Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[JakeMurphy]

Today, from Manchester to South Wales:

0630 is a MK4

0730 Man Picc Carmarthen
153968+153303

0830 Man Picc Cardiff Ctrl
153910+153382

0930 Man Picc Carmarthen
150262

1030 Man Picc Cardiff Ctrl
153318+153972

1130 is a 175

1230 Man Picc Cardiff Ctrl
150281

1330 Man Picc Tenby
150237

1430 is a MK4

1530 Man Picc Carmarthen
158821

1630 Man Picc Swansea
150227

1730 Man Picc Swansea
158818

1930 Man Picc Cardiff Ctrl
158838

What a disgrace

Well I’m not sure if you’ve took into account the 175’s have been temporarily withdrawn so only 5 are out today..

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well I’m not sure if you’ve took into account the 175’s have been temporarily withdrawn so only 5 are out today..

I don’t think you get what I’m saying.
I’m not saying it could have been helped. I’m just saying it’s a disgrace that its come to this that’s all. If you don’t think 9 out of 12 long-distance services entirely booked for 175/MK4 being Sprinters is appalling I’m surprised.

5 out of 27 We had all of this with Hull’s Adelantes too, kept setting alight.

 

[Richard Scott]

5 out of 27 We had all of this with Hull’s Adelantes too, kept setting alight.

Wouldn't be surprised if maintenance (or lack of) is a contributing factor. In their latter years class 85s were prone to self combustion.

 

[Bikeman78]

I did like 150s until some less than pleasant journeys on 150s in recent times, and they're just not that nice compared to 158s, 175s and the MK4s.

@SuperLuke2334 Thanks, I was going to do it but when I rocked up around half 11 it was running late, I was cold and decided the better idea was to go back to base and get a load of housework done!

That's fair enough, although they were never intended to cover 900 mile diagrams. That they do so without fuss deserves some credit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Today, from Manchester to South Wales:
What a disgrace

At least there weren't any cancellations - that's something to TfW's credit.
TfW came 15th out of 20 TOCs in the ORR league table of cancellations for Q4 2022 (5.2%) but did at least improve on the same period in 2021.
I wouldn't expect any improvements for Q1 2023.

 

[midland1]

Are not the 0630 and the 1430 the current diagrams anyway?

 

[Techniquest]

That's fair enough, although they were never intended to cover 900 mile diagrams. That they do so without fuss deserves some credit.

Perhaps. That is a fair point.

I endured 150208 Hereford to Crewe yesterday, so I was determined not to do such a thing again today. I did the 1130 from Manchester, joining at Crewe, and I can confirm it was a 175. 175112 and coach C appeared to have a poorly engine. If it came back to life, I've no idea because I got bored of the people behind me talking about some nonsense, so popped in my earphones for pretty much the entire journey.

Still to have a 67 north of Shrewsbury, and lately service feels as good as Central Trains did. Will the service make it all the way, will it break down? Will all seem well then suddenly booted off and made to wait for the next train? Will the train be running then, 15 minutes later after booking tickets and heading to the station, find that it's actually not running?

I will give TfW credit, services were running which was a good thing, but I'm just so fed up of the inadequate rolling stock, the unreliability in general, it's just not what one expects from the operator. Obviously, I appreciate things go wrong, and that new trains are coming, but when West Midlands Railway outperform TfW in my expectations then it has gone rather wrong. To have a more positive opinion on Central Trains, well that's just insane.

Fingers crossed it all improves and fast. Those 197s need to hurry up and get here, patience is very thin!

 

[daodao]

If you don’t think 9 out of 12 long-distance services entirely booked for 175/MK4 being Sprinters is appalling I’m surprised.

It is only the class 150 units that are really unsuitable. The Class 155 Super Sprinters (now split into single coach class 153 railcars) were introduced on the North and West route in 1987-8 and were a welcome improvement on the previous loco-hauled coaches. They were later superseded by the class 158 dmus, which were a further improvement. I am surprised that TfW are reverting, somewhat unsuccessfully so far due to reliability issues, to re-introducing clapped out loco-hauled coaching stock on this route.

 

[LowLevel]

It is only the class 150 units that are really unsuitable. The Class 155 Super Sprinters (now split into single coach class 153 railcars) were introduced on the North and West route in 1987-8 and were a welcome improvement on the previous loco-hauled coaches. They were later superseded by the class 158 dmus, which were a further improvement. I am surprised that TfW are reverting, somewhat unsuccessfully so far due to reliability issues, to re-introducing clapped out loco-hauled coaching stock on this route.

The class 155 (and 153 as first converted) had, if I recall, far more generous leg room than any 153 now where the seats are squeezed in very tightly.

They're not great for long journeys. The only seats my legs fit into without having to man spread across a pair to myself are the "wide tables".

The saloon noise levels are also dire.

I love 153s but they're not a 200 plus mile Intercity unit.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thank god it's winter over there, is what I'll say. Sprinters are NOT fun in summer, and that includes air-conditioned 158s which (certainly SWR's 159s anyway) always seem to have air con failures.

