Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

[Efini92]

More likely is they’ve sent Wait and then got on with setting the route, but the interlocking is quicker than the GSMR. It takes a good 15s sometimes for the system to send the message. I could happily ask the same question ’Why do drivers send Standing at Signal when I’ve just cleared it?’

They might though just press ‘wait’ rather than remove to clear the message, despite having already set the route.

It’s worth knowing/remembering that even in a ROC the two systems aren’t connected, so the signaller will be moving between panel/levers/workstation and GSMR to connect the dots of which train is at which signal and why. It’s not like it makes the headcode flash in the berth or anything (as one driver once said he thought!)

Interesting. Thanks for the response.
I honestly thought it was the signaller “having the last say” after they’ve seen you moving.

 

[83G/84D]

I’m told by someone involved in the initial trials that text messages were meant to play a bigger part in GSMR but they were ‘abused’ by signallers sending things like football scores as broadcast texts. You would think a preset list of useful responses wouldn’t be too hard to add though.

[As an aside on behalf of many of my colleagues, can we try to remember in the thread that not all signallers are men!]

I heard a similar story about text messages being abused, was in a trial area in Glasgow I was told.

Not sure if that is true!

 

[Tomnick]

@Put Kettle On , sorry, I can't quote your post. I'm having horrendous trouble composing posts on mobile!

I suspect that what you're seeing there is points in the overlap required set within the interlocking, being released when the train has been timed to a stand by the interlocking. That this happens just as you come to a stand and press SG proves that the interlocking's timing is pretty much spot on!

As a former signaller, I can't think of anywhere where you'd routinely rely on SG in those circumstances.

 

[Krokodil]

Not in all cases.

There are locations where the route is set with points set for the movement, but the signal at danger, preventing movement past signal.

If a train were to pass the signal, the Signaller has a SPAD to deal with. If the points were set against the movement, there could well be a SPAD & damaged points to deal with.

Only once the SG message is sent, you can then see the points being set for another route & that route cleared, this only being done once the SG has been sent.

In PSBs and ROCs the overlap will continue to lock the route beyond the signal until a suitable period of time has elapsed for a train to stop and points can be swung. Mechanical boxes do not have this protection built into the interlocking but the signaller should be able to see the train stop.

If you can find a written instruction that tells the signaller that when the "SG" button is pressed by a driver, he/she can confidently assume that the train is stopped then I would be interested to see it.

 

[Kneedown]

I'll have to double check the exact wording, but i'm pretty sure the Rule Book states that the Driver MUST contact the Signaller immediately, but MAY wait UP TO 2 minutes if there is an obvious reason for the delay.
That reads to me that there is no requirement to wait a full 2 minutes, and pressing SG immediately is perfectly acceptable.

 

[martin2345uk]

I'll have to double check the exact wording, but i'm pretty sure the Rule Book states that the Driver MUST contact the Signaller immediately, but MAY wait UP TO 2 minutes if there is an obvious reason for the delay.
That reads to me that there is no requirement to wait a full 2 minutes, and pressing SG immediately is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Meerkat]

That reads like a safety based rule, which I assume is based on the risk of being forgotten about when there aren't track circuits.
Is it still relevant - are there currently still berths without a protecting track circuit - or could the rule be rewritten to be an operationally motivated one that is less strict?

I know with shortages and shiftwork it is lot harder to organise than in other industries but it does sound like a driver/signaller get together would be very useful.
In my totally different industry a pretty adversarial relationship was transformed when we workers were got in a room together to understand each others work and problems, and then sent down the pub. After that we sorted nearly everything out between us and the managers had far less arguing to do!

I have seen various cab ride videos made by train drivers. Are there similarly enthusiastic types in the signalling trade? Between them they could make short videos for each other showing scenarios, aimed at the other profession, which could be watched at the target audiences convenience.

 

[Kneedown]

View attachment 129638

That's it thanks. Saves me rummaging in my locker when I go in later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==

That reads like a safety based rule, which I assume is based on the risk of being forgotten about when there aren't track circuits.
Is it still relevant - are there currently still berths without a protecting track circuit - or could the rule be rewritten to be an operationally motivated one that is less strict?

Whether still relevant or not, the rule still has to be applied until such time as it is superceded.
It's no simple task changing rules. It involves discussions and agreements between parties much higher up the food chain than Drivers or Signallers, and a lot of ensuring that any change does not diminish safety in differing scenarios.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I have seen various cab ride videos made by train drivers. Are there similarly enthusiastic types in the signalling trade? Between them they could make short videos for each other showing scenarios, aimed at the other profession, which could be watched at the target audiences convenience.

