Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Watershed]

I am sure many passengers with conventional non rover tickets will be claiming back their fares.

You can, too.

 

[John Luxton]

You can, too.

Even with a rover ticket?

How do you do that had a number of journeys disrupted including a couple of Northern ones.

However, being a rover and having all the relevant timetables downloaded on my phone I just revised my itinerary.

To be honest it seems a bit penny pinching given I have certainly clocked up the miles this past week on a £66 rail card discounted ticket.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm glad I got to enjoy the brief Renaissance of TPE after the new and longer trains had come in, but before the latest setbacks.

 

[Watershed]

Even with a rover ticket?

How do you do that had a number of journeys disrupted including a couple of Northern ones.

However, being a rover and having all the relevant timetables downloaded on my phone I just revised my itinerary.

To be honest it seems a bit penny pinching given I have certainly clocked up the miles this past week on a £66 rail card discounted ticket.

Yes. You just claim as per normal and enter 'rover' as the ticket type (or return, if it doesn't have a rover/other option).

The DfT's penny pinching is precisely what's behind this mess!

 

[VauxhallNova]

Why so you think the DfT's approach is having such an impact on TPE? Aren't all operators subject to the same cost control measures?

TPE are only running 74% of the trains they were pre-Covid. Only CrossCountry and Avanti are running lower ratios, at about 68% (data taken from ORR table 3103).

 

[mmh]

I'm afraid you will simply have to live with it until further notice.....it's only going to get worse when drivers strike action kicks in

Which driver strike action is this?

 

[TUC]

I'm afraid you will simply have to live with it until further notice.....it's only going to get worse when drivers strike action kicks in

No, let's not live with it. Let's as many as possible as us find long term alternatives. Let's act like customers and exercise normal commercial pressure on the rail industry by damaging its business until it gets its act together.

 

[Efini92]

Which driver strike action is this?

All the ones that haven’t had pay rises.

 

[al78]

No, let's not live with it. Let's as many as possible as us find long term alternatives. Let's act like customers and exercise normal commercial pressure on the rail industry by damaging its business until it gets its act together.

How do you do that? When it comes to transport, people have to travel so it is not easy or practical to stop using the trains (unless you know another method of damaging its business than boycotting it). In a similar way, motorists can't drive the cost of fuel down by using their cars less because they have to use their cars for essential journeys, and you can't suddenly make big changes to your life to significantly reduce the need to drive so often, which is why the increased cost of living has been labelled a crisis.

 

[td97]

The fact Northern are now in a position to assist TPE and add extra capacity due to TPE's failings truly demonstrates what a shambolic operation TPE is.
Factors like Northern providing 6-carriage Hope Valley weekend services, 4-carriage Leeds-Manchester Calder Valley services, ticket acceptance from Manchester Airport/Piccadilly/Oxford Rd to Preston for cancelled TPE Scottish services, etc.

 

[Iskra]

The fact Northern are now in a position to assist TPE and add extra capacity due to TPE's failings truly demonstrates what a shambolic operation TPE is.
Factors like Northern providing 6-carriage Hope Valley weekend services, 4-carriage Leeds-Manchester Calder Valley services, ticket acceptance from Manchester Airport/Piccadilly/Oxford Rd to Preston for cancelled TPE Scottish services, etc.

Maybe time to resurrect Northern Connect and bin off TP altogether

 

[Carlisle]

The fact Northern are now in a position to assist TPE and add extra capacity due to TPE's failings truly demonstrates what a shambolic operation TPE is.

Yet just prior to Covid it was claimed on here traincrew were leaving Scotrail for the better wages & conditions at TPE

 

[Some guy]

Yet just prior to Covid it was claimed on here traincrew were leaving Scotrail for the better wages & conditions at TPE

Conditions at the time which were quite good especially compared to scotrail but TPE have been offered absolutely nothing and if the company/ DFT can’t be bothered to sort out all the problems the staff aren’t going to bother either

 

[Killingworth]

The fact Northern are now in a position to assist TPE and add extra capacity due to TPE's failings truly demonstrates what a shambolic operation TPE is.
Factors like Northern providing 6-carriage Hope Valley weekend services, 4-carriage Leeds-Manchester Calder Valley services, ticket acceptance from Manchester Airport/Piccadilly/Oxford Rd to Preston for cancelled TPE Scottish services, etc.

It would be great if Northern operated the 6 coach Hope Valley stoppers when all the TPE services were missing but the railway isn't as joined up as that. Northern can't get 6 car trains into their regular Sheffield platforms 2C (2 car) or 7 (5 car) so have to take what's available. So far they've managed a few, but not all, services at weekends when more platform space is free and leisure demand is greatest. It's a bit hit and miss.

