Harper confirms GBR to go ahead

[Facing Back]

Yes must say although I haven't really done the journey since Covid when I used to do it in Virgin days, Wigan / Warringotn to Euston was pretty well occupied even in First Class. And coming back in peak times was pretty much standing room only and the famous Euston scramble when the platform is announced, even with their ridiculous ticket prices and having lengthened them to 11 cars only a few years prior. That to me says that capacity is the issue and demand pricing (and HS2) could make a big difference!

agreed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

I've already said, I don't understand apps, QR codes and any of that stuff. I only bought a smart phone because I wanted a simple and lightweight spare camera. Unfortunately, as I've got older, I've found luffing a camera bag full of DSLRs, lenses, camcorders, etc. around was just getting too heavy for me. So I've had to cut down on the stuff I carry around and as smart phone cameras have got better and better I finally succumbed and shelled out for one.

So, as far as I'm concerned, it's a small and lightweight camera that I can have in my pocket when I don't want to cart a whole bagful of camera, etc. around. As a bonus, I can also ring people up with it and say, "I'm on the train!"

fair enough. Over time though you might be in an increasing minority. I guess the question will be when that point is and what is done to accomodate passengers who refuse to use mobile devices. Smart cards are an obvious option.

 

[JonathanH]

Most of my travels on London Transport, and we even main line railways in the London area, are made using a one day travel card. Nothing could be simper than that, so why change it? I can go where I like, when I like, and make up my itinerary as I go.

The most obvious reason to change is to handle revenue apportionment more accurately and reflect customer demand for Oyster / Contactless which is used by the vast majority of passengers, not 'paper' travelcards.

 

[142blue]

I didn't either until a couple months ago and its actually quite convenient. There's an app called Trainline where you:
1. Enter your two stations
2. Select return/single/etc...
3. Tap the train you want to go on
4. Choose the cheapest ticket available. (off peak tickets will only show for off peak trains I'm pretty sure...)
It gives you two QR codes arranged nicely in a tab for 'out' and 'return'. Just scan the QR code on the scanner at the rail station if it has it. (if not, just show it to a rail worker, they'll let you through) The scanner is this thing: View attachment 128714
I was quite afraid of using at first but its now my preferred way of of getting a ticket. No need to faff with the annoying, dirty ticket machines. The app should have this logo:
View attachment 128715

I use it to check train timings as well cos idk how else to do it lol. The platform predictions have been accurate 100% of the time for me, I'm not sure about others tho...

Sorry, politely disagree

Trainline sells tickets for trains that don't exist

It defaults to the cheapest option, you buy it then realise it's fixed to that train or you can only use it on a train that stops at a certain station

Open returns - it sells on the day ones

Platform info does not always update in real time

Did someone say booking fees?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

I'd like to know what happens on routes where there is no peak time, it's off peak all day. What gets charged then

Also if it's going to fluctuating prices how can you budget for your travel if you are not sure when you are coming home?

I see a future where there will be a single ticket that isn't train specific but it won't be cheap with lots of cheaper on the day advances.

Understand why returns are being scrapped as potentially the return portion of not a we code could be used over and over, just buy new outward ones

 

[Fazaar1889]

Most of my travels on London Transport, and we even main line railways in the London area, are made using a one day travel card. Nothing could be simper than that, so why change it? I can go where I like, when I like, and make up my itinerary as I go.

That's fair tbh

 

[Minstral25]

The most obvious reason to change is to handle revenue apportionment more accurately and reflect customer demand for Oyster / Contactless which is used by the vast majority of passengers, not 'paper' travelcards.

Biggest problem with digital ticket provision is that it assumes users are travelling alone and with a smart phone.

i use contactless a lot but I wouldn’t want an App to store my ticket. Why because Smartphones are dangerous in my hands as I can’t read small screens easy and have inaccurate fingers.

Just qualified for a senior Railcard so have been forced back to paper for travel. It was such a pleasure to have a paper ticket again.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Biggest problem with digital ticket provision is that it assumes users are travelling alone and with a smart phone.