That’s a great idea! You could get Drivers to submit anonymous reports of ‘things the Signallers at X location do that frustrate me’. Then go to the Signalboxes with those reports and they can then create a video to explain the reasons certain situations occur and even a visual demonstration where relevant. These videos can then be part of safety briefs for Drivers.
Exactly the same from the other side too, Signallers could submit reports about Drivers for the Driving side to then create a video to be shown to the Signalling side.
This doesn’t even have to be gripes from both parties either, could even include questions (Drivers could ask Signallers what their role is like during degraded working, how stressful is it and are there things Drivers can do to help)

 

[Meerkat]

This doesn’t even have to be gripes from both parties either, could even include questions (Drivers could ask Signallers what their role is like during degraded working, how stressful is it and are there things Drivers can do to help)

That's why you need an enthusiastic (but active driver/signaller) person to make the video/blog. They take all the gripes and grumbles from their side and turn them into polite queries

 

[43066]

That reads like a safety based rule, which I assume is based on the risk of being forgotten about when there aren't track circuits.
Is it still relevant - are there currently still berths without a protecting track circuit - or could the rule be rewritten to be an operationally motivated one that is less strict?

In an era of more train movements controlled by fewer signallers it’s perhaps equally relevant, but for the slightly different reason of keeping the network moving! Minimising delays has the secondary safety benefit of reducing the risk of egresses being operated etc.

I know with shortages and shiftwork it is lot harder to organise than in other industries but it does sound like a driver/signaller get together would be very useful.
In my totally different industry a pretty adversarial relationship was transformed when we workers were got in a room together to understand each others work and problems, and then sent down the pub. After that we sorted nearly everything out between us and the managers had far less arguing to do!

Completely agree with this.

 

[Meerkat]

In an era of more train movements controlled by fewer signallers it’s perhaps equally relevant, but for the slightly different reason of keeping the network moving! Minimising delays has the secondary safety benefit of reducing the risk of egresses being operated etc.

Absolutely. But the rule is written like a safety rule - MUST. If it is about operations rather than safety it could be rewritten in a way that gives drivers flexibility to use their route knowledge and experience.

 

[godfreycomplex]

That's why you need an enthusiastic (but active driver/signaller) person to make the video/blog. They take all the gripes and grumbles from their side and turn them into polite queries

On a serious note if anyone from the driving side is interested in doing this feel free to send me a PM and I’ll (unofficially) do what I can

 

[TheBigD]

In the last month I have had a couple of drivers (colas) visit one of the boxes I sign whilst they were route learning the route. That's the only time ive had druvers in the box asking questions in the 12 years I've been signalling.

When I did my IST back in 2011 I also had a whole day cab riding as part of that. Even then others on the course, including the trainers, said that was very unusual.

 

[newtownmgr]

Tend to wait the 2 mins if i know I’m following something or at the usual pinch points where we normally get stopped.
Will only hit the SG if i deem it to be an unusual stop, as it may be the signaller needs to speak to me or they may have forgotten to set the route up/drop barriers due to being distracted by something else taking place on the line of route they cover.
On the flip side & likewise not a criticism is the contact signaller message coming up when you’ve just past a single yellow,We have to be at a stand to contact the signaller so will tend to bring the train to a stand at the red as that’s the point they need to caution you from potentially. I’m guessing it’s due to the placement of track circuits/axle counters so the signaller believes we are already stood at the red,when we are in fact some distance away,possibly out of site of it.

Obviously if the signaller needed to speak to us immediately then he would do it via an urgent or emergency broadcast.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==

In the last month I have had a couple of drivers (colas) visit one of the boxes I sign whilst they were route learning the route. That's the only time ive had druvers in the box asking questions in the 12 years I've been signalling.

When I did my IST back in 2011 I also had a whole day cab riding as part of that. Even then others on the course, including the trainers, said that was very unusual.

Always used to get new signallers coming for a ride of the patch they will cover. Always found it advantageous for both sides as they could see what we see & we could explain some of the issues we had & likewise feedback from them. These days i probably know a quarter of the signallers where as 30 years ago we all knew each other. It would be good if something could be put in place with these ROC’s as we now have signallers who are controlling routes they’ve never seen or likely too other than on computer moniter. Likewise it would be handy for drivers to visit ROC’s. New drivers may do as part of the training but would be handy for experienced drivers to see as all.

