Harper confirms GBR to go ahead

[jon0844]

I can't say that I've taken a particular note of numbers, but I'm sure that when our guards come round there are quite a few other people as well as us waving their proper tickets in the air for the guard to see.

What's a 'proper' ticket?

 

[45669]

What's a 'proper' ticket?

One that comes out of a ticket machine or is passed through a booking office window by a booking clerk. Of course, some of us might argue that a 'proper' ticket is an Edmondson Card ticket that's date stamped by machine, usually green, that goes kerchonk kerchonk.

 

[Magdalia]

What's a 'proper' ticket?

My dictionary says that a ticket is "a card, slip or placard bearing a notice or serving as a token of any right or debt". So a "proper" ticket is a physical item on paper or card. Something on a mobile phone may confer a right to travel but it is not a "proper" ticket.

 

[RailWonderer]

Avanti are starting to offer a new service where you can buy a single for £20 from Manchester to London but you won’t know what train you’re on until the day before.

Of what use is that? The majority of passengers cannot use just any train - it may be physically impossible for those who live outside Manchester unless you drive into Piccadilly to catch the first train of the day, and very few if anybody will want to arrive at Euston at midnight either. This lottery system is stupid although a very few people will like it. Another pie in the sky idea Avanti conjured up, when they should be focusing on providing the core service better.

 

[Halwynd]

Of what use is that? The majority of passengers cannot use just any train - it may be physically impossible for those who live outside Manchester unless you drive into Piccadilly to catch the first train of the day, and very few if anybody will want to arrive at Euston at midnight either. This lottery system is stupid although a very few people will like it. Another pie in the sky idea Avanti conjured up, when they should be focusing on providing the core service better.

I couldn't agree more.

Let's make ticketing simpler... so we'll have one website for some tickets, another website for others, and then a frog App on top.

Avanti must be desperate...

 

[Horizon22]

To move people away from the "peak" train service I'd say, but other than that I agree.

Yes, clumsily worded on my part.

 

[Facing Back]

I don't think there is much suggestion that UK passenger rail services operate without some form of subsidy. It is the quantity of that subsidy, and what it buys, that is always at contention.

That's how I read too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

One that comes out of a ticket machine or is passed through a booking office window by a booking clerk. Of course, some of us might argue that a 'proper' ticket is an Edmondson Card ticket that's date stamped by machine, usually green, that goes kerchonk kerchonk.

I like the kerchonk kerchonk! I wonder if I can persuade my iPhone to do that

 

[Meerkat]

Of what use is that? The majority of passengers cannot use just any train - it may be physically impossible for those who live outside Manchester unless you drive into Piccadilly to catch the first train of the day, and very few if anybody will want to arrive at Euston at midnight either. This lottery system is stupid although a very few people will like it. Another pie in the sky idea Avanti conjured up, when they should be focusing on providing the core service better.

Its not for the majority of passengers. But there will be a good number that arent that fussed, such as students.
If it means the railway gets some money for empty seats and/or demand is moved off the rammed full trains it must be a good thing right?

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

scrapping the return tickets could be cheaper in the long run if done right. Take this example from the ITV article

if the single tickets are half price and if I might not need to take the return, that would mean me saving money

Aye, but can you see the new price for the single ticket being half of the current cheap day return ticket price because I can't.

What I can see is the new price being the CDR price minus the 10p they usually add on meaning that under the new system, your return journey will cost you twice what it does now apart from the 10p

 

[Facing Back]

Aye, but can you see the new price for the single ticket being half of the current cheap day return ticket price because I can't.

What I can see is the new price being the CDR price minus the 10p they usually add on meaning that under the new system, your return journey will cost you twice what it does now apart from the 10p

Lets see. I'm expecting it be half the price of the return ticket.

 

[RailWonderer]

Its not for the majority of passengers. But there will be a good number that arent that fussed, such as students.
If it means the railway gets some money for empty seats and/or demand is moved off the rammed full trains it must be a good thing right?

A lot of demand is inelastic to price, people take the train they need to. Plus there is a reason why those seats are, have and will always be empty. Very few people can be convinced to travel at anti-social hours.

 

[Facing Back]

Its not for the majority of passengers. But there will be a good number that arent that fussed, such as students.
If it means the railway gets some money for empty seats and/or demand is moved off the rammed full trains it must be a good thing right?

I agree. A bit of innovation which doesn't cost anything to fill seats on quiet trains. It doesn't replace demand based tickets but why not try it and see? A bit of innovation.

It is of no use to me but I can see those who would love it.

It doesn't do away with the need to simplify ticket options - but that is a long term project.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

A lot of demand is inelastic to price, people take the train they need to. Plus there is a reason why those seats are, have and will always be empty. Very few people can be convinced to travel at anti-social hours.

I agree a lot of demand is inelastic to price, but I believe that a lot of demand isn't. I don't believe this will have a significant impact but why not try it?

TOCs seem to have been terrible at marketing but if Avanti reach out to those who at not time sensitive then who knows? I like the fact that they are trying out options to fill seats on unpopular trains.