On Friday with the TPE 11.11 from Sheffield not running in the current timetable the Northern 11.14 was cancelled. The 4 car East Midlands Norwich - Liverpool 11.43 left Sheffield 14 minutes late at 11.57. The TPE 12.11 was cancelled at Sheffield. Northern's 2 car 12.14 departure was then 11 minutes late into 2C at Sheffield at 12.16 but managed to get away only 8 minutes down thanks to excellent actions of crew and platform staff. The train was rammed full.

As a leisure user I'd be happy to have a regular half hourly reliable 4 car stopping service between Manchester and Sheffield, not least because Northern's Advance fare can be a quarter of a TP single ticket. For me an extra 20 minutes on a relatively short and occasional journey is OK.

Reliability is the key. Leaving Covid and all the industrial relations issues aside, these TPE longer distance fast services are far too often unreliable - seemingly all of them.

 

[mike57]

I have another day visit to the NW tomorrow, I hope it is more pleasent than last weeks miserable journey which triggered this thread, however reading the responses here I dont hold out much hope.

There are a range of opinions and suggestion as to the causes and solutions to the current woes, but the one thing that is obvious is that my journey last Wednesday is typical, and for whatever reason TPE are not delivering even the current reduced timetable.

Two things that strike me about all this:

Following the May 2018 problems both Northern and TPE were badly affected. Northern have made progress, no they are not perfect, but are better than they were 4 years ago. TPE on the other hand have gone from crisis to crisis, and their reliability is still unacceptable.

Route improvements whilst welcome are not an immediate solution to current problems. What is needed now is a properly resourced timetable with enough 'slack' that minor disruption doesn't result in a complete meltdown. Route knowledge needs to be brought up to the point it was a few years ago. Traction knowledge is another problem, 3 different types of traction on TPE north. Industrial action, which is regretable seems to be a symptom of the wider problems.

One question I would like to know the answer to: What proportion of TPE income comes from fares and what comes from subsidies?

 

[childwallblues]

Is the lack of crew problem being caused by crews not being trained on certain types of train?

 

[Killingworth]

Hourly South Pennine reduced to occasional/sporadic today.. 10.09 from Sheffield is followed by the 17.09. Basically commuting times only, the rest withdrawn.

Only 8 in each direction across the core, seemingly cancelled overnight wrecking many journey plans.

Where does someone with a ticket booked on a cancelled train get compensation? Delay repay won't cover it?

 

[mike57]

10.09 from Sheffield is followed by the 17.09

And judging by the fact that the cancelled journeys are not in RTT at all, as opposed to the more usual 'Cancel' this is a pre-planned service reduction

 

[Killingworth]

And judging by the fact that the cancelled journeys are not in RTT at all, as opposed to the more usual 'Cancel' this is a pre-planned service reduction

An amazing list of short notice cancellations today. Almost as many missing as running, see attached.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where does someone with a ticket booked on a cancelled train get compensation? Delay repay won't cover it?

Would have thought you'd be entitled to a full refund from the ticket retailer, in the event of such a cancellation and the passenger not travelling.

 

[sjpowermac]

As far as I know, the TPE conductors were not on strike Sunday 12.06.2022 and yet the TPE timetable seems to have been the strike one.

Anyone any offers as to why?

 

[Watershed]

As far as I know, the TPE conductors were not on strike Sunday 12.06.2022 and yet the TPE timetable seems to have been the strike one.

Anyone any offers as to why?

Not all industrial action takes the form of a strike. The timetable in place was slightly more intensive than the strike timetable of the last 16 odd Sundays, and was fairly reliably operated (by contrast to most weekdays/Saturdays!). Whilst certainly very disappointing, unless and until all of the IR issues are sorted out, I would anticipate this being the Sunday timetable for the foreseeable future.

 

[class397tpe]

Hourly South Pennine reduced to occasional/sporadic today.. 10.09 from Sheffield is followed by the 17.09. Basically commuting times only, the rest withdrawn.

Only 8 in each direction across the core, seemingly cancelled overnight wrecking many journey plans.

Where does someone with a ticket booked on a cancelled train get compensation? Delay repay won't cover it?

That's ridiculously bad - it's useless for commuters in the direction of Cleethorpes, with the 1311 followed by a 2011.
Scunthorpe has a truly abysmal service today - with all these TPE services cut, and the Northern Doncaster-Scunthorpe still being a permanent rail replacement bus.
What is going on today??

 

[_toommm_]

In the case of the occasional Meadowhall terminators such as the below service, does anyone know where it goes after Meadowhall?

