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Back at the start of 1971 there were fairly regular Sunday diversions in the Wigan area because of major reconstruction at North Western station. One such involved a diverted train calling at Earlestown from about 1100 to 1122, then doing the Whelley lines to reach Preston. I arrived about 1105 to find it had gone. There was no regular service from Earlestown to Preston, so the station staff and crew must have decided there would be no takers for a train no normal passenger would be aware of.
The diversion was repeated on 14/02/71, and I turned up 30 minutes early. It waited for the booked time on this occasion.
I hate when things like this happen, especially at stations (unfortunately my local is one) where there can be extended dwell times due to timetable padding.
Eg train booked to arrive at 19 minutes past and depart at 24. (5 minute dwell time) may be more likely to leave early (even unintentionally) than a train that arrives 30-60 seconds before booked departure (which happens most times up here).
Basically means sometimes its a rush to get to the station before the departure time (rather than be there bang on time) just incase the train leaves early.
Also had an occasion were a driver (who IIRC arrived into my station one or two minutes earlier than booked) shut the doors ONE minute before departure time because he thought I wasn't getting on the train. I was walking up towards the front unit to get on!
Most people have touched on this already but yes it’s often one of (or a combination of) driver error, schedule discrepancy (driver diagrams mismatched with timetable), control instruction (wide range of possible reasons), or planned behaviour (see London Bridge and Waterloo East for trains towards Charing Cross / Cannon St).
If it does run early and it’s realised (or for known reason) it may then “wait time” at next stop if it’s a suitable location to do so.
Documentation? No, but I’ve personally seen it multiple times and believe is generally accepted behaviour.
It would make sense for other stations with a similar frequency to do the same in my view e.g. at Clapham Junction for Victoria or Stratford for Liverpool St (maybe not in a week or so) where the CIS is already on a “countdown timer” and not departure tome.
It's amazing what the railway gets away with. Its often touted on this forum that trains should leave on time. This is because of pathing etc and that leaving early is just as bad as leaving late. I'm surprised nobody has complained.
It's amazing what the railway gets away with. Its often touted on this forum that trains should leave on time. This is because of pathing etc and that leaving early is just as bad as leaving late. I'm surprised nobody has complained.
It's amazing what the railway gets away with. Its often touted on this forum that trains should leave on time. This is because of pathing etc and that leaving early is just as bad as leaving late. I'm surprised nobody has complained.
It's amazing what the railway gets away with. Its often touted on this forum that trains should leave on time. This is because of pathing etc and that leaving early is just as bad as leaving late. I'm surprised nobody has complained.
It’s a special case though, there will be another train to the same destinations a few minutes behind, and in the case of Waterloo East only a tiny number of people board trains going to Charing + - from Waterloo main line it will often be just as quick to walk across Hungerford Bridge. Plus it has obvious benefits for pathing/service recovery.
The last trains northbound through London Bridge and Waterloo East are indeed held to time.
I’d suggest this isn’t a true statement at all. The reason trains occasionally run early have been well explained above. It is not “regular” behaviour in any sense.
Most of us will espouse certain values for the railway, one of them is that trains should run 'on time' not early or late; on time. This is because of the wider impact across the network. That knock on effect is pretty real. There is also stuff that we don't see. Passengers need trains to be on time because of how they use them. That 3/4 minute window gets extended by the first train departing early. So your 3/4 becomes 5/6. At what point would that new gap become unacceptable ? What happens if the one behind is running late ?
The journey I have been making recently has a very tight connection. A minute here and there may not seem much but there are people who rely on a specific connection time. If you read through the dispute and fares section you also understand that journey planners also rely on those specific connections and a minute here and there will break an itinerary and can trigger delay repay and compensation.
London Bridge to Cannon is also kinda pointless leaving early. All that tends to happen is you swing right and then come to a grinding halt. You invariably end up waiting for your platform as it still has a train in it. The one in the platform may also get delayed because the Signaller is letting the early one in so it blocks your departure.
Operationally, leaving early is a risk. Running early also tends to give you restrictive aspects as your in the back of something or waiting for your booked path at a junction. It also creates those Swiss cheese holes with staff behaviour. Checking the time of departure is part of the dispatch process.
