National Railway Museum Changes

[eldomtom2]

And which if those areas are the railways not part of? The societal impact alone of the coming of the railways is incredible. What other lens should the railway be looked at though?

Well, there's the technology and engineering side, for one. And I never said "social history has no place in the NRM"...

what is a 2 BIL? what does that mean to little Jonny? What story does it tell us? The story is the key. That is what the museum is there to do - to tell a story using it's exhibits.

I think a lot of the general public would disagree that a museum's artefacts are only worthwhile as illustrations for the information boards.

Why is context such a problem? We seem to have real issue in this country with honesty and transparency when it comes to history. Not all of our history is good or clean and not all of railway history is good or clean.

Who decides what is "good and clean", however? To use a relevant example, if you start a company, is it immoral to accept money from someone who made their money from a business recently madee illegal?

Personally I would get rid of some of the things in the great hall and focus more on the stars that people have come to see. Those stars, btw, don't include many diesels or suburban units

Focusing on the stars is the opposite of telling a story using artefacts!

 

[yorksrob]

I am sure they will - but the point is that the NRM doesn't need one of everything. It also doesn't really need anything diesel wise beyond a Deltic and HST as they continue the FS/Mallard "storyline". Maybe chuck in a 37 as a ubiquitous do anything diesel that could take over from several steamers and we are away. Once they get a 91 everything will be finished collection wise anyway

You are correct that the context is crucially important but that context doesn't mean in relation to every other steam loco or how this one had inside motion and that one had wallcharts gears or whatever. It means in context to the prevailing time and how the object in front of you was an upgrade on the one over there and/or why it was crucially important to the development of the railways and/or the service offered by railways.

Agree to an extent, although there's also the regional aspect that NRM refelects. In truth, space in the Great Hall is limited, so there is only so much they can fit in there anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, there's the technology and engineering side, for one. And I never said "social history has no place in the NRM"...

They seem pretty good at that - their star exhibit draws massive crowds anywhere it goes! Using your same argument they are not the only two prisms through which to view railways. Why can it not be all of those things? Personally, to the average punter I think social history is going to be more of a draw as they can think about the impact such a change would have felt like but each to their own on that.

I think a lot of the general public would disagree that a museum's artefacts are only worthwhile as illustrations for the information boards.

That isn't my point - my point is that the exhibit has to have a story to tell. Trundling up and down the commuter lines of south London isn't quite the same as record breaking locomotive. There has to me more than that. Why is that particular item noteworthy. I have no idea what a 2-BIL is. it means nothing. Why was that unit preserved above all others? Why is it special?

Who decides what is "good and clean", however?

We do. Society does. The interpretation of history changes over time. What the Victorians thought of as clean is not what we think of as clean. Future generations will look on us in the same light. BTW - i am not suggesting a "woke" ( A stupid word but one that you have to use in this kind of debate) view just an honest view.

Focusing on the stars is the opposite of telling a story using artefacts!

You are interpreting artefacts to mean rusty bit of tat. That is not the definition I use. Mallard is an artefact.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

Agree to an extent, although there's also the regional aspect that NRM refelects. In truth, space in the Great Hall is limited, so there is only so much they can fit in there anyway.

Agreed - although personally i would bin all the GWR rubbish and keep only NER/LNER and BR stuff i like

( The basis of the NRM collection is, essentially, the NER/LNER railway museum IRC)

 

[bluegoblin7]

The same tired arguments about changes to the NRM are being raised time and again. Most people don't want to go and see a stuffy museum with one type of everything crammed in. I know people here find that hard to compute but it is reality.



is that the one where you cant take pictures? It always seems a very stuffy place when I read about it.


I don't think I have ever seen any work underway in that area. if looking at silent lathes is your thing you will be upset by this closure!


And which if those areas are the railways not part of? The societal impact alone of the coming of the railways is incredible. What other lens should the railway be looked at though?


