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Transpennine Express boss apologises for poor services (BBC)

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VauxhallNova

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Agree.

But do you think the company who got it into the current mess (see Clarence Yard's post above) should be given a low risk contract to make millions in future profits?
 
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Clarence Yard

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I have no problem with them getting a new contract because the DfT have not done TPE many favours since they effectively took over in March 2020. Their stewardship of the TOCs (not just with TPE) since then has been nothing short of woeful.

Whatever happened before March 2020 is contractually irrelevant. The DfT took over TPE in March 2020 knowing what the issues were and so took money off FG to finish the franchise. Since then they haven’t done enough, including giving TPE enough money to enable them to sort out the big structural issues in the train crew set up.

But the question is moot because the chances of FG getting a new contract for TPE now must be nearly nil.
 

Facing Back

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Agree.

But do you think the company who got it into the current mess (see Clarence Yard's post above) should be given a low risk contract to make millions in future profits?
Personally, I really don't care that they make 2% with about half at risk. Those are the terms of the NRC. I can see why, in an emergency they were offered as a pragmatic short term solution. I would like to see them replaced with a more appropriate contract as soon as is sensible where there is a sensible balance of risk and reward with the right incentives in place. Whether that should happen now or later I don't know, but I don't think the relatively trivial management fee should be the factor which forces the government one way or the other.
 

VauxhallNova

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I wonder if anyone really knew the extent of the issues. There was a committed obligation in the 2016 franchise agreement that reads:

26. Driver resourcing levels

26.1 The Franchisee shall, with the Management Accounts to be provided in relation to the penultimate Reporting Period of the previous Franchisee Year pursuant to paragraph 3.2 of Schedule 13 (Information and Industry Initiatives) notify the Secretary of State of its calculated Establishment Requirement for the following Franchisee Year. The Franchisee shall notify the Secretary of State of the Establishment Requirement for the first Franchisee Year at least four weeks prior to the Start Date.

26.2 During each period of 12 consecutive months, the Franchisee shall employ such numbers of qualified Train Drivers such that the Establishment Requirement, notified to the Secretary of State pursuant to paragraph 26.1 and applicable to the relevant Franchisee Year, shall be exceeded on a moving annual average basis by at least [redacted]



I wonder what the redacted number was?
 

Starmill

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Agree.

But do you think the company who got it into the current mess (see Clarence Yard's post above) should be given a low risk contract to make millions in future profits?
Ultimately, the fee which FG receives and remits to profits is a tiny proportion of the cost of the operation. Realistically, there won't be any meaningful savings left out of it after the OLR's administrative costs are taken into account. Certainly there will be no additional funds made available for TPE operations if and when it goes to OLR. There will however be some handover costs.

You could of course put forward the argument that on 'moral authority' it is better to deprive FG of that little bit of profit long-term even if there is no efficiency to be gained from doing so. I make no comment either way on that argument.
 

VauxhallNova

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GWR are currently making about £30m a year.

The size of the operation is slightly less relevant if you aren't taking any revenue or cost risk, I would have thought.

The management fee is most likely based on the complexity of the management skill needed.

And quite a lot of skill is going to be needed to find a way out of the mess that has been created!
 

Watershed

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TPE were unlucky with the timing of Covid, but all of TPE's woes can be traced back to the unfathomable decision to order and implement three entirely different new types of train at exactly the same time.

I still don't understand what they were thinking.
I don't think all of TPE's woes can be traced back to that. It certainly didn't help, but even on routes where all the crew sign the appropriate traction, e.g. Hull, South route (mostly) and Anglo Scot, there are still huge levels of cancellations.

With 20/20 hindsight, of course the decision to order three different fleets was a huge mistake. But it couldn't have been known at the time just how badly it would go wrong, and if FirstGroup hadn't have bid that, the franchise would just have been won by someone else who bid roughly the same - the DfT specification required such a quick speed of introduction (irony of ironies...) that it didn't allow for one uniform 80x order.

I just fear that the Mk5s will go in May, with the mass extinction of other marginal/not fully introduced fleets such as the 769s, Castle Class HSTs and 180s. All the money wasted on that program will then be for naught.

The current unreliability can almost all be traced back to the DfT though. They're refusing to let TPE put an acceptable pay or RDW deal on the table, or to reduce the timetable to match the non-RDW resources.
 

VauxhallNova

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The 125mph capability was only needed for the extra ECML paths (not specified in the ITT), and the ITT could have been fulfilled with 100mph stock.

There was no specification of the 802 fleet and I think someone has noted before (may have been you!) the Hitachi stock is much more expensive.

The net revenue of having extra ECML paths must have outweighed the extra cost, leading to multiple fleet orders as the Dec 2018 deadline for capacity couldn't be met with 802s.