 

[Meerkat]

A lot of demand is inelastic to price, people take the train they need to. Plus there is a reason why those seats are, have and will always be empty. Very few people can be convinced to travel at anti-social hours.

And this makes travel better for those inelastic people as some of the crowding will be alleviated. Who said anti-social hours - aren't there empty seats during the day?
And if people are willing to go long distance on coaches to save money I am pretty sure they can be flexible with their travel time.

It doesn't do away with the need to simplify ticket options - but that is a long term project.

Personally I don't understand the need to simplify ticket options, just simplify the buying - you say what you want and the system offers the cheapest way to do that.
I can't see how simplifying options will not have more losers than winners.

 

[robert thomas]

So a handful of headline grabbing low fares , provided i book 8 months in advance and travel on an all stations stopper , departing at 2235. Meanwhile the fares the majority will end up paying will go up no doubt. Its another step closer to reservation only intercity travel like on the continent....

Most continental inter city travel is not reservation only. France is and its a pain if you want a flexible itinerary as a tourist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most continental inter city travel is not reservation only. France is and its a pain if you want a flexible itinerary as a tourist.

Generally there's a bit of a split. The Germanic countries are reservations optional, while the Romance countries are compulsory. The Slavic countries tend to be a bit of both, e.g. Poland has a system where a ticket isn't sold without a reservation but you can still, seemingly, get on whichever train you like with that ticket without penalty, other than the Pendolino services where there's a penalty for doing so.

It is probably, overall, about half and half.

What the UK is unique in doing, though, is having outrageously priced peak time walk up/maximum fares and a lower off peak one. More common is "full whack" being reasonably affordable though a little higher than the UK in most cases, perhaps a comparison would be £75 single, £150 return London-Manchester.

 

[greyman42]

Of what use is that? The majority of passengers cannot use just any train - it may be physically impossible for those who live outside Manchester unless you drive into Piccadilly to catch the first train of the day, and very few if anybody will want to arrive at Euston at midnight either. This lottery system is stupid although a very few people will like it. Another pie in the sky idea Avanti conjured up, when they should be focusing on providing the core service better.

The service is there if you wish to use it but if it does not suit your travel needs then don't use it, simple as that. I would be interested to know what the take up on it is, it sounds like great value to me.

 

[45669]

I like the kerchonk kerchonk! I wonder if I can persuade my iPhone to do that

I couldn't think how to describe it. Perhaps kerlunk kerlunk would be better? Anyone that has bought a ticket at one of the heritage railways that still use them will know what I mean.

 

[fandroid]

In my case there is no advantage in buying tickets in advance. If I rushed to the station and got the next train to Waterloo, a single ticket would be £18.90 (if, in my rush, I forgot my railcard!). However, if I wanted travel in two month time on the 8th April and bough the ticket now, it would still cost me £18.90 (unless I remembered my railcard!).

I suspect that I don't live very far from you. I too mostly travel to Waterloo, that 18.90 fare seems very familiar and I cannot get Advance fares for that journey. I do, however nearly always buy tickets in advance. Sometimes it's the day before, sometimes it's the same day but from home and sometimes it's as I walk towards my station. In every case it's for an e-ticket on my phone. I can then avoid the ticket office queues you mention and any queues for machines. Picking up the non-long distance implications of the Minister's speech, I'd guess that we'll both be in the area that has contactless ticketing within a year or so. That turns the idea of Advance tickets on its head for local journeys. Just turn up and tap. No "proper tickets" to show, even in a virtual form on a phone. I've even given up on "proper tickets" (in the form of Outboundary Travelcards) for Tube journeys, although it costs me a little bit more. My Oystercard is more reliable than those little bits of cardboard are.

 

[Energy]

What the UK is unique in doing, though, is having outrageously priced peak time walk up/maximum fares and a lower off peak one. More common is "full whack" being reasonably affordable though a little higher than the UK in most cases, perhaps a comparison would be £75 single, £150 return London-Manchester.

On a side note, HS2 should balance out the numbers a little on routes like London - Manchester by providing a lot more capacity so prices can go down

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a side note, HS2 should balance out the numbers a little on routes like London - Manchester by providing a lot more capacity so prices can go down

Capacity isn't an issue on business-peak WCML services. They run mostly empty for much of the route, then pick up MKC commuters for an added ORCATS bonus. It's price gouging/revenue maximisation, not capacity management.

 

[43066]

Personally I don't understand the need to simplify ticket options, just simplify the buying - you say what you want and the system offers the cheapest way to do that.
I can't see how simplifying options will not have more losers than winners.

It’s clear that the changes are at least partly motivated by the government’s desire to increase revenue/reduce subsidy, so “more losers than winners” is a racing certainty!

 

[Facing Back]

Capacity isn't an issue on business-peak WCML services. They run mostly empty for much of the route, then pick up MKC commuters for an added ORCATS bonus. It's price gouging/revenue maximisation, not capacity management.