 

[Stigy]

Tend to wait the 2 mins if i know I’m following something or at the usual pinch points where we normally get stopped.
Will only hit the SG if i deem it to be an unusual stop, as it may be the signaller needs to speak to me or they may have forgotten to set the route up/drop barriers due to being distracted by something else taking place on the line of route they cover.
On the flip side & likewise not a criticism is the contact signaller message coming up when you’ve just past a single yellow,We have to be at a stand to contact the signaller so will tend to bring the train to a stand at the red as that’s the point they need to caution you from potentially. I’m guessing it’s due to the placement of track circuits/axle counters so the signaller believes we are already stood at the red,when we are in fact some distance away,possibly out of site of it.

I guess the “contact signaller” message is often sent regardless of the fact you have a red ahead just to get us to call him when we can. I find it worse when he calls me…not sure if all GSMR is the same across the country, but if we don’t answer, it answers itself, but there’s no hands free function so you just get the signaller speaking over the in-cab speakers but aren’t able to answer him unless you physically pick up the handset.

 

[Annetts key]

Some comments from a S&T perspective.

The signaller of a PSB/panel/ROC (or equivalent) can only request a route for a controlled signal. It’s the interlocking/signalling system that determines when a signal may clear. Before a signal can clear, the interlocking will check (and if needed, move), any points (including flank protection), check the state of any other routes that may be opposing or conflicting, and maybe other things.

I mention this, because they may be a short delay before the signal you (as a driver) can see, or the next signal can clear up. In certain circumstances, it could take considerably longer.

For example, if the signal spacing is not sufficient for service braking distance, or if there is another reason for a delayed aspect clearance, then a signal may stay red even though the section (ahead) is clear of any train.

And as you likely know, with some signals such as automatics, the signaller either has only an emergency replacement facility (to put it to red), or no control over it at all.

 

[LRV3004]

Firstly, I should say this is no criticism of drivers, merely a question as to training of new drivers recently.

Recently, on several occasions in areas that I signal, due to delays, trains have been running under restrictive aspects due to the train in front being delayed; due to the timetable, it is sometimes the case that a semi-fast train can be delayed by a late all stations stopper in front of it. Often, the semi-fast will approach and stop at a signal at danger and hit SG (Waiting at signal) on the GSM-R; I hit the "WAIT" button and the driver is told to wait for the signal to clear. After around 30 seconds, the signal clears to a single yellow and the held train draws forward under caution, before stopping at the next signal (Again the signal is on) and the driver hits the SG again, leading me to hit the WAIT key.

This type of scenario frustrates me and my colleagues as signallers; if a driver encounters a signal at danger which clears after a short period and this happens again and again in each section, is it not obvious why the signal is on? In the areas I signal, I have seen via cab rides and local knowledge that, when standing at certain signals, it is possible to see the length of the section or conflicting move, so any reason for being held would be visible to a driver.

The Rule Book states that if a train is held for an obvious reason, the driver should wait for two minutes before contacting the box; I would argue that such scenarios are obvious, yet recently I have had drivers hit SG before their train has actuated the track circuit at the signal! Are new drivers being trained to question the danger aspect as soon as they observe it, regardless of the situation?

I’ll answer this as a newly-qualified driver! Our Delays Attribution manager has drilled it into us to hit the “SG” as soon as we stop at a red. That way, if we do incur a delay for whatever reason, it will show up that we made an effort and hit “SG”. Personally, I don’t like pressing it as I don’t want to be seen as pestering the signaller! If I’m running early, I don’t bother pressing it; I only press it if my departure time comes around and the signal is still red!

 

[43066]

Our Delays Attribution manager has drilled it into us to hit the “SG” as soon as we stop at a red. That way, if we do incur a delay for whatever reason, it will show up that we made an effort and hit “SG”.

I would advise you to ignore your “Delays Attribution Manager”. It won’t show up anywhere whether you’ve hit SG or not, and has nothing whatsoever to do with delay attribution, as discussed above.

Delays are irrelevant to you anyway in terms of “making an effort”. The only effort you need to make is to not have any any incidents…

 

[Annetts key]

On the flip side & likewise not a criticism is the contact signaller message coming up when you’ve just past a single yellow,We have to be at a stand to contact the signaller so will tend to bring the train to a stand at the red as that’s the point they need to caution you from potentially. I’m guessing it’s due to the placement of track circuits/axle counters so the signaller believes we are already stood at the red,when we are in fact some distance away,possibly out of site of it.

