Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

[BrummieBobby]

Firstly, I should say this is no criticism of drivers, merely a question as to training of new drivers recently.

Recently, on several occasions in areas that I signal, due to delays, trains have been running under restrictive aspects due to the train in front being delayed; due to the timetable, it is sometimes the case that a semi-fast train can be delayed by a late all stations stopper in front of it. Often, the semi-fast will approach and stop at a signal at danger and hit SG (Waiting at signal) on the GSM-R; I hit the "WAIT" button and the driver is told to wait for the signal to clear. After around 30 seconds, the signal clears to a single yellow and the held train draws forward under caution, before stopping at the next signal (Again the signal is on) and the driver hits the SG again, leading me to hit the WAIT key.

This type of scenario frustrates me and my colleagues as signallers; if a driver encounters a signal at danger which clears after a short period and this happens again and again in each section, is it not obvious why the signal is on? In the areas I signal, I have seen via cab rides and local knowledge that, when standing at certain signals, it is possible to see the length of the section or conflicting move, so any reason for being held would be visible to a driver.

The Rule Book states that if a train is held for an obvious reason, the driver should wait for two minutes before contacting the box; I would argue that such scenarios are obvious, yet recently I have had drivers hit SG before their train has actuated the track circuit at the signal! Are new drivers being trained to question the danger aspect as soon as they observe it, regardless of the situation?

 

[class ep-09]

Appendixes to the Rule Book , which each TOC has , may be more restrictive .
Driver may be required to press SG as soon as a train stops .

 

[sportzbar]

New(ish) driver here. At my TOC we are definitely taught to the rule book standard to wait 2 minutes before pressing the SG. However there are those at my TOC who for some reason will press the SG straight away regardless.

I recently had a conversation with a couple of mangers regarding this and one agreed with me whilst the other stated that the SG should be pressed straight away. When questioned where this "press straight away" rule had come from he couldn't answer.....

I will stick to the rule book definition and will until it is changed or an amended instruction comes from above via a briefing or being posted in the notice cases.....

 

[dk1]

I tend to use my common sense & then only press SG as a last resort. I don’t like to pester the signaller unnecessarily regardless of what the rule book states.

 

[Moonshot]

Firstly, I should say this is no criticism of drivers, merely a question as to training of new drivers recently.

Recently, on several occasions in areas that I signal, due to delays, trains have been running under restrictive aspects due to the train in front being delayed; due to the timetable, it is sometimes the case that a semi-fast train can be delayed by a late all stations stopper in front of it. Often, the semi-fast will approach and stop at a signal at danger and hit SG (Waiting at signal) on the GSM-R; I hit the "WAIT" button and the driver is told to wait for the signal to clear. After around 30 seconds, the signal clears to a single yellow and the held train draws forward under caution, before stopping at the next signal (Again the signal is on) and the driver hits the SG again, leading me to hit the WAIT key.

This type of scenario frustrates me and my colleagues as signallers; if a driver encounters a signal at danger which clears after a short period and this happens again and again in each section, is it not obvious why the signal is on? In the areas I signal, I have seen via cab rides and local knowledge that, when standing at certain signals, it is possible to see the length of the section or conflicting move, so any reason for being held would be visible to a driver.

The Rule Book states that if a train is held for an obvious reason, the driver should wait for two minutes before contacting the box; I would argue that such scenarios are obvious, yet recently I have had drivers hit SG before their train has actuated the track circuit at the signal! Are new drivers being trained to question the danger aspect as soon as they observe it, regardless of the situation?

Why don't you just ring the driver and let them know they will be running behind an all stopper?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

New(ish) driver here. At my TOC we are definitely taught to the rule book standard to wait 2 minutes before pressing the SG. However there are those at my TOC who for some reason will press the SG straight away regardless.

I recently had a conversation with a couple of mangers regarding this and one agreed with me whilst the other stated that the SG should be pressed straight away. When questioned where this "press straight away" rule had come from he couldn't answer.....

I will stick to the rule book definition and will until it is changed or an amended instruction comes from above via a briefing or being posted in the notice cases.....

Reason being is to do with delay attribution. If you press SG straight away, delay gets attributed to the box. If you don’t press it straight away (and consequently don’t press it at all if signal clears shortly afterwards), delay may get attributed to the driver/train. Note, I don’t agree with or do this and think the whole delay attribution system is nonsense but there you go.