So? it is a museum not an engineering workshop or a working railway. It is designed as place to teach people about the history of the railways and display artefacts in relation to that.


what is a 2 BIL? what does that mean to little Jonny? What story does it tell us? The story is the key. That is what the museum is there to do - to tell a story using it's exhibits.

I get that is very different to what enthusiasts want from a collection.

it is dark an dingy and needs much more light. Ideally natural light

Why is context such a problem? We seem to have real issue in this country with honesty and transparency when it comes to history. Not all of our history is good or clean and not all of railway history is good or clean.

There isn't going to be a "spectacle" issue at NRM. The great hall is full of locomotives that kids can run around and touch. That isn't going to change and that is heart of the museum. You can touch mallard or FS. These are the most famous locomotives in the world and you can touch them. You cant to that in many museums!

Personally I would get rid of some of the things in the great hall and focus more on the stars that people have come to see. Those stars, btw, don't include many diesels or suburban units

An excellent, well reasoned and measured post. The NRM is evolving, and as part of this change is inevitable. It is far better that active workshop facilities are located where they're needed the most: at heritage railways. That more don't make these accessible should be the cause for concern.

Indeed - I thought enthusiasts wanted more of the National Collection running/available to see outside of York? The evolution of the Museum has seen a lot of this - so which is it?

 

[eldomtom2]

They seem pretty good at that - their star exhibit draws massive crowds anywhere it goes! Using your same argument they are not the only two prisms through which to view railways. Why can it not be all of those things? Personally, to the average punter I think social history is going to be more of a draw as they can think about the impact such a change would have felt like but each to their own on that.

A) If the punters want to see the stars then social history isn't the primary draw, and B) this discussion started with talk about how the upcoming major renovation may see a shift in priorities and focus.

That isn't my point - my point is that the exhibit has to have a story to tell. Trundling up and down the commuter lines of south London isn't quite the same as record breaking locomotive. There has to me more than that. Why is that particular item noteworthy. I have no idea what a 2-BIL is. it means nothing. Why was that unit preserved above all others? Why is it special?

I would say that if you're talking about social history a local commuter unit is far more important than an express locomotive. It will have been relevant to the lives of far more people.

And furthermore, I don't see how any of this is relevant to the original comment that you were responding to, which was that the 2-BIL was difficult to view because it was jammed in between other trains - it wasn't trying to make a point about curation or museum design, since the context was asking where the locos currently in the NRM would go while the renovation was taking place and using the 2-BIL as an example of Shildon lacking enough space.

We do. Society does.

You will appreciate that "society" does not agree on everything, and that history is not just a collection of facts.

You are interpreting artefacts to mean rusty bit of tat. That is not the definition I use. Mallard is an artefact.

I'm not saying Mallard isn't an artefact - but as a top link express locomotive it is hardly the most representive of artefacts. I'd also like to know what stuff the NRM has on public display at the moment you consider "rusty bits of tat". And they have a lot of stuff that isn't on public display - does all that have to justify its presence in collection as well?

 

[Ediswan]

It is far better that active workshop facilities are located where they're needed the most: at heritage railways. That more don't make these accessible should be the cause for concern.

Providing meaningful public access to an active engineering worskhop is tricky from a health and safety perspective. The NRM had the advantage of a balcony. You could get a decent view without getting too close to things which might injure you, or under the feet of those doing the work.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Providing meaningful public access to an active engineering worskhop is tricky from a health and safety perspective. The NRM had the advantage of a balcony. You could get a decent view without getting too close to things which might injure you, or under the feet of those doing the work.

I can think of numerous active engineering workshops at heritage sites with balconies or other viewing areas, with far more active engineering than the NRM has had for years.

