Harper confirms GBR to go ahead

[Fazaar1889]

Theres not a huge amount of detail in there, or dates or deadlines? I suggest that with an election next year, it will all change again anyway.

There's an election next year? I thought it wasn't until 2025!

 

[david1212]

... Ask people why they don't use the railway., and the number one reason you'll hear is "it's too expensive".

Or/and the ticketing system so darned complicated they can't find...or even know how to find...the cheapest fare?

Has anything be said about a full fares review ?

IMO a new base is needed before adjusting singles and introducing demand based fares with the potential result that at least at weekends no longer will walk-on off-peak or super off-peak ( depending on the operator e.g. West Midlands = off-peak, some Chiltern = super off-peak ) tickets be valid on every train.

While there will always be fare anomalies they should be small so split ticketing is not worth the effort.

 

[thedbdiboy]

How can I do that exactly? How am I supposed to know which ticket is valid on which train? This makes me so angry. Time to look into getting a driving licence and just give up on the railway.

Erm, you choose when you want to go, look at the price and buy the ticket. That's how it's supposed to work.

 

[Skymonster]

Ask people why they don't use the railway., and the number one reason you'll hear is "it's too expensive".

Maybe. I too think anytime returns on many intercity / long distance flows are too expensive, but I’m not naive enough to believe that these are the only fares available and I still use the railway because I know there are usually much better deals available.

The real price killer for me and many other users of the railway, indeed any form of public transport, is that two people traveling together costs twice as much (railcard notwithstanding) where as two travelling in a car is half the cost each if it’s shared. No fare reform will ever solve that problem.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There's an election next year? I thought it wasn't until 2025!

Sunak has to have a GE no later than 24th Jan but parliament will be suspended by Dec 24 if he leaves this late which is unlikely given time of year. So at best it might be in next Kings speech in Sept 23 given less than a year to get legislation through although given their majority they can easily force stuff through and it probably wont be that controversial with the Lords either so still a window to "Get GBR Done"

 

[185]

omgz new stuff! ....tickets will be quota priced based on demand, wow!!!!

Doh. The Simpsons already did it. Advance tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti have already done this, sadly.

Not the same one. Avanti's were extra, super low fares with swingeing restrictions to compete with LNR. LNER's are the old Saver, their Off Peak was the Business Saver, which the WCML never had.

With LNER it is likely the old Business Saver will go, because it approximates to the combination of an Anytime and a Super Off Peak Single.

 

[Facing Back]

Ask people why they don't use the railway., and the number one reason you'll hear is "it's too expensive".

For many I'm sure. The people I ask, the number one reason is reliability - these are people travelling alone for business. A cheap evening ticket and a London hotel can cost less and means you're there on time and not quite so frazzled. Of course Avanti's loss is Hilton's gain.

A family of four? Book a month in advance and have a railcard and still be prepared to wince.

 

[jon0844]

I think the most worrying part of the speech is the comment 'It isn't fair to continue asking taxpayers to foot the bill. Most of them don't regularly use them (trains), including plenty of my constituents in the Forest of Dean.' Sounds like a shift to road building again - hopefully this govmt will be removed from office next year.

With the Government seemingly using old data to justify cuts based on lower passenger numbers (despite many services in the peak nearly back to normal, and off-peak leisure travel way up - likely because people working from home are more likely going to want to go out when they can), it does feel like this Government is attempting to repeat Beeching style cuts - this time using Covid as the perfect excuse.

And, even some people on this forum are supporting cuts to the industry so it shouldn't be too hard a sell to people who don't use trains much, and would far rather the money spent elsewhere (or perhaps not spent at all, and simply coming up with tax cuts instead).

 

[MCSHF007]

people working from home are more likely going to want to go out when they can

And (because the'ye lost any vague semblence of apprecaiation/understanding of how to behave in public) we get the scounging chavvy **ewipes who can never behave. Ever.

These are the people we need to drive off the railway (sadly absolutely no chance of success due to the paucity of revenue checks).

 

[Facing Back]

And (because the'ye lost any vague semblence of apprecaiation/understanding of how to behave in public) we get the scounging chavvy **ewipes who can never behave. Ever.

These are the people we need to drive off the railway (with abolsutely no chance of success due to the paucity of revenue checks.

I think you may have missed an *. I'm not quite sure what relevance this has to the current topic.

 

[L401CJF]

Return journeys being what 99% of people make…..

99% of tickets I check onboard daily are Advance singles booked through a mobile app. A lot of these are return journeys, however with separate advance single tickets for out and return.