 

[Falcon1200]

Reason being is to do with delay attribution. If you press SG straight away, delay gets attributed to the box. If you don’t press it straight away (and consequently don’t press it at all if signal clears shortly afterwards), delay may get attributed to the driver/train.

If a train is delayed by being stopped at a signal, the delay attribution is against the reason that the signal was at danger, whatever that might be.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

If a train is delayed by being stopped at a signal, the delay attribution is against the reason that the signal was at danger, whatever that might be.

In theory perhaps…

 

[mandub]

Surprised drivers are pressing it straight away when running on single yellows, unless the TOC is telling them to.

At my depot I'd guess most well leave it longer than 2 mins in majority of cases. I leave it 3-5 mins in most locations as you get held at same locations a lot and you know the likely reason.
Though there's a couple of signal boxes (or individual signallers?) where I'll press it straight away as they've held me a good few times before when they don't need to and it changes straight to green after "wait"

 

[Socanxdis]

Why do some signallers wait till the train has stopped at the signal protecting the level crossing, before they start lowering the barriers?

 

[Tomnick]

There's no way that a delay due to waiting signal could be even partially attributed to the driver failing to press SG, unless the use of the SG button would actually have reduced the delay - so, in practice, only where the signaller kept a signal at danger to speak to the driver but the driver never SG'd to advise that they were at a stand (but then why not use "contact signaller"?), or where the signaller forgot to pull off and the driver did nothing to remind them!

The rules are the rules, and for good reason too. Over-use undermines the value of the system. No point sending it, at least straight away, if you can see why you're being held.

I must admit that I do sometimes send it before I'm fully at a stand, at signals where I know it's likely that I've simply been overlooked! No criticism of signallers there either - been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I also know that I never actually know why I've been brought to a stand - it could just as easily be a line blockage that's a bit late being given back. I'd rather send SG as soon as I can just to try to avoid a delay having to be attributed though.

On that note, though - personally, there's few things more frustrating than being brought to a stand at a red at one of those locations, sending SG, seeing the signal come off straight to green a few seconds later, then receiving "wait" back a few seconds after that!

It's also very much appreciated when signallers respond to an SG with a phone call explaining what's going on, if it's going to be a bit more protracted than just waiting for a conflicting move over a junction. I obviously appreciate that it's often not possible, especially in a busy box, but conversely when I've stood at the section signal at a relatively quiet AB box for several minutes, it'd be so helpful to know what I'm following just so that I can drive accordingly when I do get the road (no point rushing if I'm only going to catch it up at the next box) and also to pass some info to the passengers via the guard!

 

[PudseyBearHST]

It’s not so much the driver failing to press the SG, it’s the fact that it can’t be accidentally attributed to the driver/train if the SG is pressed. There’s plenty of occasions where delay is wrongly attributed to the driver/train for whatever reason hence why you’re getting phone calls from control asking why you were late.

 

[387star]

I just use common sense... as I do with my driving. For instance I don't pointlessly crawl in good weather towards a red which is on an uphill gradient and which has good sighting

 

[Stigy]

Our ARB states to push the button immediately unless it’s an obvious reason (such as this scenario). However, if I see a stopper leave a station 30 seconds in front of me, when the sensible thing to have done would have been to allow me to go first, or loop around it at another section but this opportunity is not taken, then I sometimes hit the SG button at every signal I’m brought to a stand at because I’m childish like that

I guess the tables also could be turned in that sometimes, when I press the SG button, I’m not even acknowledged, but when I call up after several minutes, the signaller seems almost surprised.

 

[bazzarati]

Firstly, I should say this is no criticism of drivers, merely a question as to training of new drivers recently.

Recently, on several occasions in areas that I signal, due to delays, trains have been running under restrictive aspects due to the train in front being delayed; due to the timetable, it is sometimes the case that a semi-fast train can be delayed by a late all stations stopper in front of it. Often, the semi-fast will approach and stop at a signal at danger and hit SG (Waiting at signal) on the GSM-R; I hit the "WAIT" button and the driver is told to wait for the signal to clear. After around 30 seconds, the signal clears to a single yellow and the held train draws forward under caution, before stopping at the next signal (Again the signal is on) and the driver hits the SG again, leading me to hit the WAIT key.

This type of scenario frustrates me and my colleagues as signallers; if a driver encounters a signal at danger which clears after a short period and this happens again and again in each section, is it not obvious why the signal is on? In the areas I signal, I have seen via cab rides and local knowledge that, when standing at certain signals, it is possible to see the length of the section or conflicting move, so any reason for being held would be visible to a driver.

