Transpennine Express boss apologises for poor services (BBC)

[43066]

Why aren't these these high rates of sick absence affecting other sectors as well?

I understand they’ve been high across the board in most sectors since Covid ended.

Nice dig at railway staff, though.

 

[Confused52]

I understand they’ve been high across the board in most sectors since Covid ended.

Nice dig at railway staff, though.

Pleas of victimhood may be a little thin though. The average in TPE was quoted in the Commons Select Committee as being 14%. ONS average for all industries in 2021 (latest figures), so when Covid was worse, 2.2%. That difference is not just small and suggests there is a problem of some kind.

 

[43066]

Pleas of victimhood may be a little thin though. The average in TPE was quoted in the Commons Select Committee as being 14%. ONS average for all industries in 2021 (latest figures), so when Covid was worse, 2.2%. That difference is not just small and suggests there is a problem of some kind.

It would be interesting to know how they arrived at that figure. All I would say is that TOCs have attendance management policies the same as anywhere else, so “throwing a sickie” is no easier on the railway than anywhere else.

Of course appalling industrial relations and a poorly motivated and dissatisfied workforce also lead to higher rates of sickness absence, which is also true across the board.

 

[Confused52]

It would be interesting to know how they arrived at that figure. All I would say is that TOCs have attendance management policies the same as anywhere else, so “throwing a sickie” is no easier on the railway than anywhere else.

Of course appalling industrial relations and a poorly motivated and dissatisfied workforce also lead to higher rates of sickness absence, which is also true across the board.

I do not expect that industrial relations issues would count for much in a disciplinary case based on excessive absence.

 

[Watershed]

All I would say is that TOCs have attendance management policies the same as anywhere else, so “throwing a sickie” is no easier on the railway than anywhere else.

Having attendance management policies on paper is meaningless if they aren't actually applied. My experience is that sick days are treated as free extra holiday on the railway; by contrast, at one private sector employer I was pulled in for an attendance meeting for having two sick days in a year.

Sick pay policies are also much more generous on the railway than most other employers.

 

[43066]

I do not expect that industrial relations issues would count for much in a disciplinary case based on excessive absence.

That may be the case but it doesn’t change the fact that poor IR tends to mean more absence.

Having attendance management policies on paper is meaningless if they aren't actually applied. My experience is that sick days are treated as free extra holiday on the railway; by contrast, at one private sector employer I was pulled in for an attendance meeting for having two sick days in a year.

Sick pay policies are also much more generous on the railway than most other employers.

That’s interesting because my experience is the exact opposite - I’ve witnessed them being dogmatically applied - I was taken to stage one at my last employer for having two periods of illness just (by a matter of days) within thirteen weeks despite one necessitating a hospital visit (which I could prove).

I’m not at all sure your second statement is true. Sick pay is less generous than at most private sector employers I’ve worked for, for example statutory only for a period of time upon joining.

Plus, looking at drivers especially, it’s a sedentary, unhealthy job done by an ageing workforce. It also isn’t the kind of job where you can shuffle into work and sit staring into space if you’re unwell, like you can do more easily in office based jobs. Of course people aren’t interested in things like this, and would rather accuse staff of taking liberties!

 

[jettofab]

Plus, looking at drivers especially, it’s a sedentary, unhealthy job done by an ageing workforce. It also isn’t the kind of job where you can shuffle into work and sit staring into space if you’re unwell, like you can do more easily in office based jobs. Of course people aren’t interested in things like this, and would rather accuse staff of taking liberties!

This point is woefully under appreciated by management. Many office jobs, including railway office jobs, could be done with a sprained or broken ankle, for example. Not platforms/barriers/guards/drivers. I know I've struggled through on little sleep in an office role when I've had a bad cold, because it's just a cold. Factor in getting up at 0230 and maintaining concentration on a long lonely run in a dark cab and it's a different ball game. I've not yet gone sick for a cold because I always still think well it's just a cold, but I've come close.

And so on and so on.