Is this since Covid? Before that, when I used to catch (regularly) peak morning services from Manchester or Warrington to London they tended to be full

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this since Covid? Before that, when I used to catch (regularly) peak morning services from Manchester or Warrington to London they tended to be full

It'll certainly have reduced post COVID, yes, though in my experience they used to arrive for their MKC stop about half full and MKC commuters would fill them.

mod note MKC = Miklton Keynes Central

 

[Facing Back]

It’s clear that the changes are at least partly motivated by the government’s desire to increase revenue/reduce subsidy, so “more losers than winners” is a racing certainty!

haha. Well I'll grant you that it seems highly unlikely that there will be "more winners than losers".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

It'll certainly have reduced post COVID, yes, though in my experience they used to arrive for their MKC stop about half full and MKC commuters would fill them.

Fair enough. I'd do it once or twice a week up until a few years back and would normally ensure I had a reservation even in first as they seemed generally full from Stockport. The Warrington trains didn't stop at Milton Keynes thinking about it, just the Manchester ones

 

[45669]

I suspect that I don't live very far from you. I too mostly travel to Waterloo, that 18.90 fare seems very familiar and I cannot get Advance fares for that journey. I do, however nearly always buy tickets in advance. Sometimes it's the day before, sometimes it's the same day but from home and sometimes it's as I walk towards my station. In every case it's for an e-ticket on my phone. I can then avoid the ticket office queues you mention and any queues for machines. Picking up the non-long distance implications of the Minister's speech, I'd guess that we'll both be in the area that has contactless ticketing within a year or so. That turns the idea of Advance tickets on its head for local journeys. Just turn up and tap. No "proper tickets" to show, even in a virtual form on a phone. I've even given up on "proper tickets" (in the form of Outboundary Travelcards) for Tube journeys, although it costs me a little bit more. My Oystercard is more reliable than those little bits of cardboard are.

I live too far from the station to walk and the useless bus no longer goes there, so I have to use the car and pay the exorbitant car park charge. I still find a One Day Off Peak Travelcard suits me best if I'm visiting various parts of London provided I don't stray beyond Zone 6. £21 with a geriatric railcard. So I hope this brave new world isn't going to do away with those.

I've no idea how to use a phone to buy train tickets, and some people I know either haven't got mobile phones or, if they have, that's all it is - just a phone. So they'll have to keep some form of proper tickets or we'll never be able to travel by train again.

 

[43066]

I've no idea how to use a phone to buy train tickets, and some people I know either haven't got mobile phones or, if they have, that's all it is - just a phone. So they'll have to keep some form of proper tickets or we'll never be able to travel by train again.

If you’re IT literate enough to post on here then surely you could learn to use a smartphone?

 

[sbf kent]

So, I travelled up to London from Folkestone West on Monday afternoon at 13.15 - cost of ticket with a network railcard £24.40, including High Speed 1 supplement, train about 60 per cent full. I travelled out of London on Tuesday morning at 08.30 to Folkestone West, cost of ticket £49.60, train ten per cent full. So, I would be in favour of demand management as it might balance out capacity if applied sensibly? reverse commuting today makes no sense with current fares, it should.

 

[45669]

If you’re IT literate enough to post on here then surely you could learn to use a smartphone?

Well, only if someone takes the time to teach me!

 

[Fazaar1889]

I've no idea how to use a phone to buy train tickets

I didn't either until a couple months ago and its actually quite convenient. There's an app called Trainline where you:
1. Enter your two stations
2. Select return/single/etc...
3. Tap the train you want to go on
4. Choose the cheapest ticket available. (off peak tickets will only show for off peak trains I'm pretty sure...)
It gives you two QR codes arranged nicely in a tab for 'out' and 'return'. Just scan the QR code on the scanner at the rail station if it has it. (if not, just show it to a rail worker, they'll let you through) The scanner is this thing:
I was quite afraid of using at first but its now my preferred way of of getting a ticket. No need to faff with the annoying, dirty ticket machines. The app should have this logo:


I use it to check train timings as well cos idk how else to do it lol. The platform predictions have been accurate 100% of the time for me, I'm not sure about others tho...

 

[Class172]

I didn't either until a couple months ago and its actually quite convenient. There's an app called Trainline where you:
1. Enter your two stations
2. Select return/single/etc...
3. Tap the train you want to go on
4. Choose the cheapest ticket available. (off peak tickets will only show for off peak trains I'm pretty sure...)
It gives you two QR codes arranged nicely in a tab for 'out' and 'return'. Just scan the QR code on the scanner at the rail station if it has it. (if not, just show it to a rail worker, they'll let you through' The scanner is this thing:
I was quite afraid of using at first but its now my preferred way of of getting a ticket. No need to faff with the annoying, dirty ticket machines. The app should have this logo:


I use it to check train timings as well cos idk how else to do it lol. The platform predictions have been accurate 100% of the time for me, I'm not sure about others tho...

Just to point out in very BBC style, "other ticket providers are available" -- most rail ticketing apps these days will provide the option for a ticket which you can scan from your phone. There are some caveats in that some specific types of tickets are not yet available in digital form, but the vast majority are now in my personal experience.

At the top of the forum website you'll find an option for tickets where you can buy tickets in both paper and digital form, which was introduced a few months ago and helps to support the forum; you'll find a thread about it here. Alternatively, here's a link straight to the booking engine - https://tickets.railforums.co.uk