The Rule Book states that if a train is held for an obvious reason, the driver should wait for two minutes before contacting the box; I would argue that such scenarios are obvious, yet recently I have had drivers hit SG before their train has actuated the track circuit at the signal! Are new drivers being trained to question the danger aspect as soon as they observe it, regardless of the situation?

How do you know they're new drivers? Also why don't you just ring the driver that does this and explain your frustration to them? Personally I almost always ring them if I receive it and I explain to the driver why the signal is on which I assume is what they want to know. Oddly it must annoy them because some of them won't pick up! I think they know he's on again, blooming heck!

 

[Horizon22]

In theory perhaps…

Not really. Delay attribution is more complex than just "train held at signal, therefore that must be cause". There's lots of root cause analysis to try and track why that train is held at a signal - there's a train running late ahead, OK so why is that running late? Oh because of a conflict further down the line? So why was THAT train running late etc etc.

That's not to say attribution can't be down to a driver if slow to pull away and stop or a signaller slow to give a route with no other mitgating causes.

 

[bengley]

I press it if the reason for the delay is not obvious. Like an automatic signal in the middle of nowhere being on. If it's blindingly obvious that there's a slower train in front of me then I don't bother. It would annoy me as a signaller too.

 

[Spartacus]

In theory perhaps…

TDA won't know at that stage that you've pressed SG. Anything unexplained by the obvious (following another services, faults, trespass etc) would result in an enquiry with the signaller. If they say the train was on greens, with no contrary evident, it's get attributed to the train, then most TOCs would give a 'please explain' to the driver.

 

[dk1]

TDA won't know at that stage that you've pressed SG. Anything unexplained by the obvious (following another services, faults, trespass etc) would result in an enquiry with the signaller. If they say the train was on greens, with no contrary evident, it's get attributed to the train, then most TOCs would give a 'please explain' to the driver.

Get a few of those but easier now we've got a delay reporter app. Some drivers still prefer to write reasons on their diagrams & post through DMs door though.

 

[driverd]

It's an interesting discussion, as I too had heard the rumour that hitting SG avoids delay slips. I didn't think it'd be true but its nice to get confirmation.

I think the example given in the OPs post is ridiculous (on the drivers behalf), frankly. If, for whatever reason, he/she/they are trying to make a point by hammering the SG button, why not just pick up the phone and establish what's going on with the signaller?

In terms of waiting 2 mins or not, I personally wait until the signal check is at the point where its about to delay me (ie: around 30 seconds before the moment where I need to move to keep time). Equally, we've all been there where the signaller has just forgotten about us and where I suspect this is the case I'll just hit it straight away - I think, personally, it's just a judgement call that's made based on experience of driving the route. Some places you get a sixth sense, and miraculously, as you get your *bing bing* Wait, the signal clears to green.

 

[Horizon22]

It's an interesting discussion, as I too had heard the rumour that hitting SG avoids delay slips. I didn't think it'd be true but its nice to get confirmation.

I think the example given in the OPs post is ridiculous (on the drivers behalf), frankly. If, for whatever reason, he/she/they are trying to make a point by hammering the SG button, why not just pick up the phone and establish what's going on with the signaller?

In terms of waiting 2 mins or not, I personally wait until the signal check is at the point where its about to delay me (ie: around 30 seconds before the moment where I need to move to keep time). Equally, we've all been there where the signaller has just forgotten about us and where I suspect this is the case I'll just hit it straight away - I think, personally, it's just a judgement call that's made based on experience of driving the route. Some places you get a sixth sense, and miraculously, as you get your *bing bing* Wait, the signal clears to green.

I've had similar issues in stations and with control - the moment you start to phone the signaller after the staff said they are awaiting signal, it clears!

 

[coxxy]

I pretty much presd the SG as I put the DRA on.. unless it's a busy area.

It may seem petty and pointless, but that's what the rule book says, and that's what we get assessed against..

 

[driverd]

It may seem petty and pointless, but that's what the rule book says, and that's what we get assessed against..

I suppose this is another can of worms; TOCs (in particular ones operated by First) and very very prescriptive driving policies.

As a signaller, can you almost tell the TOC based on things done by the crew and in what manner?

 

[godfreycomplex]

As a signaller, can you almost tell the TOC based on things done by the crew and in what manner?

Quite regularly, yes (and by how depressed the driver sounds on the end of the GSM-R lol). It’s even fairly easy to have a guess at depots!!

