Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Mcr Warrior]

It was cancelled at 21:11 the night before

How exactly was that ascertained?

 

[Fokx]

How exactly was that ascertained?

Because when it’s input into the system and logged as cancelled by control, appearing in both journey planners and Tpe website, the relevant staff (traincrew in my case) receive a time stamped email noting the cancellation or service changes.

All I have to do is search the headcode in my email.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==

I assume there is some sort of industry system which keeps records of this, which you have taken that information from?

If so, why on earth isn't it open to the public and widely accessible to passengers? It seems as if the TOCs literally want passengers to sit in front of their computer screen in the late evening, eagerly refreshing the page to see exactly what the state is at precisely 22:00:00.

Whatever it is I don’t have physical access to it myself, but I do receive all notifications of changes to timetable, formations, alternations and line problems through it (via email).

 

[JD2168]

What a total & utter mess. At times like these people will be looking at saving money so looking at using public transport. It is just going to send more & more people to their cars. Also this is half term week so some families could have used the Train service to make a day out for themselves. This level of non running is going to put people off now & throughout future months & years.

As they can’t seem to run the current service level from Manchester to Cleethorpes then what hope when it is extended to Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Killingworth]

What a total & utter mess. At times like these people will be looking at saving money so looking at using public transport. It is just going to send more & more people to their cars. Also this is half term week so some families could have used the Train service to make a day out for themselves. This level of non running is going to put people off now & throughout future months & years.

As they can’t seem to run the current service level from Manchester to Cleethorpes then what hope when it is extended to Liverpool Lime Street.

Close to zero?

 

[flymo]

Surely if you have an advance ticket, or any ticket with/without reservation, irrespective of whether the journey is cancelled at 2200 or 1000 then if your scheduled and possibly reserved journey is delayed then you can claim delay repay? Do they just fob people off and expect them to go away ? Probably.
On Twitter today a guy on a TPE train said his train was cancelled and he got a refund minus an admin fee. Doesn't sound like delay repay to me rather a conventional refund.
Could be the whole delay repay system needs overhauled as its getting ridiculous now.
To be honest in the past 10 journeys involving TPE, probably 6 have had claims and all approved.
Tomorrow I am going to try Scarborough to Newcastle using the bus via Middlesbrough. Going to see how it works as totally fed up to the back teeth with TPE. can;t take the constant threat of cancellations.

 

[northernchris]

TPE made it on to Look North tonight, over the last 4 weeks 700 out of 7500 TPE services were cancelled (assuming this includes the day before cancellations) with 21% of services cancelled in August. Tracy Brabin believes the disruption is down to a lack of drivers and poor management but didn't offer any solutions.

 

[DoubleO]

TPE made it on to Look North tonight, over the last 4 weeks 700 out of 7500 TPE services were cancelled (assuming this includes the day before cancellations) with 21% of services cancelled in August. Tracy Brabin believes the disruption is down to a lack of drivers and poor management but didn't offer any solutions.

That's only approx. 25 per day, I can't see that including the services cancelled by 10pm the night before as they are regularly running at 60-70 per day....

 

[flymo]

TPE made it on to Look North tonight, over the last 4 weeks 700 out of 7500 TPE services were cancelled (assuming this includes the day before cancellations) with 21% of services cancelled in August. Tracy Brabin believes the disruption is down to a lack of drivers and poor management but didn't offer any solutions.

In my tweets to TPE I did add a hashtag for Look North so they were aware of these consecutive cancellations on the Scarborough line (if they check Tweets of course), doubt this was the reason it was included today but glad the cancellations are getting more publicity.

 

[Andyh82]

In my tweets to TPE I did add a hashtag for Look North so they were aware of these consecutive cancellations on the Scarborough line (if they check Tweets of course), doubt this was the reason it was included today but glad the cancellations are getting more publicity.

It was also covered yesterday as apparently the metro mayors in the north have joined forces and sent a letter to the DfT to demand action

Government help needed over rail 'chaos' - northern mayors

North of England leaders say the government must "haul operators to the table to sort out the mess".

www.bbc.co.uk

They also covered it on Calendar on ITV, although they messed it up, brought Northern into it, showed library pictures of Northern trains and asked people in Barnsley what they thought of the service

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's very much a Catch 22 at the moment.