If the new method is to scrap returns and sell singles for each direction instead, this seems to be what most people do anyway these days on their phones (as it often works out cheaper).

 

[Facing Back]

With the Government seemingly using old data to justify cuts based on lower passenger numbers (despite many services in the peak nearly back to normal, and off-peak leisure travel way up - likely because people working from home are more likely going to want to go out when they can), it does feel like this Government is attempting to repeat Beeching style cuts - this time using Covid as the perfect excuse.

And, even some people on this forum are supporting cuts to the industry so it shouldn't be too hard a sell to people who don't use trains much, and would far rather the money spent elsewhere (or perhaps not spent at all, and simply coming up with tax cuts instead).

Could you provide some more detail and perhaps references to "many services in the peak nearly back to normal" please? I'm interested in this. My understanding from reading here and elsewhere was that most services in the peak were not back to normal.

Off peak leisure travel is agreed to be way up - which is great news. It might be that the total number of passenger journeys being made is close to pre-covid levels but there seems to be fair consensus that revenue is well down (I keep hearing £2 billion) which I assume is down to the expensive peak hour traffic being lower.

What "cuts to the industry" are being supported? Fewer trains? Shorter trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

99% of tickets I check onboard daily are Advance singles booked through a mobile app. A lot of these are return journeys, however with separate advance single tickets for out and return.

If the new method is to scrap returns and sell singles for each direction instead, this seems to be what most people do anyway these days on their phones (as it often works out cheaper).

99%? Bloody hell - no wonder they are looking at doing away with returns

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

99% of tickets I check onboard daily are Advance singles booked through a mobile app. A lot of these are return journeys, however with separate advance single tickets for out and return.

If the new method is to scrap returns and sell singles for each direction instead, this seems to be what most people do anyway these days on their phones (as it often works out cheaper).

Avanti premier might be the exception. I objected to the fair hike in first and being crammed into coach K so bought off peak returns and upgraded - as I was travelling on late night trains. The £1 uplift from single to return and the flexible return worked for me as I didn't need reservations - and about 80% of the time nobody checked my ticket and charged me the upgrade.

I recognise that is an anomaly.

 

[aavm]

Sounds like Advance ticket prices will vary like airline ones do. Not a fan. The great thing about trains is the ease. Couldn't there be just peak, shoulder, off peak singles

 

[yorkie]

For discussion regarding single leg pricing please use the following thread:

End of the line for return rail tickets

Story in the Telegraph today, not yet available online but it has made the front page (amongst the lettuce and the balloon): RETURN tickets are to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long awaited reforms of railways, Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will announce plans...

www.railforums.co.uk

For any speculation regarding what may or may not happen regarding GBR please use the Speculative Discussion section (use an an existing thread, if there is one, or create a new one)

 

[thelongestroad]

Isn't this just going to bring in yet another management layer sat around posting on Yammer all day?

 

[D365]

Isn't this just going to bring in yet another management layer sat around posting on Yammer all day?

According to my LinkedIn feed, they're already working on it!

 

[The exile]

I think the most worrying part of the speech is the comment 'It isn't fair to continue asking taxpayers to foot the bill. Most of them don't regularly use them (trains), including plenty of my constituents in the Forest of Dean.' Sounds like a shift to road building again - hopefully this govmt will be removed from office next year.

Those constituents will be the first to insist that their long rural access road which only serves three houses is repaired at the taxpayers’ expense when it subsides down the hill….

 

[stuu]

I absolutely do not understand some of the comments on here. Advance tickets already vary fairly dramatically across the day. The cheapest priced are at the least popular times as it stands - the cheapest ticket from my house to London next Wednesday is on the 2117. The most expensive is on the 717. It's been like that for 20 years.

 

[The exile]

I absolutely do not understand some of the comments on here. Advance tickets already vary fairly dramatically across the day. The cheapest priced are at the least popular times as it stands - the cheapest ticket from my house to London next Wednesday is on the 2117. The most expensive is on the 717. It's been like that for 20 years.

For me the issue is that advance tickets are fine for the kind of long distance journeys that you plan long in advance. If the only option that gives you flexibility is to pay the “anytime” fare that is a massive disincentive to use rail for shorter, more spontaneous journeys. Adjusting plans to avoid a fixed “peak period” is one thing (ie it doesn’t matter exactly when the event finishes or if my bus is on time because the fare will still be the same -it’s all off-peak) - having to fix to a certain train or pay a punishingly expensive anytime fare on a short to medium distance journey with a frequent service is another.

 

[Worldwide]

Avanti have already done this, sadly.