I work at a major urban signalling centre so I hear the SG a lot. It doesn’t annoy me particularly and I’m usually happy to hop on the handset and let the driver know what’s happening where appropriate, but as with many other things I just think it’s sad for the drivers who, with some managers and companies, are subject to a horrendously strict competence regime which has no demonstrable safety benefit whatsoever, and their unions don’t do anything about.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Not really. Delay attribution is more complex than just "train held at signal, therefore that must be cause". There's lots of root cause analysis to try and track why that train is held at a signal - there's a train running late ahead, OK so why is that running late? Oh because of a conflict further down the line? So why was THAT train running late etc etc.

That's not to say attribution can't be down to a driver if slow to pull away and stop or a signaller slow to give a route with no other mitgating causes.

My point was that the delay attribution isn’t always correct and as simple as what the person I quoted suggested hence why drivers do get chased for delays when they’re not to blame. I’d say majority of times in my experience where drivers are chased for delays, they throw it right back at the signaller/signals.
An ‘SG’ is recorded so even though it may not be seen at primary level by the TDA, a log can be obtained if delays want to be disputed by the company hence why some managers will encourage pressing it straight away.

I suppose this is another can of worms; TOCs (in particular ones operated by First) and very very prescriptive driving policies.

As a signaller, can you almost tell the TOC based on things done by the crew and in what manner?

If you’re on the ball, you could even work out what depot the driver’s based at lol

 

[Krokodil]

I've had similar issues in stations and with control - the moment you start to phone the signaller after the staff said they are awaiting signal, it clears!

It was believed that some signals had track circuited ballast - as soon as your boot touched the ground on your way to the SPT, the signal would clear.

My point was that the delay attribution isn’t always correct and as simple as what the person I quoted suggested hence why drivers do get chased for delays when they’re not to blame. I’d say majority of times in my experience where drivers are chased for delays, they throw it right back at the signaller/signals.
An ‘SG’ is recorded so even though it may not be seen at primary level by the TDA, a log can be obtained if delays want to be disputed by the company hence why some managers will encourage pressing it straight away.

They can review FFCCTV if they want to see what signals the train actually saw. In ROC-controlled areas (and many panels) the first thing the attributor will have done is replayed the workstation's recording.

 

[Put Kettle On]

I must admit that I do sometimes send it before I'm fully at a stand, at signals where I know it's likely that I've simply been overlooked!

Why would anyone even consider doing such a thing, pressing the SG, which gives confirmation your train is STANDING at the signal, whilst not actually at a stand !!!

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[tiptoptaff]

How do you know they're new drivers? Also why don't you just ring the driver that does this and explain your frustration to them? Personally I almost always ring them if I receive it and I explain to the driver why the signal is on which I assume is what they want to know. Oddly it must annoy them because some of them won't pick up! I think they know he's on again, blooming heck!

I appreciate the call, but I had to admit my heart sinks if I press SG and get called back! Usually means the next words I'll hear are "Yeah what it is Drive...." and its never a simple delay.

I only press it when it's not obvious. Or at departure time at a station that doesn't have TRTS. I know the locations where I shouldn't be held in a perfect world, but if I am I know what I'm waiting for, so don't bother unless that delay starts to get to be more than I'd usually expect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2023 ==

Why would anyone even consider doing such a thing, pressing the SG, which gives confirmation your train is STANDING at the signal, whilst not actually at a stand !!!

What could possibly go wrong?

I do it too, and sometimes it clears R to G and I don't have to stop.

But like Tomnick, that's only in areas I know we could have been forgotten- quite common to get a red at a panel change, for example!

 

[Tomnick]

Why would anyone even consider doing such a thing, pressing the SG, which gives confirmation your train is STANDING at the signal, whilst not actually at a stand

I'm only talking seconds, rather than creeping up the last few yards to the signal and then doing it. If the signaller is waiting for confirmation that I'm at a stand before ringing me, and then does ring me as a result, I'd have no problem with quickly and safely bringing it to an actual stand and securing the train in a couple of seconds before answering it. Otherwise, if they have forgotten me, it's a few seconds' extra delay avoided.

 

[175001]

I press SG immediately at signals I know that you don't usually get held at.

Automatic signals is one, you know something is up when they are on red.

Route knowledge and timetable knowledge means at signals that are at key junctions or stations or tunnels, I'll wait at least 2 mins before thinking of pressing it.

I don't like to annoy you all in the boxes