It is completely impossible to run any sort of normal service without driver rest day working. Existing Drivers need releasing for training, medicals, assessments and a whole host of things, before you take in to account sickness and annual leave. Unless you have something like 300% spare coverage, which is unrealistic, you will always need some level of rest day working. The problem is the DfT won't authorise rest day working rates that meet Aslef's aspirations. So there is no driver rest day working.

Add in the fact that drivers are leaving the company (for various reasons) quicker than they can be replaced and you are in mess.

And then it gets even worse when the service is thinned out because you can't train new drivers entirely in a classroom, they need to drive trains, route learn etc. If the trains aren't running then they can't be out there driving them getting qualified. The more trains you withdraw the longer it takes for the trainees to get the experience required to pass out. And so it is just a vicious circle.

And all the calls to strip First Group of the contract and give it someone else, even OLR, won't achieve anything. Whoever runs it will still have the same number of drivers and the same issues will continue. If anything it works better for the DfT to leave it with First - the DfT can pretend it's nothing to do with them and stand at a distance pretending they aren't involved.

 

[northernchris]

That's only approx. 25 per day, I can't see that including the services cancelled by 10pm the night before as they are regularly running at 60-70 per day....

Fair point!

In my tweets to TPE I did add a hashtag for Look North so they were aware of these consecutive cancellations on the Scarborough line (if they check Tweets of course), doubt this was the reason it was included today but glad the cancellations are getting more publicity.

Indeed, the more publicity this gets the more the Government may give TPE some leeway to address the issues

They also covered it on Calendar on ITV, although they messed it up, brought Northern into it, showed library pictures of Northern trains and asked people in Barnsley what they thought of the service

I wouldn't expect anything less from ITV

 

[LittleAH]

If TPE goes to OLR and the DfT runs it, can't they get involved? TPE clearly can't run a railway by themselves, and when a company fails like that surely the govt has to get involved.

It wouldn't make a difference. Same thing would be happening under OLR.

I think the major problem is that there appears to be no penalty for failure. It seems that by cancelling trains the day before TPE avoid the need to pay delay repay, and still keep the money they are paid to run the trains, which comes from taxpayers.

To be honest in any other industry TPE would be insolvent and out of business if they offered the level of service that they offer on their rail routes

How can you penalise something when the organisation doing the penalising are one of the major causes of the current situation?

 

[Kite159]

I can see at some point, TPE will have to bring in an emergency timetable with services cut right back, similar to Avanti, just to get rid of the need to have overtime to run a service.

Also to look at the diagrams so using an example from earlier in the thread that a Liverpool - Newcastle service will have 4 drivers, to have something like that with only 2 drivers to reduce the risk of "there is no driver for York - Newcastle, we will cancel it outright rather than running it to York"

Getting rid of First Group won't resolve anything in the short term. I can't see another company wanting to take over, so it will go to the OLR, assuming they can take on more work. But even having the OLR running the show isn't the golden whistle, just look at Northern whom can be just as bad on certain routes.

 

[VauxhallNova]

But with all the issues seen with driver diagramming and route knowledge, I wonder if people think it's best that First keep it? There's 8 years of Transpennine Route Upgrade work coming, with lots of timetable changes along the way.

 

[M60lad]

Why do some TPE services on the South route start/terminate at Medowhall and not Sheffield during any disruptions? I always thought staff changeovers were done at Sheffield so why are some done at Meadowhall?

 

[Killingworth]

Why do some TPE services on the South route start/terminate at Medowhall and not Sheffield during any disruptions? I always thought staff changeovers were done at Sheffield so why are some done at Meadowhall?

Infuriating. The train will start and finish in Sheffield but stable between Platforms 5 and 6 out of reach for passengers. It will arrive or leave there at about the normal time but platform announcements may be saying it's cancelled and to get the Northern service to Adwick for Doncaster.

A few months ago I saw one run into Sheffield and up to Dore before reversing there. It seems there's not an easy option for a reversal within the Sheffield station confines and allow use of platforms. The Dore option adds too much congestion down the crowded Sheaf Valley.

