Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

[Put Kettle On]

Or quite a bit extra delay, if it were to go slightly pear shaped & ran past

Would certainly make for an interesting interview

 

[Sunset route]

Our ARB states to push the button immediately unless it’s an obvious reason (such as this scenario). However, if I see a stopper leave a station 30 seconds in front of me, when the sensible thing to have done would have been to allow me to go first, or loop around it at another section but this opportunity is not taken, then I sometimes hit the SG button at every signal I’m brought to a stand at because I’m childish like that

I guess the tables also could be turned in that sometimes, when I press the SG button, I’m not even acknowledged, but when I call up after several minutes, the signaller seems almost

surprised.

I must admit at our location where we have multiple junctions one signal section after another, the over use of the SG button will get a response of a slower they normal passage, especially when we know the driver can see the train ahead or conflict ahead of them.

 

[83G/84D]

There's no way that a delay due to waiting signal could be even partially attributed to the driver failing to press SG, unless the use of the SG button would actually have reduced the delay - so, in practice, only where the signaller kept a signal at danger to speak to the driver but the driver never SG'd to advise that they were at a stand (but then why not use "contact signaller"?), or where the signaller forgot to pull off and the driver did nothing to remind them!

The rules are the rules, and for good reason too. Over-use undermines the value of the system. No point sending it, at least straight away, if you can see why you're being held.

I must admit that I do sometimes send it before I'm fully at a stand, at signals where I know it's likely that I've simply been overlooked! No criticism of signallers there either - been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I also know that I never actually know why I've been brought to a stand - it could just as easily be a line blockage that's a bit late being given back. I'd rather send SG as soon as I can just to try to avoid a delay having to be attributed though.

On that note, though - personally, there's few things more frustrating than being brought to a stand at a red at one of those locations, sending SG, seeing the signal come off straight to green a few seconds later, then receiving "wait" back a few seconds after that!

It's also very much appreciated when signallers respond to an SG with a phone call explaining what's going on, if it's going to be a bit more protracted than just waiting for a conflicting move over a junction. I obviously appreciate that it's often not possible, especially in a busy box, but conversely when I've stood at the section signal at a relatively quiet AB box for several minutes, it'd be so helpful to know what I'm following just so that I can drive accordingly when I do get the road (no point rushing if I'm only going to catch it up at the next box) and also to pass some info to the passengers via the guard!

I signal an ECS movement on nights that follows a passenger service on an AB line. It gets stopped at a couple of signals every night waiting for the passenger train to clear. Most drivers know the train service, drive accordingly and don’t press the button.

If anything out of the ordinary happens I advise the driver.

Separately If I want to speak to a driver I nearly always send them a contact signaller message and let them ring me when they are ready unless it is an urgent or emergency situation.

 

[driverd]

Why would anyone even consider doing such a thing, pressing the SG, which gives confirmation your train is STANDING at the signal, whilst not actually at a stand !!!

What could possibly go wrong?

I, quite literally yesterday, hit the SG button at 40 mph having just passed the single yellow.

Why? Because the windscreen wiper switch on that particular unit is right next to the GSMR unit, and my knuckle caught the button as I operated the switch!

Which leads me to two questions for the signallers (if you don't mind me going on...):
1. In this instance, would you prefer a courtesy call to apologise, or does it not really matter and in the grand scheme, dealing with a call to apologise would be more distracting than just cracking on?
2. Can you tell if the SG button is pressed before the unit is at a stand and does it actually make any practical difference in the box?

 

[Put Kettle On]

Why do you even need to ask a Signaller the above question.

Would you answer an incoming call from the Signaller after passing a single yellow ?

But here you ask if he would appreciate a call, whilst you are approaching a red, with the very real possibility of distraction from your primary task in hand.


The chances are the Signaller cannot tell, if you are at a stand or moving, but by sending SG, you are giving him confirmation the train is at a stand. This may allow him to set a conflicting move, knowing your movement is at a stand.

But wait, you somehow didn’t manage to actually stop, and went past Signal ?

It is logged you sent a standing at signal message, but is discovered you never actually stopped ?

Explain that one.

 

[83G/84D]

I, quite literally yesterday, hit the SG button at 40 mph having just passed the single yellow.

Why? Because the windscreen wiper switch on that particular unit is right next to the GSMR unit, and my knuckle caught the button as I operated the switch!

Which leads me to two questions for the signallers (if you don't mind me going on...):
1. In this instance, would you prefer a courtesy call to apologise, or does it not really matter and in the grand scheme, dealing with a call to apologise would be more distracting than just cracking on?
2. Can you tell if the SG button is pressed before the unit is at a stand and does it actually make any practical difference in the box?