Just had a chat on here with a person who doesn't really use his smartphone and his wife doesn't even have one. If he had to get digital tickets, it'd be a bit of a faff for him as he has to pass the phone back over the barrier for his wife to use the smartphone

 

[stuu]

Just had a chat on here with a person who doesn't really use his smartphone and his wife doesn't even have one. If he had to get digital tickets, it'd be a bit of a faff for him as he has to pass the phone back over the barrier for his wife to use the smartphone

Why would anyone do that? You let the other person through first, then go through yourself. I do that regularly when travelling with my son

 

[43066]

Most of my travels on London Transport, and we even main line railways in the London area, are made using a one day travel card. Nothing could be simper than that, so why change it? I can go where I like, when I like, and make up my itinerary as I go.

I don’t think its been suggested that paper tickets will be phased out of TVMs for the foreseeable future? You should therefore be able to simply buy and print travel cards at the station using the TVM, rather than purchasing from the ticket office.

 

[RailWonderer]

Yes must say although I haven't really done the journey since Covid when I used to do it in Virgin days, Wigan / Warringotn to Euston was pretty well occupied even in First Class. And coming back in peak times was pretty much standing room only and the famous Euston scramble when the platform is announced, even with their ridiculous ticket prices and having lengthened them to 11 cars only a few years prior. That to me says that capacity is the issue and demand pricing (and HS2) could make a big difference!

That was the hourly Glasgow service and it was mostly full leaving Central and Wigan, Warrington was never the biggest passenger flow.

 

[45669]

Biggest problem with digital ticket provision is that it assumes users are travelling alone and with a smart phone.

i use contactless a lot but I wouldn’t want an App to store my ticket. Why because Smartphones are dangerous in my hands as I can’t read small screens easy and have inaccurate fingers.

Just qualified for a senior Railcard so have been forced back to paper for travel. It was such a pleasure to have a paper ticket again.

Welcome to the third age! We certainly make good use of our railcards and travel by train whenever we can. So the railways gain as we make more journeys than we would do if we didn't have railcards. It also means one less vehicle on the M25!

A smart phone needs a smart user. That's why I regard my smart phone as a camera that can also make and receive phone calls. I am aware that it can also do a million other things, but I can do those at home on my laptop with a proper keyboard and a mouse. I don't need to to those things when I'm on holiday or having a day out. And those tend to be the only times that the mobile come out of its box.

I too find using a touch screen and tiny little letters and numbers difficult. There's no way that I could carry out these interesting exchanges using the phone, but I wonder how many of the other people in these exchanges are doing it all on their phones? My daughters do everything on their phones all the time and, quite often, don't even have their laptops turned on. I suspect that many of the folks on here are much younger than I am and I wonder how they'll cope with what ever new technology is foisted on them when they're octogenarians!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

Why would anyone do that? You let the other person through first, then go through yourself. I do that regularly when travelling with my son

Someone else has also pointed that out although I wouldn't have thought of it as I assumed that the person going through the gate would have to have the phone in their hand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

I don’t think its been suggested that paper tickets will be phased out of TVMs for the foreseeable future? You should therefore be able to simply buy and print travel cards at the station using the TVM, rather than purchasing from the ticket office.

I hope you're right, although I got the impression earlier on in this thread that what I regard as proper tickets were being withdrawn altogether.

 

[stuu]

Welcome to the third age! We certainly make good use of our railcards and travel by train whenever we can. So the railways gain as we make more journeys than we would do if we didn't have railcards. It also means one less vehicle on the M25!

A smart phone needs a smart user. That's why I regard my smart phone as a camera that can also make and receive phone calls. I am aware that it can also do a million other things, but I can do those at home on my laptop with a proper keyboard and a mouse. I don't need to to those things when I'm on holiday or having a day out. And those tend to be the only times that the mobile come out of its box.

I too find using a touch screen and tiny little letters and numbers difficult. There's no way that I could carry out these interesting exchanges using the phone, but I wonder how many of the other people in these exchanges are doing it all on their phones? My daughters do everything on their phones all the time and, quite often, don't even have their laptops turned on. I suspect that many of the folks on here are much younger than I am and I wonder how they'll cope with what ever new technology is foisted on them when they're octogenarians!


Someone else has also pointed that out although I wouldn't have thought of it as I assumed that the person going through the gate would have to have the phone in their hand.