 

[_toommm_]

Why do some TPE services on the South route start/terminate at Medowhall and not Sheffield during any disruptions? I always thought staff changeovers were done at Sheffield so why are some done at Meadowhall?

I’ve been told further up thread that it’s because the drivers and guards don’t want to work the overtime to come in early and shunt it from one of the sidings into the platform, so it’ll go straight to Meadowhall and start in service there (and vice versa on the return).

EDIT: I’ve found the post I’ve referenced:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2022 ==

That usually happens when they run ECS directly to/from the Sheffield station sidings. In turn, that's usually because the previous/following driver is unavailable, and there's no room to keep the set in one of the platforms whilst it awaits its next working.

As for why such services can't run into a platform and then shunt to/from the sidings, in many cases it's because the driver has refused to extend their shift (book on earlier/off later), or shorten their break, to do so. Which they're entitled to do and amidst the current IR climate, some are choosing to do.

It's far from ideal, to put it mildly.

 

[GordonT]

I’ve been told further up thread that it’s because the drivers and guards don’t want to work the overtime to come in early and shunt it from one of the sidings into the platform, so it’ll go straight to Meadowhall and start in service there (and vice versa on the return).

EDIT: I’ve found the post I’ve referenced:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2022 ==

This way madness lies!

 

[irish_rail]

Also to look at the diagrams so using an example from earlier in the thread that a Liverpool - Newcastle service will have 4 drivers, to have something like that with only 2 drivers to reduce the risk of "there is no driver for York - Newcastle, we will cancel it outright rather than running it to York"

Getting rid of First Group won't resolve anything in the short term. I can't see another company wanting to take over, so it will go to the OLR, assuming they can take on more work. But even having the OLR running the show isn't the golden whistle, just look at Northern whom can be just as bad on certain roroutes.

First bit is spot on right. Its a real bugbear of mine when long trips are split up into numerous drivers and I know for a fact resource controllers (on GWR at least) despise it.

However, it IS First group at fault for this as it is very much a First group policy to reduce driver route knowledge as much as possible. The policy is a clear failure wherever it is used (on my patch Plymouth drivers losing Taunton to Bristol causes countless delays when trains can't be diverted) and yet First group seem to persist with this questionable policy.

The answer, is to get traincrew route cards much bigger again, as they were a few years ago. No reason why a Liverpool driver shouldn't be driving to Newcastle and back in a shift instead of two trips to Manchester.

 

[Bantamzen]

What an appalling mess, and sadly is just a reflection of just how bad the railways are becoming in this country. A combination of ridiculous political gesturing, bad management and unions that seem stuck in the 1980s leaves the passengers with increasingly no choice but to pay over the odds for a s*** service, or find an alternative. I used to use TPE quite a lot pre-covid, I've used them just twice since. I now use Northern to get across the Pennines when I need to, and I even found myself looking for National Express options for when I travel to Cheshire to see family. If I were a company like Flixbus I'd be eyeing up the trans-Pennine routes with eagerness, it's ripe for some company to put real pressure on TPE.

 

[387star]

DIs jacking the job in too

 

[43066]

I’ve been told further up thread that it’s because the drivers and guards don’t want to work the overtime to come in early and shunt it from one of the sidings into the platform, so it’ll go straight to Meadowhall and start in service there (and vice versa on the return).

Well, not really. It’s because the relevant driver (ie the person diagrammed to do whatever needs doing) isn’t present, or perhaps doesn’t exist because they don’t have enough drivers in the first place….

This way madness lies!

I say good for them and I’d do exactly the same in their position.

After getting up at 0230, working for nine or ten hours, God forbid people might want to knock off on time, rather than giving up their free time to bail out their incompetent employer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2022 ==

The answer, is to get traincrew route cards much bigger again, as they were a few years ago. No reason why a Liverpool driver shouldn't be driving to Newcastle and back in a shift instead of two trips to Manchester.

This will require more drivers, so unlikely ever to happen. The trend seems to be for smaller and smaller route cards. That’s less of an issue where drivers can drive the entire route, the issue with TPE (and presumably most XC depots given their network size) seems to be ridiculous numbers of crew changes en route.