It depends on type of signalling as to whether the Bobby knows exactly where you are. TCB is usually more accurate in that regard than AB. On my patch it’s AB so if you are in the section between boxes I would only be able to get an approximate location of a train by looking at the GSM-R terminal and seeing what base station you are shown under. Knowing running times between locations can give an idea as well.

 

[greatkingrat]

The chances are the Signaller cannot tell, if you are at a stand or moving, but by sending SG, you are giving him confirmation the train is at a stand. This may allow him to set a conflicting move, knowing your movement is at a stand.

But wait, you somehow didn’t manage to actually stop, and went past Signal ?

It is logged you sent a standing at signal message, but is discovered you never actually stopped ?

Explain that one.

The SG button is not part of the interlocking, whether the driver does or doesn't press it makes no difference to what routes can be set.

 

[43066]

Firstly, I should say this is no criticism of drivers, merely a question as to training of new drivers recently.

Recently, on several occasions in areas that I signal, due to delays, trains have been running under restrictive aspects due to the train in front being delayed; due to the timetable, it is sometimes the case that a semi-fast train can be delayed by a late all stations stopper in front of it. Often, the semi-fast will approach and stop at a signal at danger and hit SG (Waiting at signal) on the GSM-R; I hit the "WAIT" button and the driver is told to wait for the signal to clear. After around 30 seconds, the signal clears to a single yellow and the held train draws forward under caution, before stopping at the next signal (Again the signal is on) and the driver hits the SG again, leading me to hit the WAIT key.

This type of scenario frustrates me and my colleagues as signallers; if a driver encounters a signal at danger which clears after a short period and this happens again and again in each section, is it not obvious why the signal is on? In the areas I signal, I have seen via cab rides and local knowledge that, when standing at certain signals, it is possible to see the length of the section or conflicting move, so any reason for being held would be visible to a driver.

The Rule Book states that if a train is held for an obvious reason, the driver should wait for two minutes before contacting the box; I would argue that such scenarios are obvious, yet recently I have had drivers hit SG before their train has actuated the track circuit at the signal! Are new drivers being trained to question the danger aspect as soon as they observe it, regardless of the situation?

They probably are technically following what they’ve been told but, if I know I’m following something, I certainly wouldn’t be pressing it at every red. Seems very “passive aggressive”. I don’t know any experienced drivers who would.

I’ll generally do it immediately if I’m at an unexpected red. Otherwise depends where: eg I’ve recently started always doing it at a location where we wait at a red for a service to overtake, then follow it onto the fast lines. Quite a few times I’ve seen it go past, waited, waited, then hit SG only to see the signal go straight to green. So now I tend to SG immediately once I see the other train pass.

The chances are the Signaller cannot tell, if you are at a stand or moving, but by sending SG, you are giving him confirmation the train is at a stand. This may allow him to set a conflicting move, knowing your movement is at a stand.

Clearly it isn’t good practice to do it (although I’m sure we all have), but the signaller certainly doesn’t wait for an SG before setting a conflicting route across a junction already protected by a red! The big risk is that he immediately calls you, you get distracted and have a low speed SPAD.

 

[Put Kettle On]

I am fully aware of interlocking, etc & the no need to await an SG message to allow other routes or conflicting moves etc to be set.
You would not speak to a Signaller & tell him you were at a stand, when you weren't, so why press a button which tells him you are at a stand, ( meaning you actually have to perform an action (s) to get moving again, & are unlikely to do so of your own accord ) when you are still on the move, & there is a distinct possibility you may well continue to move ( whether deliberately or inadvertently).

 

[43066]

You would not speak to a Signaller & tell him you were at a stand, when you weren't, so why press a button which tells him you are at a stand, ( meaning you actually have to perform an action (s) to get moving again, & are unlikely to do so of your own accord ) when you are still on the move, & there is a distinct possibility you may well continue to move ( whether deliberately or inadvertently).

Because you’re feeling impatient and we can’t all be perfect all of the time?!

 

[driverd]

Why do you even need to ask a Signaller the above question.

Would you answer an incoming call from the Signaller after passing a single yellow ?

But here you ask if he would appreciate a call, whilst you are approaching a red, with the very real possibility of distraction from your primary task in hand.

Wow, it's like a post incident interview with you.

Calm down.

If you want me to engage in this, I'd prefer to be treated with mutual respect. Establish the facts before you make assumptions and accusations.

At my TOC, we can't use the GSMR on the move. I would have only made such a call once stopping at the red (in this case, it cleared up on approach due to entering a platform permissively). I considered making a courtesy call to the signaller once arrived at the station.

The reason I asked this question is because I am wondering, from a signallers perspective, if it might cause confusion in the box to receive an SG from a train some distance from the signal whilst on the move, and if a courtesy call to explain would be appropriate, in much the same way you would if you accidentally pressed the call signaller button.