I know Waterloo East has an instruction to dispatch early, so I was wondering if London Bridge had the same.
It's amazing what the railway gets away with. Its often touted on this forum that trains should leave on time. This is because of pathing etc and that leaving early is just as bad as leaving late. I'm surprised nobody has complained.
Somewhere like Waterloo East or London Bridge doesn't have that issue though. If there's a pathing issue it just crawls up to the last signal at Charing Cross and waits for a platform. Indeed, whilst the railway aspires to have trains depart right time, where you have such a frequency and the timetable isn't "known" (countdown timers) the issue is somewhat reduced. Of course where you have a train every 30 minutes or there is a time listed, it should not depart early. There are a very few exceptions to this rule, of which this is one. As I said, I don't know if there is an instruction/documentation - there might be.
Staff can't even check the time at London Bridge, as it isn't displayed on Platforms 8/9 (countdown timers).
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Most of us will espouse certain values for the railway, one of them is that trains should run 'on time' not early or late; on time. This is because of the wider impact across the network. That knock on effect is pretty real. There is also stuff that we don't see. Passengers need trains to be on time because of how they use them. That 3/4 minute window gets extended by the first train departing early. So your 3/4 becomes 5/6. At what point would that new gap become unacceptable ? What happens if the one behind is running late ?
Policy at both TOCs I’ve worked at is close doors 30 seconds before departure which, taking into account the dispatch process, means the wheels start turning +\- a few seconds of the booked departure.
If the whistle is blown to the conductor at 30 seconds before the scheduled time, the train usually leaves on time.
Sometimes the whistle is blown 35-40 seconds before the scheduled time and you get an early departure.
And normally it is not the train drivers controlling the departure, it is the guard/train manager who closes the doors, who then sends a signal to the driver once the last door is closed. Once the driver has received the OK from the guard then the train departs - which, depending on when the platform staff blow the whistle to the train manager/guard, can result in an early departure. This is why I'd recommend getting to the station with plenty of time, so that (even if you do have your ticket already and don't need to buy one) you're not caught out by a potential early departure.
Take a look at this Realtime Trains log from today; you'll see that the train driver must have been in a hurry, because they left pretty much everywhere earlier than scheduled - incluing St Pancras. (Though ironically, it pulled into Nottingham late!) And for the record - it is frequent that the train in question sits in Wellingborough station for 4 minutes or more as it arrives well ahead of its scheduled arrival/departure time:
Real-time train running information for 1D11 0705 departure from St Pancras International to Nottingham on 23/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Top tip: Trains can - and will - depart stations earlier than scheduled, even though they shouldn't. Best thing to do is always arrive 5+ minutes before the stated departure time so that you're not caught out!
If the whistle is blown to the conductor at 30 seconds before the scheduled time, the train usually leaves on time.
Sometimes the whistle is blown 35-40 seconds before the scheduled time and you get an early departure.
Whistles have nothing to do with the train dispatch process. If you blew a whistle at me while I was being dispatched I’d assume I was being asked to go “over the top” (1916 style), out of the cab, and all the way back to the messroom!
it is the guard/train manager who closes the doors, who then sends a signal to the driver once the last door is closed. Once the driver has received the OK from the guard then the train departs
If that precise sequence of events occurred at my London terminal (and it has done), it would result in the train being terminated, and driver and guard both being medscreened.
And normally it is not the train drivers controlling the departure, it is the guard/train manager who closes the doors, who then sends a signal to the driver once the last door is closed. Once the driver has received the OK from the guard then the train departs - which, depending on when the platform staff blow the whistle to the train manager/guard, can result in an early departure. This is why I'd recommend getting to the station with plenty of time, so that (even if you do have your ticket already and don't need to buy one) you're not caught out by a potential early departure.
There's about 6/7 different dispatch methods out there - driver only / driver with guard / guard primarily / driver-station / guard-station / driver or guard-station with CD/RA equipment.
It does happen, I left a station about five minutes early once to the fire alarm sounding, choice was get everyone off or leave early... I choice the easy option of leaving early! All done with authorisation before anyone starts moaning. We got to then next stop a few minutes away and waiting until our booked departure time.