Both my parents and parents in law are all in their 70s and all have smartphones, which they use a lot. There are lots of accessibility settings to make the text larger, invert the colours or change the typeface to make it easier to read, if needed. They are less technically challenging than using a laptop, if you have someone to show you how

If you did have a ticket on a mobile phone or something printed at home, the scanner on ticket gates is on near side so it's very easy to do, if travelling with more than one person

 

[Halwynd]

Before I decided against using a smartphone/App and etickets, I tried two* - the first was Trainsplit; very easy to use, very clear, all the right functions including Apple Pay - it would have been the one I would have chosen. The other was Trainline. Quite a nice, easy to use App too, but what really put me off were the animated adverts. I'm not a heavy smartphone user so don't need a contract, and I'm certainly not paying for data for the privilege of being show adverts!

* I've seen enough TOC websites to know that I'm probably not going to bother with their Apps.

 

[nw1]

You’d just buy an anytime single, which would cost you more for the flexibility just like now…

So how would two anytime singles compare with the price of a return now?

If it's more, then it's clearly going to make things more expensive for the very large number of passengers doing local journeys who just want to "turn up and go".

If a single will be half the price of a current return, then fair enough.

 

[Iskra]

So how would two anytime singles compare with the price of a return now?

If it's more, then it's clearly going to make things more expensive for the very large number of passengers doing local journeys who just want to "turn up and go".

If a single will be half the price of a current return, then fair enough.

We’ll just have to wait and see, but I don’t think the railway would survive a ‘stealth fare hike’ scandal currently, so I don’t think it is in anyone’s interest to do that.

 

[AndrewE]

We’ll just have to wait and see, but I don’t think the railway would survive a ‘stealth fare hike’ scandal currently, so I don’t think it is in anyone’s interest to do that.

Don't you think the govt has survived far worse scandals? I can think of quite a few things where the person at the top should have jumped or been pushed - and nothing has happened. They don't give a toss how many people use trains or are offended by what they do.

I would offer the ongoing Windrush affair, children being "collected" from asylum-seekers accommodation, the contaminated blood scandal where people are still dying without compensation, probably about another dozen outrages to make you ashamed that it is being done "in your name."

 

[zwk500]

We’ll just have to wait and see, but I don’t think the railway would survive a ‘stealth fare hike’ scandal currently, so I don’t think it is in anyone’s interest to do that.

It's very much in the government's interests to hike fares, and a stealth hike is better than an obvious hike. The rise would be covered up in the general rise in the cost of living, of course, so the outrage would be less and most people use the train when they aren't able to use the car, so they'll still use the train (e.g. inner city parking/traffic, drinking)

 

[Iskra]

It's very much in the government's interests to hike fares, and a stealth hike is better than an obvious hike. The rise would be covered up in the general rise in the cost of living, of course, so the outrage would be less and most people use the train when they aren't able to use the car, so they'll still use the train (e.g. inner city parking/traffic, drinking)

Why would it be, it would reduce demand and therefore increase subsidy?

Fare rises are routinely front page news, so I don’t think a cover-up is very likely.

 

[zwk500]

Why would it be, it would reduce demand and therefore increase subsidy?

because it would increase revenue on lines that are busy and push down usage, justifying cuts, on lines that are borderline.

Fare rises are routinely front page news, so I don’t think a cover-up is very likely.

The success of a cover up is a different matter but this government will say anything it thinks it needs to even if it's blindingly obvious the opposite is happening.

 

[Thirteen]

If the DfT want GBR to be a success, they could try and poach people from TfL who have experience with handling passenger service contracts and doing it well.

 

[Iskra]

because it would increase revenue on lines that are busy and push down usage, justifying cuts, on lines that are borderline.

The success of a cover up is a different matter but this government will say anything it thinks it needs to even if it's blindingly obvious the opposite is happening.

But those lines are already busy/quiet, and they still exist, so I’m not sure a modest fare change would make much difference to their respective positions.

I’m not convinced by that, and I’m not sure any evidence exists to justify that position (Under Sunak at least).

 

[Facing Back]

So how would two anytime singles compare with the price of a return now?

If it's more, then it's clearly going to make things more expensive for the very large number of passengers doing local journeys who just want to "turn up and go".