Plus of course we are stringently monitored and disciplined in the event of an incident. In many other jobs a mistake is just a mistake, it doesn't form a permanent record that follows you to any future employment. That does mean people are rightly more cautious about putting themselves in a position where they might make a mistake.

There are plenty of other jobs who couldn't work with a broken ankle, would be affected by a cold etc, please let's not start mentioning them. We all know they exist and perhaps they too have higher than average sick rates.

 

[Moonshot]

Why aren't these these high rates of sick absence affecting other sectors as well?

I ve no idea ....I'm simply posting what is an actual fact. Northern affected by this as well.

 

[xotGD]

Off topic, but what is it with the 68s, the noise seems really penetrating. On a calm morning you could hear them leave Scarborough at Seamer station, and I am more than a bit deaf, and when one is idling in Scarbrough the whole train shed seems to vibrate.

Yes, they are seriously loud. Great, isn't it?

 

[EZJ]

I'm not going to get into too much as I work for said company. But the 14% sickness quoted by various rags is not true and by no means a major contributor to current issues.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not going to get into too much as I work for said company. But the 14% sickness quoted by various rags is not true and by no means a major contributor to current issues.

AIUI It’s not sickness, but is 14%. IE 14% nominally productive drivers who are not able to drive for various reasons including sickness, awaiting return to work training, etc. etc. I have a good friend who is a TPE driver, fit as a fiddle, but not driving due to a medical issue.

 

[Krokodil]

It's not nonsense at all. They're trying to reverse the policy of crews only signing, and working, short sections of the route, though clearly with timetables in place it's more of a long term thing than anything that's not going to yield much in the way of short term results.

Are they? If the policy has indeed changed then that is good news. I'd be surprised if it were true though, cutting back route knowledge in pursuit of false economies is very much DfT policy.

I do not expect that industrial relations issues would count for much in a disciplinary case based on excessive absence.

No, but poor morale will make people more reluctant to "just come in and muddle through" when they're feeling a little under the weather. It will also increase absences due to stress.

The average age of railway staff is quite high too, that often means more long term absence - waiting for a hip replacement or a hernia operation for example. Obviously safety critical roles require you to be in a state of fitness which may not be necessary in othe walks of life - a broken ankle has already been cited as one example, no working from home if you're traincrew. Then consider that certain medications are banned for such workers, so if a driver has to be prescribed co-codamol for example he will be taken off of driving duties for the duration.

Then there is a requirement to attend a periodic medical. Waiting for an appointment or something needs clarifying? That's you away from safety-critical duties.

 

[LittleAH]

You might be right. But I thought a big part of the problem here is lack of rest day working, and is it not the case that the government need to essentially give permission (more negotiating freedom) for that to be resolved satisfactorily?

This has been discussed on previous threads, but essentially ASLEF pulled RDW over 'spare at home' over a year ago. The RWD agreement was lets say very generous because the previous MD back was against the wall. Government have only just recently let a new RDW agreement be offered, but it falls short of the previous agreement - and that lucrative agreement will never be met again. Also I doubt any RDW agreement will be resolved until pay agreements are resolved.

It feels to me like the operators just are not able or willing to give a proper explanation because of the political stance of the government on the ongoing industrial action.

They aren't allowed to.

How is it a "cynical political move" to transfer the money from the "pay shareholders" account to the "pay railway staff" account?

It's painfully obvious. OLR won't solve TPE's issues but get rid of some deadwood Directors, which will most likely happen anyway if First Group are to keep hold of the TPE contract. TPE's issues will take several years to rectify and are exacerbated by TRU and diversionary route knowledge.

 

[43066]

AIUI It’s not sickness, but is 14%. IE 14% nominally productive drivers who are not able to drive for various reasons including sickness, awaiting return to work training, etc. etc. I have a good friend who is a TPE driver, fit as a fiddle, but not driving due to a medical issue.