It does happen, I left a station about five minutes early once to the fire alarm sounding, choice was get everyone off or leave early... I choice the easy option of leaving early! All done with authorisation before anyone starts moaning. We got to then next stop a few minutes away and waiting until our booked departure time.
Makes perfect sense in those (relatively rare) circumstances to let it go early to avoid delaying far more passengers. Unless it was the last train most people would likely wait for the next one (half hourly) and then claim delay repay. Obviously denying it has run early is a bit off.
I’d be absolutely staggered if that’s the case, other than for cancelled last trains.
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You must be incredibly unlucky. In my two decades of commuting through Lewisham, and several years driving trains through the station, I’ve known of this happening half a dozen times at most and only ever during severe disruption.
At my station, we’re given dispensation to provide customer service well in excess of what’s in the Passenger Charter and Conditions of Travel. We are supported in this. It’s a nice environment to work in.
I will call taxis for inconvenienced passengers without delay or quibble - it makes no odds to me, it’s not money that’s coming out of my pocket and it’s an opportunity to help mitigate disruption. If it’s quicker for the passenger then a taxi will be called, especially if they need to get to an airport.
As for Lewisham, I fully understand the reasoning behind why it was done but they won’t help people who are delayed by that decision - it’s a case of tough luck, wait for the next one whenever that may be (the next one was cancelled and it’s a 2tph service). I commuted from Lewisham to Waterloo East on weekdays at 9am for 5 years and saw all sorts of unusual things happen. Being looped at New Cross for another stopper, being “diverted” via the Thameslink platforms through London Bridge which I wished happened every day as that route was green signals all the way from St Johns, stopping between St Johns and New Cross to pick up track workers. Diverted Sidcup Line trains making unscheduled calls on Platform 3. The blessing of Thameslink trains on the odd weekend which would thunder past the queue of trains bound for Charing Cross, as did the Cannon Street trains. And a couple of times, Networkers rolling backwards whilst dwelling in the platform with the doors open. These things all become noticeable when you have a daily routine. It was a pretty good route to commute on.
It’s not a case of being unlucky, trains booked on Platform 1 sometimes appeared on Platform 3 and vice versa, probably experienced this a dozen times in that 5 year period. Sometimes the PIS didn’t reflect this but as soon as I could see there’s disruption I got the live map up on my phone and worked out what was going on myself. On a different occasion I tweeted Southeastern to ask if they’d be letting anyone know the Victoria train had been diverted via Sidcup and would appear on Platform 1 and the PIS was updated fairly sharpish, so I presume this isn’t an automatic process.
It’s not a case of being unlucky, trains booked on Platform 1 sometimes appeared on Platform 3 and vice versa, probably experienced this a dozen times in that 5 year period. Sometimes the PIS didn’t reflect this but as soon as I could see there’s disruption I got the live map up on my phone and worked out what was going on myself. On a different occasion I tweeted Southeastern to ask if they’d be letting anyone know the Victoria train had been diverted via Sidcup and would appear on Platform 1 and the PIS was updated fairly sharpish, so I presume this isn’t an automatic process.
For booked services being switched from Platform 3 to 1 means something pretty bad has happened. The service would have been diverted as far back as Dartford
For booked services being switched from Platform 3 to 1 means something pretty bad has happened. The service would have been diverted as far back as Dartford
Yes indeed - the odd landslip or broken down train or police incident. It gives about 30 minutes for the PIS at Lewisham to be updated, but whether it (and the predicted time of arrival!) is before the train enters the station block isn't a certainty.
At my station, we’re given dispensation to provide customer service well in excess of what’s in the Passenger Charter and Conditions of Travel. We are supported in this. It’s a nice environment to work in.
I will call taxis for inconvenienced passengers without delay or quibble - it makes no odds to me, it’s not money that’s coming out of my pocket and it’s an opportunity to help mitigate disruption. If it’s quicker for the passenger then a taxi will be called, especially if they need to get to an airport.
Good for you. Presumably you don’t work for southeastern! The reason staff tend not to call taxis for passengers at the drop of a hat is because they generally aren’t allowed to without jumping through all sorts of hoops. Exactly as you say, it isn’t their money….
