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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

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Steveswan10

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A question out of curiosity, O appreciate that these carriages are getting on to be 30 plus years old, but are LNER suffering with as many faults with the MK4 they have left working? Just curious as to why there are so many faults/issues since they've been with TFW (No criticism of the maintenance staff intended)
 
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SuperLuke2334

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A question out of curiosity, O appreciate that these carriages are getting on to be 30 plus years old, but are LNER suffering with as many faults with the MK4 they have left working? Just curious as to why there are so many faults/issues since they've been with TFW (No criticism of the maintenance staff intended)
Presumably some of the issues are to do with working with 67s rather than 91s, and having SDO fitted, neither of which they were originally designed for. Also the fact that the ex-GC sets were sat in store for the best part of 2 years when GC fell through on Euston to Blackpool, and therefore their mechanics have worsened.
 

craigybagel

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Presumably some of the issues are to do with working with 67s rather than 91s, and having SDO fitted, neither of which they were originally designed for. Also the fact that the ex-GC sets were sat in store for the best part of 2 years when GC fell through on Euston to Blackpool, and therefore their mechanics have worsened.
Indeed, the ex GC sets have definitely been more troublesome.

There's also the learning curve, both for maintenance staff and traincrew. The MKIVs have been on the ECML for 30 years - that's a lot of passed on knowledge to catch up with.

One aspect of the MKIVs that is improving is timekeeping. As crews get more familiar with SDO and the new stopping positions they have shown that with no other issues getting in the way, they are capable of keeping to the timetable - something that seemed questionable in the first week of Manchester services.
 

Envoy

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Yet another day with plenty of 2 car 150’s and 153’s doing the long trips up and down The Marches. Now mid February and still trouble with the loco hauled stock and no sign of 197’s arriving on this route any time soon. Surely, with some 197’s now operating in the north, more 175’s should be available? (Yes, I am aware that one has been damaged by fire).
 

GWVillager

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Yet another day with plenty of 2 car 150’s and 153’s doing the long trips up and down The Marches. Now mid February and still trouble with the loco hauled stock and no sign of 197’s arriving on this route any time soon. Surely, with some 197’s now operating in the north, more 175’s should be available? (Yes, I am aware that one has been damaged by fire).
Considering how many diagrams that were formerly 175s have been transferred over to Mk4s, presumably creating a surplus, I'd say the issue probably isn't in 175 availability. Not sure what is keeping them from standing in for Mk4s though.
 

sd0733

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Considering how many diagrams that were formerly 175s have been transferred over to Mk4s, presumably creating a surplus, I'd say the issue probably isn't in 175 availability. Not sure what is keeping them from standing in for Mk4s though.
There's only 3 Monday-Friday and 2 Saturday diagrams (from today) which are currently Mk4s, 2 of the Monday-Friday diagrams were Mk4 anyway and with the split at Cardiff using 1 extra diagram, effectively Mk4s aren't currently freeing up a single unit compared to pre-December.
 

martinsh

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A couple of Saturday Mk4 diagrams starting today which should be permanent:

Diagram 1
04:54 Crewe-Cardiff
08:49 Cardiff-Manchester
12:30 Manchester-Cardiff
16:50 Cardiff-Manchester
20:25 Ecs to ATC Crewe

Diagram 2
04:35 Cardiff-Manchester
08:30 Manchester-Cardiff
12:52 Cardiff-Manchester
16:30 Manchester-Swansea
21:28 Ecs to Canton