If a single will be half the price of a current return, then fair enough.

Now?

On Avanti, 2 Anytime Singles are together the same price as an Anytime Return. Which is very expensive - £369 from Manchester to London.

Off peak and advance singles and returns are very much cheaper

 

[zwk500]

But those lines are already busy/quiet, and they still exist, so I’m not sure a modest fare change would make much difference to their respective positions.

Just remember the treasury is looking for substantial cost savings as quickly as possible.

I’m not convinced by that, and I’m not sure any evidence exists to justify that position (Under Sunak at least).

Really? The contortions it went through to justify the appointment of Braverman, or to try and avoid sacking Zahawi weren't blindingly obvious?

 

[Master29]

Just remember the treasury is looking for substantial cost savings as quickly as possible.

At least that is the line they are peddling at the moment.

 

[nw1]

Now?

On Avanti, 2 Anytime Singles are together the same price as an Anytime Return. Which is very expensive - £369 from Manchester to London.

Off peak and advance singles and returns are very much cheaper

I was more asking whether the new anytime single would be half the price of the current off-peak return. And will there be a super-off-peak single to cover the time frame of the current super-off-peak returns (increasingly restricted - more price rises by stealth).

 

[45669]

Both my parents and parents in law are all in their 70s and all have smartphones, which they use a lot. There are lots of accessibility settings to make the text larger, invert the colours or change the typeface to make it easier to read, if needed. They are less technically challenging than using a laptop, if you have someone to show you how

If you did have a ticket on a mobile phone or something printed at home, the scanner on ticket gates is on near side so it's very easy to do, if travelling with more than one person

Well, there you are; they're obviously smart users. Some of us are dumb users.

I can print things at home, but it's a bit of a faff. The printer won't work with my current laptop, so I have to transfer a document to one of those memory stick things, take it upstairs, fire up my donkey's years old computer with which the printer does work, and print it from that. And before you ask, no, I can't print things directly from the internet on the old computer because it's no longer connected to the internet. It's got Windows XP on it which is no longer protected from nasties; so as I don't need it to be connected to the internet I disconnected it. I only keep it because I need it for very occasional printing and it's also the only one that my scanner recognises.

But as I use the printer so rarely, the ink in the nozzles dry up, so each time I do use it I have to faff about cleaning the nozzles first. So given a choice, I'll carry on buying my / our train tickets at the railway station as I've always done.

 

[yorkie]

For discussion regarding single leg pricing please use the following thread:

End of the line for return rail tickets

Story in the Telegraph today, not yet available online but it has made the front page (amongst the lettuce and the balloon): RETURN tickets are to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long awaited reforms of railways, Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will announce plans...

www.railforums.co.uk

For any speculation regarding what may or may not happen regarding GBR please use the Speculative Discussion section (use an an existing thread, if there is one, or create a new one)

Sorry, politely disagree

Trainline sells tickets for trains that don't exist

Trainline issues itineraries based on the timetable provided by TOCs; if you have any particular issue to highlight to us please create a new thread for discussion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

Well, there you are; they're obviously smart users. Some of us are dumb users.

I can print things at home, but it's a bit of a faff. The printer won't work with my current laptop, so I have to transfer a document to one of those memory stick things, take it upstairs, fire up my donkey's years old computer with which the printer does work, and print it from that. And before you ask, no, I can't print things directly from the internet on the old computer because it's no longer connected to the internet. It's got Windows XP on it which is no longer protected from nasties; so as I don't need it to be connected to the internet I disconnected it. I only keep it because I need it for very occasional printing and it's also the only one that my scanner recognises.

But as I use the printer so rarely, the ink in the nozzles dry up, so each time I do use it I have to faff about cleaning the nozzles first. So given a choice, I'll carry on buying my / our train tickets at the railway station as I've always done.

There have been numerous threads discussing options for printing e tickets (if people want to print them, they can; there is no obligation to), for example:

E-Tickets being inaccessible/difficult to use for the elderly.

For comparison, at work our contract is for 2.36p for colour and 0.27p for mono. Admittedly that is a heavy duty printer but I am surprised yours is ten times the cost! I had a play around with the different options on "printerland" (a seller of printers who quote "running costs"* for all the...

www.railforums.co.uk