Makes sense, I suspected it was nonsense! Of course that doesn’t stop the inevitable comments accusing staff of treating sick leave as free extra holiday…

Various bottlenecks apply once people have been off track for a while, eg needing to go out with an instructor for a period. Occupational health usually take a cautious approach to medications and when new meds are prescribed people will often be off track for a period of observation. Those are just examples from a long list of things that can cause delays.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Pleas of victimhood may be a little thin though. The average in TPE was quoted in the Commons Select Committee as being 14%. ONS average for all industries in 2021 (latest figures), so when Covid was worse, 2.2%

As I said higher up, I'm an office worker and if I'm full of cold I can dose up on Lemsip and work from home for the day. I might operate at 70%.

I don't really want my train driver to be dosed up on Day Nurse and feeling like sh!te when we're hurtling along at 100mph.

There are also plenty of medical issues- either confirmed or suspected- where you'd be allowed to drive a desk but not drive a train. I was tested for sleep apnoea (it wasn’t) a few years ago, it took me a couple of months to get an appointment- didn't stop me working in an office, but it would stop me driving a train.

 

[mike57]

Yes, they are seriously loud. Great, isn't it?

I can understand from a rail enthusiast viewpoint yes, but if you live in the houses facing the depot at Scarborough no it isnt, yes I know the railway was there first, but its not so much the volume as the nature of the noise, it just seems to penetrate. Other diesel engined classes have a particular noise, but I suspect its the mix of frequencies that causes the issue rather than the actual volume in the case of 68s. Because its a low frequency component that I think causes the issues traditional noise mitigation measures will not be as effective.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Just because the contract says TOCs shouldn't do unauthorised communications, it doesn't mean they don't. Won't say any more!

I don't think the public spat with ASLEF is serving any of the parties very well.

 

[Carlisle]

Are they? If the policy has indeed changed then that is good news. I'd be surprised if it were true though, cutting back route knowledge in pursuit of false economies is very much DfT policy.

That’s been argued back & forth decades long before DFT.
BR drivers at some depots signed loads of routes whilst some other depots could only sign those relevant to their link & after privatisation Cross Country reintroduced long distance lodging turns & later abolished them, so nobody’s yet discovered the ideal scenario here.

 

[Howardh]

One short delay's down to me (sorry). Got locked in the toilet, the switch couldn't open the door, and no amount of forcing could open it. Pressed the help button, and the driver stoppes at a station and there both he and a guard managed to release me! First time this had happened to me, but sitting in those units before I've noticed the sliding doors get stuck.

Very apologetic and helpful crew by the way!!

 

[Spartacus]

What absolute tosh! I have list more off my route card and traction in the last link change because in managements words "my depot is an 802 depots, we dont have any 185 work"

If they were seriously wanting to change that they would be utilising us while spare to actually go out and relearn those routes. They aren't and any requests to do so gets knocked back!

So i sit spare whe trains are cancelled due to lack of traincrew, i cannot cross cover because management took the routes off my card!

Tosh was great in The Bill.

Look, the situation now is still as lousy as it's been for a while, but there ARE attempts by those who know what they're doing to get it changed, but it's going to be a long term thing.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Well, when training days are put back in our links and we are actively encouraged to re-earn our route knowledge back, 185 work put back on to my depots job cards (and that means with full prep and dispose and not just simply a quick dash from York to Leeds) and the idiots who allowed the knowledge to be lost and come up with the stupid and practically unworkable multiple crew changes and short hops diagrams are brought in to question, then I might believe you. Until then I will continue to sit spare while trains are cancelled.....

 

[philthetube]

I don't really want my train driver to be dosed up on Day Nurse and feeling like sh!te when we're hurtling along at 100mph.

We were not allowed Day Nurse because it contained codeine, not sure if this is still true.

 

[KGX]

TPE are at least reliably useless. 2 hour delay for me today and getting to the destination without using TPE at all. I’m not even going to bother booking on their trains again. I’d rather just change. Scrap the whole operation and save a fortune.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Look, the situation now is still as lousy as it's been for a while, but there ARE attempts by those who know what they're doing to get it changed, but it's going to be a long term thing.

In a meeting with company council yesterday, management confirmed that where a depot does NOT have any booked work over a given route or traction, release from duty will NOT be granted to review or refresh the route.