Avanti are starting to offer a new service where you can buy a single for £20 from Manchester to London but you won’t know what train you’re on until the day before.

 

[stuu]

For me the issue is that advance tickets are fine for the kind of long distance journeys that you plan long in advance. If the only option that gives you flexibility is to pay the “anytime” fare that is a massive disincentive to use rail for shorter, more spontaneous journeys. Adjusting plans to avoid a fixed “peak period” is one thing (ie it doesn’t matter exactly when the event finishes or if my bus is on time because the fare will still be the same -it’s all off-peak) - having to fix to a certain train or pay a punishingly expensive anytime fare on a short to medium distance journey with a frequent service is another.

No one has suggested it be the same for local fares, in fact they have repeatedly talked about rolling out contactless as a solution for urban areas. It would be utterly stupid to roll that out without people having absolute certainty about how much the fare is going to be, so I would hope that they aren't that stupid

 

[fandroid]

Excellent news, GBR has the potential to be a fantastic engine for cost-savings, efficiencies, improved service delivery and value for money.

The key word there is "potential". Never underestimate the potential for political dogma to totally foul up common sense

 

[RGM654]

How many countries expect their passenger rail services to operate without some form of subsidy from taxes (either for those services specifically or for infratructure)?

 

[ashkeba]

Those constituents will be the first to insist that their long rural access road which only serves three houses is repaired at the taxpayers’ expense when it subsides down the hill….

More generally, East Cambridgeshire doesn't have any motorways. I think Suffolk and Norfolk don't either. Why do we pay the same to National Highways as elsewhere? Their main activity in the news here seems to be trashing old bridges and blocking paths.

This looks a very slippery slope for a national transport minister to step onto.

 

[The exile]

No one has suggested it be the same for local fares, in fact they have repeatedly talked about rolling out contactless as a solution for urban areas. It would be utterly stupid to roll that out without people having absolute certainty about how much the fare is going to be, so I would hope that they aren't that stupid

So where is the (arbitrary) line drawn between local and long-distance? Or is it between types of service (in which case pity the folks of somewhere like Chippenham)

 

[45669]

99% of tickets I check onboard daily are Advance singles booked through a mobile app. A lot of these are return journeys, however with separate advance single tickets for out and return.

If the new method is to scrap returns and sell singles for each direction instead, this seems to be what most people do anyway these days on their phones (as it often works out cheaper).

It's clear that I've never been on one of your trains. If I had it would only be 98% as my wife and I would both have had proper tickets.

 

[RT4038]

How many countries expect their passenger rail services to operate without some form of subsidy from taxes (either for those services specifically or for infratructure)?

I don't think there is much suggestion that UK passenger rail services operate without some form of subsidy. It is the quantity of that subsidy, and what it buys, that is always at contention.

It's clear that I've never been on one of your trains. If I had it would only be 98% as my wife and I would both have had proper tickets.

If the train had 300 passengers aboard, you both would be well within the 99% !

 

[45669]

I don't think there is much suggestion that UK passenger rail services operate without some form of subsidy. It is the quantity of that subsidy, and what it buys, that is always at contention.


If the train had 300 passengers aboard, you both would be well within the 99% !

I can't say that I've taken a particular note of numbers, but I'm sure that when our guards come round there are quite a few other people as well as us waving their proper tickets in the air for the guard to see. There also seem to be lots of other people queuing at the station ticket machines, and at the ticket office window, so they would also have proper tickets.

On the one occasion when I was brave enough to try buying the tickets in advance, I still had to queue up at the ticket machine and use the credit card to collect the tickets. I suppose it was a little bit quicker as I didn't have to press buttons to say where we going, etc. It wasn't any cheaper though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

I absolutely do not understand some of the comments on here. Advance tickets already vary fairly dramatically across the day. The cheapest priced are at the least popular times as it stands - the cheapest ticket from my house to London next Wednesday is on the 2117. The most expensive is on the 717. It's been like that for 20 years.

It's very difficult to compare ticket prices on here because everybody lives somewhere different, they make different journeys at different times and with different regularity.

In my case there is no advantage in buying tickets in advance. If I rushed to the station and got the next train to Waterloo, a single ticket would be £18.90 (if, in my rush, I forgot my railcard!). However, if I wanted travel in two month time on the 8th April and bough the ticket now, it would still cost me £18.90 (unless I remembered my railcard!).

 

[JamesT]

How many countries expect their passenger rail services to operate without some form of subsidy from taxes (either for those services specifically or for infratructure)?

None, but I don't believe that has been suggested for here either. He's merely said that the current level of subsidy is not sustainable given the level of service that is being provided.