I thought trains never departed early?

[FuzzyDuck]

So I was waiting at Basingstoke platform 3 yesterday for the 17:35 to London Waterloo, a train arrived at 17:25 which I first assumed must be a different train but the departure board was saying the 17:35 was due next. Sure enough it was my train and this made be wonder how it made up so much time after departing Eastleigh.

Checking RTT for 1W66 it showed that it left Eastleigh spot on time at 16:58. However it appeared to arrive at Winchester 9 minutes early and then depart 8 minutes early. I didn't think this would be allowed?

The fact it was 10 minutes early into Basingstoke suggests the RTT data is correct, and it did sit at platform 3 for 10 minutes and depart Basingstoke on time. Confused.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y67310/2022-10-29/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[skyhigh]

It was likely human error. It happens from time to time.

Alternatively, the docket could have been incorrect, the driver's watch could have been wrong or there might be a local instruction that trains depart as soon as they're ready (this is unlikely to apply, but I don't know the area personally).

 

[gazzaa2]

I've frequently seen trains leave within 1-2 minutes early. On my morning commute I frequently had to leave home 5 minutes earlier to account for the fact the 08:27 (as an example) would often leave by 08:25. Of course the amount of times it was late as well would mean it was a novelty if it actually left at the right time.

Not more than a couple of minutes though.

 

[dk1]

Yes these things do happen occasionally. Not intentional.

 

[zwk500]

So I was waiting at Basingstoke platform 3 yesterday for the 17:35 to London Waterloo, a train arrived at 17:25 which I first assumed must be a different train but the departure board was saying the 17:35 was due next. Sure enough it was my train and this made be wonder how it made up so much time after departing Eastleigh.

Checking RTT for 1W66 it showed that it left Eastleigh spot on time at 16:58. However it appeared to arrive at Winchester 9 minutes early and then depart 8 minutes early. I didn't think this would be allowed?

The fact it was 10 minutes early into Basingstoke suggests the RTT data is correct, and it did sit at platform 3 for 10 minutes and depart Basingstoke on time. Confused.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y67310/2022-10-29/detailed#allox_id=0

As others have said, human error does happen from time to time, or the Driver was given an amended schedule different to the one published to the system (again, not unknown). Another reason trains may depart early is if Control ask them to in order to clear congestion behind them, although as the next service was more than 30 minutes later and there doesn't appear to have been any other northbound trains between them I doubt this would be the reason in this case.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I think there is dispensation to depart early from certain platforms at places such as the Charing Cross-bound platforms at London bridge or the Victoria-bound platforms at Clapham Junction at times when the service is very frequent and holding an early-running train could result in disruption to other services.

 

[jfollows]

I think there is dispensation to depart early from certain platforms at places such as the Charing Cross-bound platforms at London bridge or the Victoria-bound platforms at Clapham Junction at times when the service is very frequent and holding an early-running train could result in disruption to other services.

Yes, although it's not in the Sectional Appendix or anywhere else where I've seen it written, long-distance trains for Manchester will leave Stockport early (on the rare occasions that they run early) even though they're no longer "set down only" calls as they used to be. Technically it's wrong, but practically it makes sense. Reality is that it rarely happens because they tend to "wait time" at Wilmslow or Macclesfield in most cases.

EDIT In particular, the "Project Rio" services which had previously called at Leicester from Saint Pancras often ran early into Stockport, but didn't wait for their booked departure times. In a way it was naughty because the operator at the time got a cut of the Stockport-Manchester fare revenue which wasn't really deserved by advertising a service but then leaving early.

 

[Birmingham]

Yes, although it's not in the Sectional Appendix or anywhere else where I've seen it written, long-distance trains for Manchester will leave Stockport early (on the rare occasions that they run early) even though they're no longer "set down only" calls as they used to be. Technically it's wrong, but practically it makes sense. Reality is that it rarely happens because they tend to "wait time" at Wilmslow or Macclesfield in most cases.