 

[Falcon1200]

At least there weren't any cancellations - that's something to TfW's credit.

And at least there were no single 153s either.....

I am surprised that TfW are reverting, somewhat unsuccessfully so far due to reliability issues, to re-introducing clapped out loco-hauled coaching stock on this route.

Having been lucky enough, a couple of weeks ago, to travel twice (twice!) on a TfW loco-hauled service, the coaches are very far from clapped out, in fact the greatly improved ambience compared to any DMU type is remarkable.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The class 155 (and 153 as first converted) had, if I recall, far more generous leg room than any 153 now where the seats are squeezed in very tightly.

They're not great for long journeys. The only seats my legs fit into without having to man spread across a pair to myself are the "wide tables".

I cannot remember ever sitting in an airline-style seat on a 142, 143, 150 or 153 where I could actually fit my legs in. All unsuitable for journeys over an hour for that reason in my opinion - the 158s (the 24 'Welsh' units anyway) were also awful in airline-style (the thinner, but sadly harder, seats fitted at the ATW refurb helped a bit) but at least they have a decent number of tables to avoid the knee-crushing airline seats. Interesting to read the 153s might not have been that bad originally - do the few remaining 155s (which I don't think I've ever been on) still have their original interiors by any chance, or has Northern changed them?

Thank god it's winter over there, is what I'll say. Sprinters are NOT fun in summer, and that includes air-conditioned 158s which (certainly SWR's 159s anyway) always seem to have air con failures.

You mention the 159s - I thought that SWT had replaced the aircon on their 158s/159s with something more reliable - to the extent that they actually sealed/removed some/all of the hopper windows? The 24 'Welsh' 158s certainly had aircon trouble though, at least in Arriva Trains Wales days.

Having been lucky enough, a couple of weeks ago, to travel twice (twice!) on a TfW loco-hauled service, the coaches are very far from clapped out, in fact the greatly improved ambience compared to any DMU type is remarkable.

I've not managed a journey on a TfW mark 4 yet but last year I did do Leeds to Kings Cross on an IC225 with LNER and I would agree that 'clapped out' is not a good description of the interiors at least. The ambience of the mark 3b coaches (as refurbished by ATW with the same seats as the 158s) was also a vast improvement over anything else in ATW's fleet at the time (although the 175s were probably still the only things that had sufficient legroom in airline seats). Howver, the mark 3s were pre-COVID. Lockdown and face mask rules (I can't stand wearing one for long) meant over a year of soft, comfy, sofas and no use of public transport. After that, even the seats that ATW fitted on the mark 3s and 'Welsh' 158s (the best of the modern train seats in my opinion) are a bit too hard - as for anything from Fainsa...

 

[LowLevel]

I cannot remember ever sitting in an airline-style seat on a 142, 143, 150 or 153 where I could actually fit my legs in. All unsuitable for journeys over an hour for that reason in my opinion - the 158s (the 24 'Welsh' units anyway) were also awful in airline-style (the thinner, but sadly harder, seats fitted at the ATW refurb helped a bit) but at least they have a decent number of tables to avoid the knee-crushing airline seats. Interesting to read the 153s might not have been that bad originally - do the few remaining 155s (which I don't think I've ever been on) still have their original interiors by any chance, or has Northern changed them?


You mention the 159s - I thought that SWT had replaced the aircon on their 158s/159s with something more reliable - to the extent that they actually sealed/removed some/all of the hopper windows? The 24 'Welsh' 158s certainly had aircon trouble though, at least in Arriva Trains Wales days.


I've not managed a journey on a TfW mark 4 yet but last year I did do Leeds to Kings Cross on an IC225 with LNER and I would agree that 'clapped out' is not a good description of the interiors at least. The ambience of the mark 3b coaches (as refurbished by ATW with the same seats as the 158s) was also a vast improvement over anything else in ATW's fleet at the time (although the 175s were probably still the only things that had sufficient legroom in airline seats). Howver, the mark 3s were pre-COVID. Lockdown and face mask rules (I can't stand wearing one for long) meant over a year of soft, comfy, sofas and no use of public transport. After that, even the seats that ATW fitted on the mark 3s and 'Welsh' 158s (the best of the modern train seats in my opinion) are a bit too hard - as for anything from Fainsa...

The Northern 155s have 153 style high density interiors with Chapman seats.

The last units to be fitted with the original style interior were the Scottish 156s but they were done several years back.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I cannot remember ever sitting in an airline-style seat on a 142, 143, 150 or 153 where I could actually fit my legs in. All unsuitable for journeys over an hour for that reason in my opinion - the 158s (the 24 'Welsh' units anyway) were also awful in airline-style (the thinner, but sadly harder, seats fitted at the ATW refurb helped a bit) but at least they have a decent number of tables to avoid the knee-crushing airline seats. Interesting to read the 153s might not have been that bad originally - do the few remaining 155s (which I don't think I've ever been on) still have their original interiors by any chance, or has Northern changed them?


