hall, which opens in May.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose the benefit of having units/carriages in the NRM is that punters can think:

"I travelled in something like that"

Or just as likely:

"That looks a darn site more comfortable than what I have to travel on".

I wonder how many punters appreciate so much the differences between various locos !

 

[Gaz67]

Museum , a building where items of historical significance are displayed. Who took it on themselves to totally change the ethos of the NRM?. Take your stem to another venue , it is important but does not need shoehorning into our important collections ( RAF Cosford another victim of this). Seeing comments on here about what belongs and what doesn't based on what you liked as kids , really? . This is about preserving our railway heritage , warts and all , and it's all being sacrificed to attract the tik tok generation, god help us.

 

[eldomtom2]

Museum , a building where items of historical significance are displayed.

Rightly or wrongly, I think many people involving in running museums - at least the big prestige ones with close links to the academic community - would disagree with that description.

 

[Iskra]

Museum , a building where items of historical significance are displayed. Who took it on themselves to totally change the ethos of the NRM?. Take your stem to another venue , it is important but does not need shoehorning into our important collections ( RAF Cosford another victim of this). Seeing comments on here about what belongs and what doesn't based on what you liked as kids , really? . This is about preserving our railway heritage , warts and all , and it's all being sacrificed to attract the tik tok generation, god help us.

I think broad appeal is key, including engagement for children but certainly not just for children.

I've already stated much earlier in this thread that I was incredibly disappointed by the exhibit text captions at Shildon, which seemed to be aimed at primary school children and nothing more. A museum is meant to be a centre of knowledge, and if Wikipedia is providing more detail than the supposedly specialist museum, then there is a problem. I could have learnt more about the items, more efficiently by staying at home and doing some googling and next they'll be complaining that footfall and revenue isn't what it used to be...

 

[gswindale]

Museum , a building where items of historical significance are displayed. Who took it on themselves to totally change the ethos of the NRM?. Take your stem to another venue , it is important but does not need shoehorning into our important collections ( RAF Cosford another victim of this). Seeing comments on here about what belongs and what doesn't based on what you liked as kids , really? . This is about preserving our railway heritage , warts and all , and it's all being sacrificed to attract the tik tok generation, god help us.

Don't think I'll bother visiting a museum full of rusty tin cans with just a board giving very dull technical info about it. Certainly not going to capture the imagination.

What is wrong with some interactivity showing how things work and creating a relationship between what you're looking at and real life?