The chances are the Signaller cannot tell, if you are at a stand or moving, but by sending SG, you are giving him confirmation the train is at a stand. This may allow him to set a conflicting move, knowing your movement is at a stand.

As others have explained, the SG and signalling of movements are unrelated.

But wait, you somehow didn’t manage to actually stop, and went past Signal ?

Not sure what this statement relates to.

It is logged you sent a standing at signal message, but is discovered you never actually stopped ?

Explain that one.

...my knuckle caught the SG button as I operated the windscreen wiper switch?

 

[83G/84D]

Understanding each other’s roles might help explain some of things being discussed here. Years ago signallers could sometimes get cab passes and ride with the driver and train crew visited signal boxes.

Sadly this doesn’t generally happen anymore.

 

[Put Kettle On]

DriverD

All perfectly calm here.

If you follow the posts, there was only the one I actually replied to you, the other ones in your quotes relate to different posts & replies, & if you follow the thread, I have already explained I fully understand interlocking & the SG button have no connection or relevance to route setting.

 

[43066]

Understanding each other’s roles might help explain some of things being discussed here. Years ago signallers could sometimes get cab passes and ride with the driver and train crew visited signal boxes.

Sadly this doesn’t generally happen anymore.

Totally agree!

I have already explained I fully understand interlocking & the SG button have no connection or relevance to route setting

So why did you say:

but by sending SG, you are giving him confirmation the train is at a stand. This may allow him to set a conflicting move, knowing your movement is at a stand.

As explained above this is wrong because the movement will or won’t be set regardless.

 

[Put Kettle On]

This may allow . Not WILL allow. It may also allow him to do various other things, answer phone, call another driver, make tea, speak to Control, maintenance staff etc.

I then went on after your post ( the one you already quoted, but missed out the very first part ) to write that I fully understood interlocking & the fact that SG has no connection or relevance to route setting.

 

[Falcon1200]

Understanding each other’s roles might help explain some of things being discussed here. Years ago signallers could sometimes get cab passes and ride with the driver and train crew visited signal boxes.

Totally agree also! And not just Drivers and Signallers, Controllers (both NR and TOC) and yes, Delay Attribution staff too would all benefit.

 

[172007]

Not sure many drivers know what SG stand for tbh. We are told to press it when at a red signal as per rule book time period. No mention is said what SG stands for.

What muddies the water is that the ST button is drummed in to mean that I conform I am at a Stand and acknowledged the message.

There have been conversations on this forum in the past that firmly shows that drivers are not told what SG means.

 

[endofthetunnel]

As a signaller, if I got an SG message from a train which shouldn’t be standing at a red, I’d certainly be confused and might call the driver at the next station or next time it stops. If I never heard anything else I’d assume it was just an error and move on with my life.

In general we can’t tell if trains are moving or not, other than our local knowledge of track circuit lengths etc. There’s a few approach released signals which we often get a Standing at Signal message as the driver is stopping and then the signal inevitably steps up… these ones annoy me.

It’s also annoying that we only have the one response - Wait, or we can just ignore it.

As far as we’re taught, ST is used to acknowledge that something has been underSTood. That might be an caution/ESR while on-the-move GSMR broadcast instruction, or it might be a Emergency Group Call that you’ve understood (and are therefore stopping)

 

[GN Boy]

Not sure many drivers know what SG stand for tbh. We are told to press it when at a red signal as per rule book time period. No mention is said what SG stands for.

What muddies the water is that the ST button is drummed in to mean that I conform I am at a Stand and acknowledged the message.

There have been conversations on this forum in the past that firmly shows that drivers are not told what SG means.

“Signal -> green”, right?

 

[43066]

This may allow . Not WILL allow. It may also allow him to do various other things, answer phone, call another driver, make tea, speak to Control, maintenance staff etc.

AIUI it doesn’t “allow” him to do anything, albeit if he understands you’re not moving he might call you whereas he wouldn’t if you might still be approaching the red.

“Signal -> green”, right?

I thought it was “Send Green!”.

 

[skyhigh]

It’s also annoying that we only have the one response - Wait, or we can just ignore it.

I've always thought that. Having a range of responses such as "Following train" or "All Platforms Occupied" would be much more useful than just "Wait" or the signaller having to call.

 

[endofthetunnel]

I’m told by someone involved in the initial trials that text messages were meant to play a bigger part in GSMR but they were ‘abused’ by signallers sending things like football scores as broadcast texts. You would think a preset list of useful responses wouldn’t be too hard to add though.

[As an aside on behalf of many of my colleagues, can we try to remember in the thread that not all signallers are men!]