How does this work for passengers with advance tickets from Stockport via Manchester (say connecting to TPE to Scotland), as might they have a reservation on a specific service from Stockport to Manchester?

 

[jfollows]

How does this work for passengers with advance tickets from Stockport via Manchester (say connecting to TPE to Scotland), as might they have a reservation on a specific service from Stockport to Manchester?

It doesn't, does it?
Well, firstly with today's timetable it doesn't often happen that the trains run early; as I said they tend to get held if necessary at earlier stops (In the past there were Euston-Manchester trains, first call Wilmslow "set down only", second call Stockport "set down only" so they could leave early "legitimately").
But in reality it'd mean that the passengers would take the next service and it's unlikely that anybody would care.
However it shows up the flaws in the system - rail companies advertise calls to get a "raid" on the revenue, then don't deliver the service by leaving early (albeit that this rarely happens), and then the passenger is caused inconvenience and worry.
It's the problem with all the "rules" brought in around advance tickets and the way in which "offenders" can be treated, as opposed to a "as long as it's reasonable" stance which used to apply (albeit many years ago).

EDIT Basically trains never depart early except when it's "inconvenient" for them not to. Plus human error, of course, that's more understandable.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Surely the driver knows the time he is supposed to depart, and has a display showing the exact time.

If he departs early, I must wonder if he is doing other things wrong, that one might be unaware of.

 

[Scott1]

There can be any number of reasons for early departures.

Wrong time in your job card, inaccurate clock, human error, service regulation, over crowding, emergency (e.g. fire alarm), control request and so on. Its unusual, with the exception of high frequency Metro lines, but not unheard of. I recall one early dispatch myself because they needed the platform to bring a service in to meet an ambulance. There's usually a reason, but it may not be very obvious sometimes.

 

[jfollows]

In the end it can be about conflicting requirements, and common sense can mean breaking the rules.

In the case of the Project Rio services, I used them in the down direction once, and we left Stockport 10 or more minutes early (I can't precisely remember, but it was a lot). So in today's railway (shades of Westbourne Park) would we be held at Edgeley Junction for ten minutes plus instead, to ensure that we followed our proper path? And then everyone on board would have been delayed by ten minutes? There's not a simple answer of course!

 

[skyhigh]

Surely the driver knows the time he is supposed to depart

Maybe. Their docket with the departure times may be wrong. They may misread it, or not look at it.

and has a display showing the exact time.

Maybe. All the trains I've ever driven don't have a clock for that purpose. You're meant to use your watch, which may be wrong.

If he departs early, I must wonder if he is doing other things wrong, that one might be unaware of.

In your vivid imagination, maybe. But back in the real world it's possible for a driver to do everything by the book but misread their docket at a stop where you don't normally have standing time, and leave early. Humans make mistakes. That doesn't mean they're doing other things wrong!

 

[dk1]

Surely the driver knows the time he is supposed to depart, and has a display showing the exact time.

If he departs early, I must wonder if he is doing other things wrong, that one might be unaware of.

Not really. It’s just a blonde (can you say that these days?) moment. Like when people say “how can a driver fail to call at a booked station” & any train driver will roll their eyes & dismiss such a comment.

 

[sw1ller]

I e had to give 3-3-1 a few times to the guard (open doors buzzer code). Then the other day we both missed the timings and left 2 minutes early at a request stop and control were a bit unhappy. It happens. Rarely done on purpose.

 

[30907]

Surely the driver knows the time he is supposed to depart, and has a display showing the exact time.

In UK practice it is (still, AFAIK) the Guard's responsibility to ensure correct departure. Not that that excuses the driver.

In this case, the xx58 departure from Eastleigh had 7min pathing time before a4min stop at Winchester. An unusual - and unavoidable- arrangement because of engineering work.
One of the 14 departures today left Winchester significantly early, as noted, and was held for time at Basingstoke.

If there is a regular pattern over time, steps can be taken to remedy it. For example, at Cononley in the mid 90s some down trains consistently left early (and when they didn't, waiting time blocked the level crossing), which was resolved by advertising the departure a minute earlier.