In many ways it's those extra ECML paths as well as the multiple stock types that caused the pileup of driver training. Without the need to expand the timetable in Dec 2019 (and generate that extra revenue) they could have taken their time a bit more.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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The 125mph capability was only needed for the extra ECML paths (not specified in the ITT), and the ITT could have been fulfilled with 100mph stock.

There was no specification of the 802 fleet and I think someone has noted before (may have been you!) the Hitachi stock is much more expensive.
Hitachi stock provided through the agility trains conduit is expensive but not the fleets that were ordered direct by operator/rosco mechanisms.
 

Greybeard33

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With 20/20 hindsight, of course the decision to order three different fleets was a huge mistake. But it couldn't have been known at the time just how badly it would go wrong, and if FirstGroup hadn't have bid that, the franchise would just have been won by someone else who bid roughly the same - the DfT specification required such a quick speed of introduction (irony of ironies...) that it didn't allow for one uniform 80x order.
Not sure that is entirely correct. IIRC the 2015 ITT was written so as to permit the use of loco hauled 442s to meet the near term capacity requirements, rather than requiring an all new fleet.

But we do not know the details of the failed franchise bids, so it is not possible to assess the extent of DfT's complicity in saddling the franchise with three different fleets of new trains.
 

Starmill

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IIRC the 2015 ITT was written so as to permit the use of loco hauled 442s to meet the near term capacity requirements, rather than requiring an all new fleet.
Of course, trying to actually use that specific solution would also have been a total disaster. It was a terrible idea to try and continue using them at SWR from the first also, and TPE wouldn't have been any better. Also the use of the mark 3 sets that had been in the 'Pretendolino' previously was also a pretty poor strategy.

However one looks at it, while obviously current delivery at TPE is inexcusably poor, perhaps it has at least contributed to the important lesson to let go of life expired rolling stock that the 769s and 230s have so aptly demonstrated.
 

Facing Back

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Of course, trying to actually use that specific solution would also have been a total disaster. It was a terrible idea to try and continue using them at SWR from the first also, and TPE wouldn't have been any better. Also the use of the mark 3 sets that had been in the 'Pretendolino' previously was also a pretty poor strategy.

However one looks at it, while obviously current delivery at TPE is inexcusably poor, perhaps it has at least contributed to the important lesson to let go of life expired rolling stock that the 769s and 230s have so aptly demonstrated.
What is a pretendolino?
 

CE142

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About time! TPE have been awful for years, they hid behind Northern when Arriva were getting all the ****, then they hid behind Avanti West Coast... Now,everyone is beginning to realise that they are the worst of a bad bunch and finally people are beginning to see how awful First Group are, in fact you can go back to the days of FNW to see how bad First Group really are.

In over 30 years on the Iron Road they are miles ahead of everyone as the worst lot that I have been employed by on the Railway.
 

CAF397

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Also the use of the mark 3 sets that had been in the 'Pretendolino' previously was also a pretty poor strategy.
Certainly not defending them here, but the theory behind the use of the Mark 3s was to get the drivers trained on Class 68s hauling coaches whilst the Mark 5a coaches were under construction.

Theory being, once delivered, a quick conversion from Mark 3 to Mark 5a and the 68/Mk 5a trains would've been introduced.

We know what happened though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What is a pretendolino?
A nickname for the Mark 3 coaches painted in the red and silver Virgin Trains livery.

It had the livery of a Pendolino, so was called the Pretendolino.
 

dk1

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A nickname for the Mark 3 coaches painted in the red and silver Virgin Trains livery.

It had the livery of a Pendolino, so was called the Pretendolino.
Spent a large amount of time hired to GA on the Norwich route. Couldn’t believe it when we secured that deal. Some are quietly rotting away in Vauxhall Carriage sidings in Great Yarmouth.
 

RPI

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I do feel for Matt Golton as he is someone I met many times when he was at GWR, he is genuinely a good bloke and most of all is an actual proper railwayman, which is becoming a rarity these days, particularly in senior roles. When he worked within the projects team he managed to get a lot of real positive changes into GWR/FGW at the time.
 

CAF397

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If TPE do go into the OLR, then hopefully Matthew Golton would be kept on like David Horne was with LNER.

The mess that TPE is in is not down to him, and he has not had the freedom of other MDs due to the DfT restrictions.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I have no problem with them getting a new contract because the DfT have not done TPE many favours since they effectively took over in March 2020. Their stewardship of the TOCs (not just with TPE) since then has been nothing short of woeful.
...
But the question is moot because the chances of FG getting a new contract for TPE now must be nearly nil.
The way things are tilting, FG (with TI) looks likely to retain an improving Avanti, but lose TPE to OLR who could be told to merge it with Northern.
FG would probably be happy to give up the TPE treadmill, but retain the long-term ICWC/HS2 prospect.