Realtime Trains | 1B83 1424 Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly | 13/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B83 1424 departure from Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[sjpowermac]

Not all industrial action takes the form of a strike. The timetable in place was slightly more intensive than the strike timetable of the last 16 odd Sundays, and was fairly reliably operated (by contrast to most weekdays/Saturdays!). Whilst certainly very disappointing, unless and until all of the IR issues are sorted out, I would anticipate this being the Sunday timetable for the foreseeable future.

Many thanks for the reply.

So was the reduced timetable down to lack of rest day working agreement with the drivers?

**No criticism of anyone intended, just curious as to why. I think the current lack of RDW/collapse in the service really highlights how much goodwill there was previously to keep the service going**

The first service from Scarborough on 12.06.2022 was at 12:35 compared with 08:35 in the pre-strike timetable and then broadly every two hours as opposed to hourly. That’s certainly quite a reduction.

Apologies that I missed the uplift compared with the strike days, I must have blinked

 

[Killingworth]

Realtime Trains | 1B95 2024 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport | 13/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B95 2024 departure from Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In the case of the occasional Meadowhall terminators such as the below service, does anyone know where it goes after Meadowhall?

And where does this one come from to start at Dore at 22.15? I can't think many will want to board there at that time, especially as it doesn't normally stop. Maybe a bus replacement to Dore from the east?

Realtime Trains | 1B83 1424 Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly | 13/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B83 1424 departure from Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

In the case of the occasional Meadowhall terminators such as the below service, does anyone know where it goes after Meadowhall?

Realtime Trains | 1B83 1424 Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly | 13/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B83 1424 departure from Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1B95 2024 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport | 13/06/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B95 2024 departure from Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That usually happens when they run ECS directly to/from the Sheffield station sidings. In turn, that's usually because the previous/following driver is unavailable, and there's no room to keep the set in one of the platforms whilst it awaits its next working.

As for why such services can't run into a platform and then shunt to/from the sidings, in many cases it's because the driver has refused to extend their shift (book on earlier/off later), or shorten their break, to do so. Which they're entitled to do and amidst the current IR climate, some are choosing to do.

It's far from ideal, to put it mildly.

 

[LowLevel]

Hourly South Pennine reduced to occasional/sporadic today.. 10.09 from Sheffield is followed by the 17.09. Basically commuting times only, the rest withdrawn.

Only 8 in each direction across the core, seemingly cancelled overnight wrecking many journey plans.

Where does someone with a ticket booked on a cancelled train get compensation? Delay repay won't cover it?

Yesterday was insane with all the festivals etc on too. I worked a 6 car 15x from Liverpool to Nottingham. By the time I left Warrington it was full and standing throughout with over 640 on board. By some way the busiest train I've ever been the guard on.

Then leaving Manchester for Sheffield nearly 500 on.

The 6 car trains are a pain operationally but can't deny they do the job - they can clear a platform immediately.

Conversely I had one on Saturday that was 4 vice 6 going to Liverpool which left over 100 behind at Sheffield.

There is I think much to be said for still having multiple operators as whilst they all have their own problems, some more than others, rarely are things totally paralysed.

 

[Moonshot]

Which driver strike action is this?

The strike action that is due once the ballot papers have been put together

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

No, let's not live with it. Let's as many as possible as us find long term alternatives. Let's act like customers and exercise normal commercial pressure on the rail industry by damaging its business until it gets its act together.

Except that the industry has a long history of industrial action......which passengers simply accept.

 

[MDB1images]

I have another day visit to the NW tomorrow, I hope it is more pleasent than last weeks miserable journey which triggered this thread, however reading the responses here I dont hold out much hope.

There are a range of opinions and suggestion as to the causes and solutions to the current woes, but the one thing that is obvious is that my journey last Wednesday is typical, and for whatever reason TPE are not delivering even the current reduced timetable.

Two things that strike me about all this:

Following the May 2018 problems both Northern and TPE were badly affected. Northern have made progress, no they are not perfect, but are better than they were 4 years ago. TPE on the other hand have gone from crisis to crisis, and their reliability is still unacceptable.

Route improvements whilst welcome are not an immediate solution to current problems. What is needed now is a properly resourced timetable with enough 'slack' that minor disruption doesn't result in a complete meltdown. Route knowledge needs to be brought up to the point it was a few years ago. Traction knowledge is another problem, 3 different types of traction on TPE north. Industrial action, which is regretable seems to be a symptom of the wider problems.

One question I would like to know the answer to: What proportion of TPE income comes from fares and what comes from subsidies?

Hope your not planning on using the WCML services today, horrendous amount of consecutive cancelled services.
Someone up thread mentioned managed decline, I think the DFT are presiding over a major collapse of Passenger services and seemingly still blocking the TOC from acting.