You mention the 159s - I thought that SWT had replaced the aircon on their 158s/159s with something more reliable - to the extent that they actually sealed/removed some/all of the hopper windows? The 24 'Welsh' 158s certainly had aircon trouble though, at least in Arriva Trains Wales days.


I've not managed a journey on a TfW mark 4 yet but last year I did do Leeds to Kings Cross on an IC225 with LNER and I would agree that 'clapped out' is not a good description of the interiors at least. The ambience of the mark 3b coaches (as refurbished by ATW with the same seats as the 158s) was also a vast improvement over anything else in ATW's fleet at the time (although the 175s were probably still the only things that had sufficient legroom in airline seats). Howver, the mark 3s were pre-COVID. Lockdown and face mask rules (I can't stand wearing one for long) meant over a year of soft, comfy, sofas and no use of public transport. After that, even the seats that ATW fitted on the mark 3s and 'Welsh' 158s (the best of the modern train seats in my opinion) are a bit too hard - as for anything from Fainsa...

Not worthy of its own thread: when was the final day of the MK3 on Manchester to Wales?

 

[GWVillager]

Not worthy of its own thread: when was the final day of the MK3 on Manchester to Wales?

As far as I know Mk3s never did Manchester to South Wales.

 

[Sheridan]

As far as I know Mk3s never did Manchester to South Wales.

They did do Manchester to north Wales though.

 

[xotGD]

The Class 155 Super Sprinters (now split into single coach class 153 railcars) were introduced on the North and West route in 1987-8 and were a welcome improvement on the previous loco-hauled coaches.

I hardly think so!

 

[midland1]

It is only the class 150 units that are really unsuitable. The Class 155 Super Sprinters (now split into single coach class 153 railcars) were introduced on the North and West route in 1987-8 and were a welcome improvement on the previous loco-hauled coaches. They were later superseded by the class 158 dmus, which were a further improvement. I am surprised that TfW are reverting, somewhat unsuccessfully so far due to reliability issues, to re-introducing clapped out loco-hauled coaching stock on this route.

Are the Mk4 coaches not as old as some of the dmus?

 

[GWVillager]

They did do Manchester to north Wales though.

Oh yes, though I am not sure of their last operations

 

[GM078]

I got the 11:30(?) ex Cardiff from Chester to Holyhead on Monday (67017 for those wondering), have to say I was very impressed with the comfort standard of the mk4s. Didn't strike me as clapped out at all.

 

[MK Tom]

Are the Mk4 coaches not as old as some of the dmus?

They're concurrent with the 158s and younger than the 150s and 153s (from their construction as 155s). The locos pulling them are younger still.

 

[daodao]

I hardly think so!

I used the Manchester-Cardiff train service on a regular basis for 21 years from 1984-2005 when I lived in South Wales. IMO, there was an improvement in speed and comfort when the service was switched from loco-hauled Mk1 carriages to the class 155 Supersprinters, and again with the change to class 158 dmus.

 

[Express380]

Does anyone know how likely the 12:30 Manchester - Cardiff on weekday is to show up as a Mk4 set looking at the past week it's been a Unit but not sure if that is likely to change?

 

[sd0733]

Does anyone know how likely the 12:30 Manchester - Cardiff on weekday is to show up as a Mk4 set looking at the past week it's been a Unit but not sure if that is likely to change?

Pretty much zero. It's booked a class 150

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Pretty much zero. It's booked a class 150

At least a benefit to it being booked that way is we know to avoid it, rather than it being booked for a 175 they can't get out, therefore yielding an unexpected disappointment!

 

[Express380]

Pretty much zero. It's booked a class 150

Thats great news for me being a fan of 150s thanks for that was hoping it wouldn't be MK4!

 

[Falcon1200]

Does anyone know how likely the 12:30 Manchester - Cardiff on weekday is to show up as a Mk4 set

Pretty much zero. It's booked a class 150

It was a Mk4 set when I travelled on it on Monday 13th February; Presumably the diagram has changed since then?

 

[route101]

Is the loco on the Cardiff to Manchester/Holyhead at the North or South end of the train?

 

[Falcon1200]

Is the loco on the Cardiff to Manchester/Holyhead at the North or South end of the train?

North end on the one I have seen (and travelled on) so far.

 

[craigybagel]

It was a Mk4 set when I travelled on it on Monday 13th February; Presumably the diagram has changed since then?

It has been on occasion but it is booked as a 150 this week.

Is the loco on the Cardiff to Manchester/Holyhead at the North or South end of the train?

It's meant to be at the North end but the sets get turned frequently so they often run the other way. To be kept the same way requires both the night time Manchester - Crewe and following morning Crewe - Manchester ECS runs to go the same route (either both via Wilmslow or both via Warrington). If the same set uses different routes on it's two trips each night, it gets turned.