Similar things happen in other countries too - I believe there was a period when the inhabitants of Wolfsburg in Germany suffered from a series of fails to call....

 

[Bill57p9]

I had a very bad experience about 20 years ago missing the Edinburgh to London sleeper when it departed 45 minutes early.
(And yes I did have a reservation)

 

[Andy Pacer]

I had a very bad experience about 20 years ago missing the Edinburgh to London sleeper when it departed 45 minutes early.
(And yes I did have a reservation)

Blimey that's poor, how are people meant to mitigate for that?!

 

[357]

Blimey that's poor, how are people meant to mitigate for that?!

Someone will come along and blame the passenger, just wait!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2022 ==

An interesting one I've noticed myself is some drivers / guards close the doors 30 seconds before the booked departure time (timed to half minute) and some 30 seconds before the published departure time (potentially 60 seconds before departure time) and I'm not sure if one is right and one is wrong, or if it's down to their own choice.

So if a train is booked to leave at 10:00:30, but published to leave at 10:00, can the doors be closed at 09:59:30 or should staff wait for 10:00:00 to leave on the half minute?

 

[PGAT]

So if a train is booked to leave at 10:00:30, but published to leave at 10:00, can the doors be closed at 09:59:30 or should staff wait for 10:00:00 to leave on the half minute?

From my experience the former usually happens.

 

[skyhigh]

An interesting one I've noticed myself is some drivers / guards close the doors 30 seconds before the booked departure time (timed to half minute) and some 30 seconds before the published departure time (potentially 60 seconds before departure time) and I'm not sure if one is right and one is wrong, or if it's down to their own choice.

So if a train is booked to leave at 10:00:30, but published to leave at 10:00, can the doors be closed at 09:59:30 or should staff wait for 10:00:00 to leave on the half minute?

Personally I've never seen a docket that gives half minute timings.

 

[ComUtoR]

Personally I've never seen a docket that gives half minute timings.

I've seen plenty. We used to get them quite a lot but now we "save paper" and our schedules are printed with most of the useful information removed.

 

[lkpridgeon]

So I was waiting at Basingstoke platform 3 yesterday for the 17:35 to London Waterloo, a train arrived at 17:25 which I first assumed must be a different train but the departure board was saying the 17:35 was due next. Sure enough it was my train and this made be wonder how it made up so much time after departing Eastleigh.

Checking RTT for 1W66 it showed that it left Eastleigh spot on time at 16:58. However it appeared to arrive at Winchester 9 minutes early and then depart 8 minutes early. I didn't think this would be allowed?

The fact it was 10 minutes early into Basingstoke suggests the RTT data is correct, and it did sit at platform 3 for 10 minutes and depart Basingstoke on time. Confused.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y67310/2022-10-29/detailed#allox_id=0

Prior Portsmouth to Waterloo via Eastleigh cancelled (so clear path) and minimal staff at Winchester (usually there's a dispatcher) guard initiated self dispatch early most likely to cheat me out of delay repay

Dispatcher held it at Basingstoke after a couple of confused looks and hurriedly went to speak with the guard.

It happens at Winchester and my home station Micheldever from time to time as part of regular parlance when someone adds in too much pathing allowance (back in February we had 10 minute stops at Micheldever at 7 in the evening that oft left early).

 

[43066]

An interesting one I've noticed myself is some drivers / guards close the doors 30 seconds before the booked departure time (timed to half minute) and some 30 seconds before the published departure time (potentially 60 seconds before departure time) and I'm not sure if one is right and one is wrong, or if it's down to their own choice.

So if a train is booked to leave at 10:00:30, but published to leave at 10:00, can the doors be closed at 09:59:30 or should staff wait for 10:00:00 to leave on the half minute?

I’ve only ever seen them timed to the minute.

Policy at both TOCs I’ve worked at is close doors 30 seconds before departure which, taking into account the dispatch process, means the wheels start turning +\- a few seconds of the booked departure.