Oops.
The return 0830 Manchester-Cardiff (1V37) was cancelled at Crewe "due to a problem with the brakes".
But the 1630 Manchester - Cardiff was a MK 4 set - 67020. However, I believe this set was on the sidings in Crewe at around 1pm (that set had gone by 1700). Advertised as the "1710 to Swansea" at Crewe BTW
 

sd0733

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But the 1630 Manchester - Cardiff was a MK 4 set - 67020. However, I believe this set was on the sidings in Crewe at around 1pm (that set had gone by 1700). Advertised as the "1710 to Swansea" at Crewe BTW
HD05 had an issue with dragging brakes. Was replaced by HD06 off the shed at Crewe on 1W59
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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But the 1630 Manchester - Cardiff was a MK 4 set - 67020. However, I believe this set was on the sidings in Crewe at around 1pm (that set had gone by 1700). Advertised as the "1710 to Swansea" at Crewe BTW
From RTT, 1V37 was cancelled at Crewe, but the next northbound run was reinstated at Crewe with a different set (but was then turned at Wilmslow running 34 late).
So Crewe-Cardiff-Crewe and Wilmslow-Manchester-Wilmslow legs were cancelled out of diagram 2.
 
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sd0733

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Anyone got An update on 67025? And did I see right 67029 is now with HD01?
Not heard anything about 025, would be with DB for repairs.

Yes that's right.
In Service rakes this week are:
HD01+67029
HD02+67017
HD05+67013 (spare)
HD06+67015
 

JakeMurphy

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S
Not heard anything about 025, would be with DB for repairs.

Yes that's right.
In Service rakes this week are:
HD01+67029
HD02+67017
HD05+67013 (spare)
HD06+67015
Seems as if HD01’s failed at Llandudno Junction
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It should do, but I’m on 1W96 and I don’t fancy a unit back tonight
RTT says 1V96 cancelled Holyhead-Llandudno Jn (LLJ), but no live times shown from there.
I suppose the next tactic might be to activate the spare set at Crewe and position it to Chester to pick up the diagram on to Cardiff.

Edit:
Ah, now we have live times, 1V96 is running 34m late from LLJ.
 
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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Presumably some of the issues are to do with working with 67s rather than 91s, and having SDO fitted, neither of which they were originally designed for. Also the fact that the ex-GC sets were sat in store for the best part of 2 years when GC fell through on Euston to Blackpool, and therefore their mechanics have worsened.

Indeed, the ex GC sets have definitely been more troublesome.

There's also the learning curve, both for maintenance staff and traincrew. The MKIVs have been on the ECML for 30 years - that's a lot of passed on knowledge to catch up with.

One aspect of the MKIVs that is improving is timekeeping. As crews get more familiar with SDO and the new stopping positions they have shown that with no other issues getting in the way, they are capable of keeping to the timetable - something that seemed questionable in the first week of Manchester services.

Is it the 67s or is the problem specific to the former GC stored sets?

The 67s seemed to work fine on the East Coast diversions between Newcastle and Carlisle when the 91+Mk IVs were dragged.
 

craigybagel

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Is it the 67s or is the problem specific to the former GC stored sets?

The 67s seemed to work fine on the East Coast diversions between Newcastle and Carlisle when the 91+Mk IVs were dragged.
It was a much simpler set up with the drags, those 67s didn't have any modifications and worked with the MKIVs as though they were any other kind of thing to pull.

The TfW set up is much more complicated, with push-pull working, door interlock, loco to train communications and various other goodies added on.

Also, a nonstop run from Carlisle to Newcastle at 65mph is probably less intense than the kind of work they're doing now at TfW, even if the loads hauled were heavier.
 

RichardTBC

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It's probably in a post further up, but does anyone have a list of the set formations? HD01 doesn't seem to have any numbers on one side! Thanks for any help [sorry if it's in wrong thread]
 

sd0733

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Many thanks for this. Assuming it's back on the Holyheads I'm going to take it for a spin. Perhaps I can figure out where the numbers on it are!
There actually aren't any on one side. Someone got a bit carried away with removing branding when they first came over!
 

RichardTBC

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There actually aren't any on one side. Someone got a bit carried away with removing branding when they first came over!
So that would explain my frustrations in not finding anything bar the DVT number when it was heading through Prestatyn. Perhaps they'll add them back when it gets a lick of paint.....
 

sd0733

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So that would explain my frustrations in not finding anything bar the DVT number when it was heading through Prestatyn. Perhaps they'll add them back when it gets a lick of paint.....
Yes it's not you!! The TOD which has been added later still has numbers and like you say the DVT but that's about it.
 