That sounds more like they have seen the TD for your train move into the ‘berth’ for the red signal. In practice, the TD is ahead of the train most of the time, as the system steps the TD forward each time you pass a main aspect signal (or a GPL if exiting sidings or similar).

 

[endofthetunnel]

That sounds more like they have seen the TD for your train move into the ‘berth’ for the red signal. In practice, the TD is ahead of the train most of the time, as the system steps the TD forward each time you pass a main aspect signal (or a GPL if exiting sidings or similar).

Personally I’ll send a contact sig as soon as the train in the berth of the signal, therefore is approaching the red. I think that way the driver knows to contact me as soon as they’re stopped- rather than waiting for 2 mins then sending an SG, or crawling up to the red in hope it might step up etc.
I know full well you won’t call until stopped but it means we’re both ready for it then!

 

[GN Boy]

I guess the “contact signaller” message is often sent regardless of the fact you have a red ahead just to get us to call him when we can. I find it worse when he calls me…not sure if all GSMR is the same across the country, but if we don’t answer, it answers itself, but there’s no hands free function so you just get the signaller speaking over the in-cab speakers but aren’t able to answer him unless you physically pick up the handset.

It is the same on the units we drive too. It frustrates me if I’m crawling up to a red and the signaller decides to call (not even sending a ‘contact signaller’ initially), resulting in “Hello? Hello driver?” echoing around the cab.

 

[TheBigD]

We are instructed not to call trains on the move (unless urgent/emergency call), just send the contact signaller message and then the driver calls in at his leisure. Some ring in on the move, some come to a stand first.

 

[ComUtoR]

No system is perfect. Yesterday I had a CONTACT SIGNALLER message, so I stopped and called the box but they didn't answer.

A little situational awareness and professionalism and I noticed the mainliner getting checked down and then the road coming off. And then the one on the down clearly getting checked down. Most likely we all got sent the contact message.

Not sure why I need to get frustrated about it or let it bother me.

I think a little tolerance goes a long way.

 

[185143]

I appreciate the call, but I had to admit my heart sinks if I press SG and get called back! Usually means the next words I'll hear are "Yeah what it is Drive...." and its never a simple delay.

I only press it when it's not obvious. Or at departure time at a station that doesn't have TRTS. I know the locations where I shouldn't be held in a perfect world, but if I am I know what I'm waiting for, so don't bother unless that delay starts to get to be more than I'd usually expect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2023 ==


I do it too, and sometimes it clears R to G and I don't have to stop.

But like Tomnick, that's only in areas I know we could have been forgotten- quite common to get a red at a panel change, for example!

My first thought upon reading that is in reference to the Bridge at Alvechurch Station.

If you know, you know

 

[Efini92]

My first thought upon reading that is in reference to the Bridge at Alvechurch Station.

If you know, you know

Ha ha T%#%## on the bridge.

 

[dk1]

We are instructed not to call trains on the move (unless urgent/emergency call), just send the contact signaller message and then the driver calls in at his leisure. Some ring in on the move, some come to a stand first.

My thoughts exactly. Happens all the time & im happy to answer on the move. When you’ve worked an RETB line trivialities like that are no problem.

 

[newtownmgr]

Personally I’ll send a contact sig as soon as the train in the berth of the signal, therefore is approaching the red. I think that way the driver knows to contact me as soon as they’re stopped- rather than waiting for 2 mins then sending an SG, or crawling up to the red in hope it might step up etc.
I know full well you won’t call until stopped but it means we’re both ready for it then!

Yes exactly on both. At least from the drivers point we know something is occurring & we can get ready, with pen & paper if need be & tip the guard off. On occasion almost as soon as we get the contact signaller the guard is on the cab to cab with a message from control so we know what to expect.

 

[driverd]

My thoughts exactly. Happens all the time & im happy to answer on the move. When you’ve worked an RETB line trivialities like that are no problem.

It's just dependent on your professional driving policy. We've had people dragged into the office for using it on the move so, for me atleast, that's a conversation I'd rather avoid.

Not the same everywhere of course and must be a nightmare for the signallers, trying to work out who's going to stop and who will just keep moving.

 

[dk1]

It's just dependent on your professional driving policy. We've had people dragged into the office for using it on the move so, for me atleast, that's a conversation I'd rather avoid.

Not the same everywhere of course and must be a nightmare for the signallers, trying to work out who's going to stop and who will just keep moving.

I do like the automated announcement that you can reply & confirm you understand the caution by pressing the ST button. Worked perfectly last summer with the heat speed restrictions saving copious amounts of delay minutes with signals clearing ahead of you in good time.