 

[185]

Interesting glitch on RTT... trains between 1638 & 1848 have disappeared

Realtime Trains | Departures from Winchester all day on 29/10/2022

Train information at Winchester all day on 29/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I suspect time travel.

 

[RJ]

They do sometimes. Once I had to travel from Lewisham to Denmark Hill and the train left 4 minutes early, so I missed it. I’d checked on the status of the train an hour, 30 minutes and 15 minutes before departure, it was showing on time so I walked to the station intending to be on the platform 3 minutes before departure.

The booked route from the Bexleyheath Line was blocked so it had been diverted non-stop via Sidcup. It took me less than a minute of investigating to determine this is what happened, but only after seeing on the departure board it had already gone.

However Southeastern vehemently denied the train left early. I immediately rang customer services to see if they could do anything to help me get me to Denmark Hill but they said I was mistaken and that the train was running late. They claimed it was delayed by 15 minutes and I should wait.

I made a complaint later on and even with the resources to check what had happen, Southeastern again completely denied it ran early. They then claimed the train had been cancelled and that they were correct in denying the train left early and tried to close the case down.

Eventually they had to admit it did leave early. But didn’t attempt any kind of service recovery and tried again to close the case down.

When it became clear it was going to cost them more to do this than address the complaint they grudgingly coughed up for the cost of the taxi to get me to Denmark Hill. That was about £17, where I estimate the cost of them denying what happened was at least £500.

The train got diverted, the signaller didn’t hold it at Hither Green or Parks Bridge, it was blocking two Cannon Street trains ex Orpington and Hayes at Lewisham so a conscious decision was made to send it 4 minutes early. Lewisham is a funny station, if trains booked to leave from platform 3 are diverted via platform 1, the PIS systems often do not reflect that until the train arrives, despite this being known from when the train is at least as far east as Crayford.

Surely as a TOC they must understand that if they authorise low frequency services to leave stations early, they might get complaints from customers. It was a pity they chose to handle it like that really as the metro operation is normally pretty good. The only other time I fed back to them on that part of the network was to commend a member of station staff at Lewisham for going above and beyond to help when I dropped my ID without realising one morning.

 

[43066]

The train got diverted, the signaller didn’t hold it at Hither Green or Parks Bridge, it was blocking two Cannon Street trains ex Orpington and Hayes at Lewisham so a conscious decision was made to send it 4 minutes early.

Makes perfect sense in those (relatively rare) circumstances to let it go early to avoid delaying far more passengers. Unless it was the last train most people would likely wait for the next one (half hourly) and then claim delay repay. Obviously denying it has run early is a bit off.

Where I work if a train closes its doors more than 30 seconds before time and someone complains about it, they get an apology and if it’s quicker to get them a taxi then they get one.

I’d be absolutely staggered if that’s the case, other than for cancelled last trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2022 ==

In my time as a Lewisham commuter, there was sometimes no warning that trains booked on platform 3 had been diverted and would leave from Platform 1.

You must be incredibly unlucky. In my two decades of commuting through Lewisham, and several years driving trains through the station, I’ve known of this happening half a dozen times at most and only ever during severe disruption.

 

[357]

I’ve only ever seen them timed to the minute.

Policy at both TOCs I’ve worked at is close doors 30 seconds before departure which, taking into account the dispatch process, means the wheels start turning +\- a few seconds of the booked departure.

Our STN/WTT/iPad all show half minute timing and many of our stations have a 1/2 minute departure

 

[43066]

Our STN/WTT/iPad all show half minute timing and many of our stations have a 1/2 minute departure

How does that work with the public timetable?

 

[357]

How does that work with the public timetable?

The public timetable shows 30 seconds earlier, always to the minute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2022 ==

Just checked our timetable PDF and it states 30 seconds before published departure, so in this case I'd say the crew are within their rights to close the doors at 10:09:30 for a departure scheduled for 10:10:30, as the published departure time is 10:10