Leeds1970

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why bother having the loco hauled sets?
I personally really don't see the point in having a loco and stock capable of 125 mph (yes i know the line speeds are a lot less) with first class and dining option that stops pretty much at every market town and wayside halt between Holyhead or Manchester and Cardiff. For instance on the Manchester Run let them stretch their legs and be a proper intercity - starting Manchester then Stockport Crewe Shrewsbury Hereford Abergavenny Newport then Cardiff
is it really necessary to stop at such places as Church Stretton do they generate viable passenger numbers?
 

Armchair Bob

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HD01 12225 12454 10325 11323 + 82226
I've been trying to follow the set formations. As far as l know, all the TSOs have been temporarily removed whilst they run as 4+DVT. So they are now made up as: TSOE-TSOD-RSB-FOD-DVT. When they become 5+DVT eventually, the TSOs will be re-inserted between the TSOE and the TSOD, but not necessarily the same ones that came out of each set. My table has the sets arranged as below:
HD01. 12225 12315 10325 11323 82226
HD02. 12219 12304 10328 11324 82229
HD03. 12217 12324 10312 11325 82216
HD04. 12211 12310 10318 11319 82201
HD05. 12224 12326 10321 11320 82200
HD06. 12222 12323 10330 11321 82227
HD07. 12210 12316 10301 11322 82230
HD08. 12215 12308 10305 11316 82220

Spare DVT 82204

Donor vehicles TSOE 12229, RSB 10307, DVT 82206

This may not be 100%, as vehicles could be swapped over of course.

TSOs 12434 12452 12461 12477 (exGC ones) 12446 12447 12454 12526 (exLNER ones)
 

craigybagel

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why bother having the loco hauled sets?
I personally really don't see the point in having a loco and stock capable of 125 mph (yes i know the line speeds are a lot less) with first class and dining option that stops pretty much at every market town and wayside halt between Holyhead or Manchester and Cardiff. For instance on the Manchester Run let them stretch their legs and be a proper intercity - starting Manchester then Stockport Crewe Shrewsbury Hereford Abergavenny Newport then Cardiff
is it really necessary to stop at such places as Church Stretton do they generate viable passenger numbers?
The timetable is still transitioning, when the full 2tph service between Shrewsbury and Cardiff is running it should be possible to drop some of the quieter stops.
 

Falcon1200

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why bother having the loco hauled sets?

Because they provide a far superior level of service between two major UK cities, Cardiff and Manchester, plus other decent size places in between, eg Newport and Shrewsbury. And every time I have observed the trains on the route, usually at Crewe, they are very busy and therefore need greater capacity. Also, not necessarily what TfW intend perhaps, but they provide an example of how good interregional travel (as opposed to to or from London) in the UK could be!

BTW is there any other route with a greater contrast in the stock operating it just now? Depending which train you catch, it could be a Mark 4 set with First Class and catering, a 2-car 150, or a pair of 153s!

is it really necessary to stop at such places as Church Stretton do they generate viable passenger numbers?

Yes, because there is no other service, until as @craigybagel says the TT is improved.
 

Fuzzytop

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They are now made up as: TSOE-TSOD-RSB-FOD-DVT. When they become 5+DVT eventually, the TSOs will be re-inserted between the TSOE and the TSOD.
I have heard that actually the TSOs will go between the FOD and DVT as: 67 - TSOE - TSOD - RSB - FOD - TSO - DVT. Reason given was that it puts the accessible areas towards the centre of the formation and therefore more likely to be platformed. I don't know if that has been reconsidered, surely it will be a quieter atmosphere in First Class if it's at one end rather than a through-fare.

Additionally during SDO mods, the FOD is being turned so the WC is now at the loco end rather than the DVT end. I suspect the TSO would be as well if it goes next to the DVT.
 
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