 

[Boilinthebag]

I've always found module S4 and reminding the signaller of the presence of your train fascinating when you look back at the history of the railway and how vital this was under absolute block and the days of signing the train register regularly. It's probably overdue for a change since the GSMR was introduced. As far as I read it you have to remind the signaller immediately unless there is a clear and obvious reason why you have been held and then it's after 2 minutes, and 10 minutes if the white diamond is present. But it hasn't really changed since the days of when you had to use the SPT which would take you a couple of minutes anyway.

 

[skyhigh]

I’m told by someone involved in the initial trials that text messages were meant to play a bigger part in GSMR but they were ‘abused’ by signallers sending things like football scores as broadcast texts.

Unfortunately that wouldn't surprise me! I know when GSMR first came into use here we could dial any phone number and make a call...

 

[Efini92]

Firstly, I should say this is no criticism of drivers, merely a question as to training of new drivers recently.

Recently, on several occasions in areas that I signal, due to delays, trains have been running under restrictive aspects due to the train in front being delayed; due to the timetable, it is sometimes the case that a semi-fast train can be delayed by a late all stations stopper in front of it. Often, the semi-fast will approach and stop at a signal at danger and hit SG (Waiting at signal) on the GSM-R; I hit the "WAIT" button and the driver is told to wait for the signal to clear. After around 30 seconds, the signal clears to a single yellow and the held train draws forward under caution, before stopping at the next signal (Again the signal is on) and the driver hits the SG again, leading me to hit the WAIT key.

This type of scenario frustrates me and my colleagues as signallers; if a driver encounters a signal at danger which clears after a short period and this happens again and again in each section, is it not obvious why the signal is on? In the areas I signal, I have seen via cab rides and local knowledge that, when standing at certain signals, it is possible to see the length of the section or conflicting move, so any reason for being held would be visible to a driver.

The Rule Book states that if a train is held for an obvious reason, the driver should wait for two minutes before contacting the box; I would argue that such scenarios are obvious, yet recently I have had drivers hit SG before their train has actuated the track circuit at the signal! Are new drivers being trained to question the danger aspect as soon as they observe it, regardless of the situation?

The problem is there are lots of occasions, especially at WMSC where you are brought down to a red only for it to clear to a green for no obvious reason.
Only the other night I left wolves 5 mins late even though there was no other movement for miles. It was only after pressing the SG button that the signal cleared.
Whilst we’re on the subject of SG why do signallers wait until the train is moving again (after clearing the signal) to send wait back?

 

[endofthetunnel]

Whilst we’re on the subject of SG why do signallers wait until the train is moving again (after clearing the signal) to send wait back?

More likely is they’ve sent Wait and then got on with setting the route, but the interlocking is quicker than the GSMR. It takes a good 15s sometimes for the system to send the message. I could happily ask the same question ’Why do drivers send Standing at Signal when I’ve just cleared it?’

They might though just press ‘wait’ rather than remove to clear the message, despite having already set the route.

It’s worth knowing/remembering that even in a ROC the two systems aren’t connected, so the signaller will be moving between panel/levers/workstation and GSMR to connect the dots of which train is at which signal and why. It’s not like it makes the headcode flash in the berth or anything (as one driver once said he thought!)

 

[Krokodil]

It’s worth knowing/remembering that even in a ROC the two systems aren’t connected, so the signaller will be moving between panel/levers/workstation and GSMR to connect the dots of which train is at which signal and why. It’s not like it makes the headcode flash in the berth or anything (as one driver once said he thought!)

Unlike with some of the older forms of SPT concentrators in PSBs where the buttons were attached to each berth in the train describer.

 

[43066]

It’s worth knowing/remembering that even in a ROC the two systems aren’t connected, so the signaller will be moving between panel/levers/workstation and GSMR to connect the dots of which train is at which signal and why. It’s not like it makes the headcode flash in the berth or anything (as one driver once said he thought!)

Something I didn’t realise, thanks for pointing out. You’d assume at ROCs at least it would all be integrated, but of course this is the railway isn’t it .

 

[Put Kettle On]

As explained above this is wrong because the movement will or won’t be set regardless.

Not in all cases.

There are locations where the route is set with points set for the movement, but the signal at danger, preventing movement past signal.

If a train were to pass the signal, the Signaller has a SPAD to deal with. If the points were set against the movement, there could well be a SPAD & damaged points to deal with.

Only once the SG message is sent, you can then see the points being set for another route & that route cleared, this only being done once the SG has been sent.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

It’s not like it makes the headcode flash in the berth or anything (as one driver once said he thought!

I think if it was upto drivers what the SG button does, it would be the berth flashing in neon lights accompanied by a siren louder than the SPAD alarm especially if it’s their going home train