HMG won't want to take over TPE while someone is there to take the flack, so timing is important.
May also happens to be local elections time - in the run-up it would be a good moment to demonstrate government action. ;)
Merging with Northern would conveniently blur all the comparisons with the past, for both operations.
It might always have happened under GBR anyway (maybe this would be a dry run for the real GBR, whenever/if it comes).
Being fleet director for a merged Northern + TPE operation would be a bit of a challenge...
 

dk1

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I do feel for Matt Golton as he is someone I met many times when he was at GWR, he is genuinely a good bloke and most of all is an actual proper railwayman, which is becoming a rarity these days, particularly in senior roles. When he worked within the projects team he managed to get a lot of real positive changes into GWR/FGW at the time.

You wouldn’t think he’d want anything to do with TPE being a proper railwayman. They’ve always come across as rotten to the core to me right from the outset.
 

Roast Veg

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The way things are tilting, FG (with TI) looks likely to retain an improving Avanti, but lose TPE to OLR who could be told to merge it with Northern.
I assume there's been no official suggestion about a merger between the two, and this is just speculative? Beyond managerial positions, there's very little cash to be saved by bringing these two together now, and the brands would likely remain to distinguish the different levels of service.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I assume there's been no official suggestion about a merger between the two, and this is just speculative? Beyond managerial positions, there's very little cash to be saved by bringing these two together now, and the brands would likely remain to distinguish the different levels of service.
The rail minister himself (Huw Merriman) said that a merger was a possibility during his evidence to the Transport Select Committee recently.
The context was that the spotlight over poor performance and contract renewal had moved from Avanti to TPE.
 

Bletchleyite

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You wouldn’t think he’d want anything to do with TPE being a proper railwayman. They’ve always come across as rotten to the core to me right from the outset.

From a passenger's point of view TPE have had a bad culture for years. Search back and you'll find comments from me like the rude, clipped original 185 autoannouncer being wholly in keeping with the feel of the whole operation. But it has got worse.

On the other hand I'm not sure Northern is that great either.
 

dk1

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From a passenger's point of view TPE have had a bad culture for years. Search back and you'll find comments from me like the rude, clipped original 185 autoannouncer being wholly in keeping with the feel of the whole operation. But it has got worse.

On the other hand I'm not sure Northern is that great either.

Quite agree. Thought that was one of the reasons they split last time. The difference across the Pennines with Northern is often very noticeable but then that’s down to differing traincrew agreements & that will not change. It just seems that the industrial relations are always tense with these franchises & it’s been reported many times over the years of a heavy handed attitude from management that inflates this.
 

12LDA28C

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let go of life expired rolling stock that the 769s and 230s have so aptly demonstrated.

Passengers on the Marston Vale line eventually had a pretty decent service before Vivarail went bust, I would say you're doing the staff who worked on the project a pretty big disservice with that statement but that's rather off-topic.
 

Greybeard33

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From a passenger's point of view TPE have had a bad culture for years. Search back and you'll find comments from me like the rude, clipped original 185 autoannouncer being wholly in keeping with the feel of the whole operation. But it has got worse.

On the other hand I'm not sure Northern is that great either.
Even several years ago, I experienced an aggressive and arrogant response from TPE "Customer Services" to Delay Repay claims (I had to escalate one to Transport Focus before they eventually backed down). In the same era Northern was generous with offers of free tickets for two people to travel anywhere on their network over two days, as an alternative option to a cash repayment of only a few pounds.
 

Grumpy Git

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If the attitude of the TPE platform staff ‘gaggle’ I’ve encountered at Manchester Airport are anything to go by, (on more than one occasion), the whole operation is rotten.
 

td97

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What, Northern as the reliable trains?
Indeed. PPM recently in the high 80s/low 90% range. No "short notice change to the timetable" malpractice anymore on the west side too. Zero cancellations currently listed on their Journeycheck, which is quite unusual for a Sunday.
I'm assuming rest day work (guards) and Sunday overtime (drivers) is highly desirable to make up for lost earnings due to strikes by both parties, which at least partly explains their current good run of performance.
 

Frankfurt

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Indeed. PPM recently in the high 80s/low 90% range. No "short notice change to the timetable" malpractice anymore on the west side too. Zero cancellations currently listed on their Journeycheck, which is quite unusual for a Sunday.
I'm assuming rest day work (guards) and Sunday overtime (drivers) is highly desirable to make up for lost earnings due to strikes by both parties, which at least partly explains their current good run of performance.

It will be because they run very few trains on a Sunday, even fewer today due to engineering works.

There'll be plenty of drivers sat around all depots twiddling their thumbs as the company runs trains based on the small number of guards who are committed to work on a given Sunday. They could run alot more if they utilised guards who have their names down to work overtime. (Sundays are inside for all drivers).
 
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