 

[Clarence Yard]

First bit is spot on right. Its a real bugbear of mine when long trips are split up into numerous drivers and I know for a fact resource controllers (on GWR at least) despise it.

However, it IS First group at fault for this as it is very much a First group policy to reduce driver route knowledge as much as possible. The policy is a clear failure wherever it is used (on my patch Plymouth drivers losing Taunton to Bristol causes countless delays when trains can't be diverted) and yet First group seem to persist with this questionable policy.

The answer, is to get traincrew route cards much bigger again, as they were a few years ago. No reason why a Liverpool driver shouldn't be driving to Newcastle and back in a shift instead of two trips to Manchester.

It isn’t just FG, it has become fashionable in most of the industry. It really does not work and when the service gets disrupted, it magnifies the disruptive effect. I’m not even sure it is cost effective in the longer term.

The problem for TPE is that they can’t just rip up the diagram and route knowledge structure and start again. That relies on the DfT saying yes to the money and we all know where they are with that at the moment.

 

[bravesirrobin]

This point has been debated further up the thread, I personally havent made a claim under those circumstances, I would be interested to hear from others on it

I received delay repay for my advance ticket on the cancelled 0616 Haymarket to Manchester Airport on 19 Nov. I did have to submit a claim for it -- the return journey on the 24th was automatically refunded after terminating short at Carlisle.

 

[_toommm_]

Well, not really. It’s because the relevant driver (ie the person diagrammed to do whatever needs doing) isn’t present, or perhaps doesn’t exist because they don’t have enough drivers in the first place….

Just relaying what I was told on here really.

 

[Killingworth]

I’ve been told further up thread that it’s because the drivers and guards don’t want to work the overtime to come in early and shunt it from one of the sidings into the platform, so it’ll go straight to Meadowhall and start in service there (and vice versa on the return).

EDIT: I’ve found the post I’ve referenced:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2022 ==

That may be compounded by Controllers reluctance to plan a movement that may require a crew member to work beyond contracted hours which might leave an abandoned train in a required platform.

 

[irish_rail]

It isn’t just FG, it has become fashionable in most of the industry. It really does not work and when the service gets disrupted, it magnifies the disruptive effect. I’m not even sure it is cost effective in the longer term.

The problem for TPE is that they can’t just rip up the diagram and route knowledge structure and start again. That relies on the DfT saying yes to the money and we all know where they are with that at the moment.

Pretty hard to argue with this guy.....

 

[Ianigsy]

When the through Newcastle-Liverpool service resumed a few years ago, it was very noticeable on the teatime service that I took regularly from Leeds to Lime Street that the train crew were Geordies. At the time I thought it was a massive improvement on the previous situation where the conductor would change at Oxford Road or Piccadilly- more often than not, one ticket check would be done after Warrington and another on leaving Piccadilly so you’d have two within about 20 minutes on a journey between two barriered stations.

But yes, I don’t see anything to be gained by taking the franchise back now. It’s not much of an incentive to the people tasked with recovering the service to threaten their job security regardless of the outcome.

 

[VauxhallNova]

So the management have dug this hole over the last few years, and are now expecting DfT to dig them out of it.

The amazing trick they've pulled is getting Andy Burnham and others to say that the lack of Rest Day Work is the cause of the issue.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I travelled from Sheffield to Stalybridge today and was tempted to give Transpennine the benefit of the doubt when not only did the 1011 Sheffield - Manchester actually run but it had 6 coaches! We were delayed 15 minutes at Sheffield due to our driver having to take a taxi from Manchester to Sheffield because Transpennine had cancelled the train he was supposed to be travelling in on but a 15 minute delay on TPE is just about tolerable by their dismal standards.

But on the return, oh dear! The 1818 cancelled, the 1918 eventually departed at 1954 when the driver could finally be bothered to drag himself away from the rest room.

On arrival in Sheffield I checked the screens and found those poor souls trying to make it to Manchester were stuffed. The screens showed that TPE had cancelled the 2111 to Manchester and were advising their passengers to get the 2114 Northern stopper, without bothering to check that it was also cancelled! Truly pathetic.