So, basically if I want to refresh and update my route knowledge for Manchester to Liverpool, I cant because I dont have any booked work over that route.

So whatever this grand recovery plan is, it certainly doesnt involve utilising spare crews to cover the work.

The MDs admittance route retention is a problem wont be addressed while my award winning leader of the year is telling me that I cannot retain my route competency because I am not booked to work that route, let alone the diversions which will be very much needed as it is now for TRU upgrade disruption.

Meanwhile I will continue to sit spare while trains are being cancelled due to a "shortage of traincrew" because I do not sign the route and therefore cannot cover the work as a result. Purely managerial decisions and they are the wrong ones.

 

[irish_rail]

In a meeting with company council yesterday, management confirmed that where a depot does NOT have any booked work over a given route or traction, release from duty will NOT be granted to review or refresh the route.

So, basically if I want to refresh and update my route knowledge for Manchester to Liverpool, I cant because I dont have any booked work over that route.

So whatever this grand recovery plan is, it certainly doesnt involve utilising spare crews to cover the work.

The MDs admittance route retention is a problem wont be addressed while my award winning leader of the year is telling me that I cannot retain my route competency because I am not booked to work that route, let alone the diversions which will be very much needed as it is now for TRU upgrade disruption.

Meanwhile I will continue to sit spare while trains are being cancelled due to a "shortage of traincrew" because I do not sign the route and therefore cannot cover the work as a result. Purely managerial decisions and they are the wrong ones.

This is quite correct though, otherwise there would be a complete mess of staff at a depot with some signing certain routes and others not. The solution is that a depot is allocated a decent amount of routes and traction and then everyone at that depot is required to learn said routes and traction. Having individuals choosing to refresh routes they once did on a case by case basis wouldn't work so well in terms of planning the service. TpE needs to pull its finger out and get all staff at depots re learning lost route knowledge.

 

[Some guy]

This is quite correct though, otherwise there would be a complete mess of staff at a depot with some signing certain routes and others not. The solution is that a depot is allocated a decent amount of routes and traction and then everyone at that depot is required to learn said routes and traction. Having individuals choosing to refresh routes they once did on a case by case basis wouldn't work so well in terms of planning the service. TpE needs to pull its finger out and get all staff at depots re learning lost route knowledge.

Manchester TPE drivers used to sign the entire route to Edinburgh via the West coast they had a turn where they drove all the way from the airport which meant it was rarely cancelled but now it’s a mess they don’t even go past Preston anymore

 

[irish_rail]

Manchester TPE drivers used to sign the entire route to Edinburgh via the West coast they had a turn where they drove all the way from the airport which meant it was rarely cancelled but now it’s a mess they don’t even go past Preston anymore

Exactly. There needs to be a focus on getting traincrew at the extremes doing the distances, so like Manchester to Scotland or Liverpool to Newcastle etc. Tpe seem to prefer to focus its attention on the depots in the middle and this is surely not productive.

 

[Spartacus]

This is quite correct though, otherwise there would be a complete mess of staff at a depot with some signing certain routes and others not. The solution is that a depot is allocated a decent amount of routes and traction and then everyone at that depot is required to learn said routes and traction. Having individuals choosing to refresh routes they once did on a case by case basis wouldn't work so well in terms of planning the service. TpE needs to pull its finger out and get all staff at depots re learning lost route knowledge.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Iskra]

Meanwhile, another day of constant cancellations/part cancellations at an otherwise very busy Sheffield station today.

It would be quite nice if the 'action/recovery plan' could be communicated, so that passengers can understand when or if they will ever get a usable service again, and if not make alternative arrangements.

 

[zwk500]

It would be quite nice if the 'action/recovery plan' could be communicated, so that passengers can understand when or if they will ever get a usable service again, and if not make alternative ararrangements.

That requires TPE to know what the plan is, and for the DfT and TPE to be ready to be held publicly accountable for the timescales they announce. The current preference among government is to commit to as vague a promise as possible so that anything can be claimed as meeting that goal, however transparent that strategy may be.