 

[12LDA28C]

I am sure they will - but the point is that the NRM doesn't need one of everything. It also doesn't really need anything diesel wise beyond a Deltic and HST as they continue the FS/Mallard "storyline". Maybe chuck in a 37 as a ubiquitous do anything diesel that could take over from several steamers and we are away. Once they get a 91 everything will be finished collection wise anyway

And yet, according to the Railway Museum's own website they will have (copied and pasted)

AN UNRIVALLED COLLECTION OF ENGINEERING BRILLIANCE​

Not to mention displaying, again I quote "the cutting-edge innovations shaping our world today—alongside the extraordinary birth and growth of the railways". So perhaps less focus on steam relics (yawn) and more on development and the future.

 

[DarloRich]

AN UNRIVALLED COLLECTION OF ENGINEERING BRILLIANCE

I am not sure the point you are making. The collection seems to meet that definition, even if a bit of dead wood is loaned out to other museums.

"the cutting-edge innovations shaping our world today—alongside the extraordinary birth and growth of the railways".

Lets be honest, the permanent collection wont include any innovations that are "cutting edge" today for a good 30 years!

steam relics (yawn)

they are the ones the real people want to see. They don't care about Westerns or D200. They might care about an HST.

 

[eldomtom2]

they are the ones the real people want to see. They don't care about Westerns or D200. They might care about an HST.

I have no clue if you're being satirical, serious, or just contrarian.

 

[Alanko]

I doubt the general public ever flocked to York to peer at a Western and a dead 40 behind a rope.

 

[DarloRich]

I have no clue if you're being satirical, serious, or just contrarian.

could be all three. You decide.

I maintain that the real people aren't going to the NRM to see a Western. They are going to see Mallard and Flying Scotsman!

I doubt the general public ever flocked to York to peer at a Western and a dead 40 behind a rope.

Is the correct answer.

 

[D6968]

I doubt the general public ever flocked to York to peer at a Western and a dead 40 behind a rope.

But how on earth can can 3 HST power cars be justified in the National Collection?
I would seriously like an answer to that.

 

[DarloRich]

But how on earth can can 3 HST power cars be justified in the National Collection?
I would seriously like an answer to that.

Do they have 3?

 

[D6968]

Do they have 3?

41001 (prototype), 43002, (first production) and 43102 (fastest diesel locomotive)
All have a credible reason for being there, but would you really need all 3?
Don’t forget 41001 was restored at other people’s expense back into working order.

 

[43096]

41001 (prototype), 43002, (first production) and 43102 (fastest diesel locomotive)
All have a credible reason for being there, but would you really need all 3?

43002 doesn't really have a credible reason for being there. It wasn't even in service on the day the 125mph service started.

43102 is joint fastest diesel locomotive. The other is also preserved and, unlike 43102, is operational.

 

[DarloRich]

41001 (prototype), 43002, (first production) and 43102 (fastest diesel locomotive)
All have a credible reason for being there, but would you really need all 3?
Don’t forget 41001 was restored at other people’s expense back into working order.

You are right - I forgot about 43102! No idea why they have 3. I am not complaining mind!

 

[eldomtom2]

could be all three. You decide.

Right, it's clear now. You're a troll. You are not presenting your legitimate opinions, you are trying to get a rise out of people.

 

[DarloRich]

Right, it's clear now. You're a troll. You are not presenting your legitimate opinions, you are trying to get a rise out of people.

What is it that you don't like in my stance? No one except an enthusiast is going to the NRM to look at D200 or a Western or a 2-BIL ( STILL don't know what it is or why it is important!) . They honestly have no interest.

I understand that is hard to accept from an enthusiasts stand point but I try to be realistic and look at it from the stance of the people the NRM need to attract to flourish. That is families. It isn't enthusiasts

 

[InkyScrolls]

What is it that you don't like in my stance? No one except an enthusiast is going to the NRM to look at D200 or a Western or a 2-BIL ( STILL don't know what it is or why it is important!) . They honestly have no interest.