As for Lewisham, I fully understand the reasoning behind why it was done but they won’t help people who are delayed by that decision - it’s a case of tough luck, wait for the next one whenever that may be (the next one was cancelled and it’s a 2tph service).
If the next train was also cancelled (you didn’t mention that before) presumably they were given authorisation to do so on this occasion because they would have led to a two hour gap. It’s pretty rare that a TOC is going to call a taxi for a cancelled half hourly service.
In most scenarios at Lewisham you’re going to be quicker waiting for the next train. The station has a service frequency that would be the envy of most parts of the network outside London!
Funnily enough I was delayed myself by a southeastern train having departed early the other day, and I had to sit at a freezing London Bridge for 40 minutes until the last train at 0100. The train I was aiming for and been removed from the boards, but I could tell from RTT it had left something like 20 mins early (this was on a night when the last trains were diverted in/out of Cannon Street, so I assume that had something to do with it). I suppose I could have started berating the station staff and demanding a taxi like many on here would have done, but I just sucked it up on the basis that sometimes these things happen, and it’s a rare occurrence.
It’s not a case of being unlucky, trains booked on Platform 1 sometimes appeared on Platform 3 and vice versa, probably experienced this a dozen times in that 5 year period. Sometimes the PIS didn’t reflect this but as soon as I could see there’s disruption I got the live map up on my phone and worked out what was going on myself.
It’s very much a case of being unlucky. Trains on that route don’t randomly appear at different platforms because doing so requires them to have been diverted. It rarely happens, and only ever during severe disruption, so it just seems a curious scenario to focus on.
I find that can still result in an early departure for a straightforward dispatch. 23 seconds seems to work. 10 bells or RA indicator dispatch (as per Man Picc) do take longer.
Train describer failures can cause similar problems too. They show the train at the last station that the describer worked at and then nothing subsequently. Consequently it shows as late even if it is actually on time or early.
Interestingly I know of a signaller that was within a large affected area by the TD failure and decided to manually input the train times at stations so that passengers would at least know where the train had been... That signaller got threatened with disciplinary action for doing that because it apparently affects NRs delay attribution regs. ... Don't let them tell you they care about passengers!
Interestingly I know of a signaller that was within a large affected area by the TD failure and decided to manually input the train times at stations so that passengers would at least know where the train had been..
The problem with manually inputting Trust times when auto-reporting has failed (I'm assuming that is what is being referred to here?) is that it would be all too easy to mistakenly input incorrect times. Manual interference with Trust reports, whether well-intentioned or not, is fraught with danger.
Regarding trains departing early, I can only say that as a rail passenger since 1971, and as rail staff in an operational role from 1984 to 2016, such instances were incredibly rare.
Train describer failures can cause similar problems too. They show the train at the last station that the describer worked at and then nothing subsequently. Consequently it shows as late even if it is actually on time or early.
I remember the GPS recording a stopping time on a train's return journey as being the time it stopped at that station on the outbound. The CIS duly calculated the expected arrival time at the terminus, and hence what time the return journey would run. One driver from another TOC saw the delay (must've been at least 20m) on a CIS screen and nearly missed the train because he went into the shop opposite the station. Once made aware I phoned up Control and asked them to correct the CIS.
After a mad rush I managed to get to the northbound Northern City platform at Highbury and Islington with 2 minutes to spare yesterday for the 14:18, which was just as well as the train left nearly a minute early!
It's not as if it's an intensive service either, with the current 30 minute service on both "branches" north of Alexandra Palace. And once it got to Finsbury Park, it then sat there for a couple of minutes anyway, presumably because it was early.
Documentation? No, but I’ve personally seen it multiple times and believe is generally accepted behaviour.
It would make sense for other stations with a similar frequency to do the same in my view e.g. at Clapham Junction for Victoria or Stratford for Liverpool St (maybe not in a week or so) where the CIS is already on a “countdown timer” and not departure tome.
Mechanical absolute block boxes often have signallers manually enter trains into TRUST as theres no automatic reporting in their area. They pretty much never end up majorly messing up anything to the best of my knowledge. I wonder why it would be any different in TCB areas with automatic reporting?
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