I understand that is hard to accept from an enthusiasts stand point but I try to be realistic and look at it from the stance of the people the NRM need to attract to flourish. That is families. It isn't enthusiasts

You seem to forget that museums don't exist purely as a good way to kill time with the children while Grandma does her Christmas shopping. Museums are, first and foremost, a place to learn. You don't know what a 2-BIL is, or why it's considered to be worth preserving? Why not visit the museum and find out‽

 

[DarloRich]

You seem to forget that museums don't exist purely as a good way to kill time with the children while Grandma does her Christmas shopping. Museums are, first and foremost, a place to learn. You don't know what a 2-BIL is, or why it's considered to be worth preserving? Why not visit the museum and find out‽

I have visited the NRM more times than I can remember but I haven't been to Shildon for a while so I might pop in next time I go home.

BTW My pictures of the NRM are here if you want a look: https://flic.kr/s/aHsjsbPAxL

 

[wilbers]

I've never been to the museum in Shildon, I'll have to rectify that at some point in the next 7 months. Its in easy day trip range from here (albeit by car rather than train).

 

[InkyScrolls]

It's a fantastic museum - to my eye better curated than the NRM 'proper'. The staff are excellent.

 

[DarloRich]

It's a fantastic museum - to my eye better curated than the NRM 'proper'. The staff are excellent.

I agree it is a good museum but it set up to do something different to the main NRM surely? I think the point about curation is harsh but I understand the point. Could the Shildon location be more enthusiast centred?

 

[yorksrob]

What is it that you don't like in my stance? No one except an enthusiast is going to the NRM to look at D200 or a Western or a 2-BIL ( STILL don't know what it is or why it is important!) . They honestly have no interest.

I understand that is hard to accept from an enthusiasts stand point but I try to be realistic and look at it from the stance of the people the NRM need to attract to flourish. That is families. It isn't enthusiasts

I'm not going to go to the NRM to see the 2BIL - because it's not there.

I did travel to Locomotion to see it though !

3rd rail electric (particularly very old third rail electric) is something that will seem unusual to a lot of people around the country. Sometimes the interest of non-enthusiasts can be aroused by seeing something they weren't expecting.

 

[Alanko]

41001 (prototype), 43002, (first production) and 43102 (fastest diesel locomotive)
All have a credible reason for being there, but would you really need all 3?
Don’t forget 41001 was restored at other people’s expense back into working order.

The people who restored 41001 always knew the rug could be pulled out from under them, so I've only ever had limited sympathy there. I know that the prevailing groupthink is that the NRM were the villains in all of this.

Maybe a subject for another thread, but is it quite common for people or groups to sink money into preserving and restoring locos and rolling stock they don't technically own?

 

[eldomtom2]

What is it that you don't like in my stance?

I asked if you were being satirical, serious or contrarian, and you responded with "could be all three, you decide". Those are not the words of someone expressing their legitimate opinion for the sake of discussion.

 

[12LDA28C]

I am not sure the point you are making. The collection seems to meet that definition, even if a bit of dead wood is loaned out to other museums.

My point is that you claim 'the NRM doesn't need one of everything', and yet they clearly aim to assemble 'an unrivalled collection of engineering brilliance' which seems to suggest they already have or intend to amass a large collection of exhibits, ie considerably more than just Mallard / Flying Scotsman.

 

[robert thomas]

I have no clue if you're being satirical, serious, or just contrarian.

serious I hope

 

[yoyothehobo]

The NRM needs to appeal most of all to the youngsters of today. Those who look at the items or the wonderlab (whatever that will be) and think i really want to get involved with engineering and then have a lifelong enthusiast and interest in the industry.

At the moment the railway museum really just is a room with some trains in and there isnt really much of a story/route through, its just a random assortment of trains. York is a massive tourist destination for families and the museum needs to capitalise on that. It doesnt need to attract the enthusiast, they will most likely come even if they hate it.

It needs to be bright (natural light) and be interesting. This doesnt mean the national collection cant have other large exhibits, but who really cares about Class 40s, 2-BILs, Class 31s. These are not items that leave an impression.

The problem with most diesels/electrics are that they are essentially just boxes on wheels, whereas there is normally a lot more to see with a kettle.