Transpennine woes and a moan...

[mike57]

I had the (misfortune) to travel over to the North West yesterday for work, and the level of Transpennine North reliability seems to be reaching a low point again. it looks like there was a 3 hour gap in the Liverpool - Newcastle service from 15:40 to 18:31.

I realised that the 17:32 ex Man Vic back to York was cancelled, got finished up work wise and managed to get back to Piccadilly instead of Victoria for the 16:56 ex airport service. This turned up on time but short formed. 3 instead of 6. I got on and got a seat (which was why I went to Piccadilly as with cancellations I was expecting it full), by Manchester Ox Rd it was rammed, and left passengers behind at Man Vic and Huddersfield. It was a thoroughly unpleasent journey, all be it I did get home at the expected time, but only because I realised the situtation and changed my plans. Due to the cancellations the next service at 18:13 will also have been as bad, also with 3 carriages, no doubt leaving people behind. So between 15:40 and 18:30 there were just 12 carriages worth of capacity eastbound on a major route.

I assume that some of the cancellations are due to insufficent drivers due to the ongoing dispute, but the current TPE north Manchester - Leeds service is generally 2 tph where as pre covid is was 4 tph. If TPE cannot resource a 50% timetable without the need for overtime or rest day working what hope is there for any timetable improvement from the current even if the ongoing dispute is finally settled. And why the short forming, they apparently have enough units to cover the 'full' timetable, so there is no excuse for running 3 coach units on the core route.

A quick look back at RTT shows similar problems over the last week

It seems that the Airport to Scotland route is similarly affected. It looks like 6 trains out of the hourly service ran yesterday. I have no experience of TPE south.

Have TPE just given up and are going through the motions? Under the current funding arrangements one would hope that they dont get paid for trains that dont run. This level of service on a busy inter city route (Manchester - Leeds - York) is not acceptable

 

[Moonshot]

I'm afraid you will simply have to live with it until further notice.....it's only going to get worse when drivers strike action kicks in

 

[Lancy99]

I had the (misfortune) to travel over to the North West yesterday for work, and the level of Transpennine North reliability seems to be reaching a low point again. it looks like there was a 3 hour gap in the Liverpool - Newcastle service from 15:40 to 18:31.

I realised that the 17:32 ex Man Vic back to York was cancelled, got finished up work wise and managed to get back to Piccadilly instead of Victoria for the 16:56 ex airport service. This turned up on time but short formed. 3 instead of 6. I got on and got a seat (which was why I went to Piccadilly as with cancellations I was expecting it full), by Manchester Ox Rd it was rammed, and left passengers behind at Man Vic and Huddersfield. It was a thoroughly unpleasent journey, all be it I did get home at the expected time, but only because I realised the situtation and changed my plans. Due to the cancellations the next service at 18:13 will also have been as bad, also with 3 carriages, no doubt leaving people behind. So between 15:40 and 18:30 there were just 12 carriages worth of capacity eastbound on a major route.

I assume that some of the cancellations are due to insufficent drivers due to the ongoing dispute, but the current TPE north Manchester - Leeds service is generally 2 tph where as pre covid is was 4 tph. If TPE cannot resource a 50% timetable without the need for overtime or rest day working what hope is there for any timetable improvement from the current even if the ongoing dispute is finally settled. And why the short forming, they apparently have enough units to cover the 'full' timetable, so there is no excuse for running 3 coach units on the core route.

A quick look back at RTT shows similar problems over the last week

It seems that the Airport to Scotland route is similarly affected. It looks like 6 trains out of the hourly service ran yesterday. I have no experience of TPE south.

Have TPE just given up and are going through the motions? Under the current funding arrangements one would hope that they dont get paid for trains that dont run. This level of service on a busy inter city route (Manchester - Leeds - York) is not acceptable

No driver dispute currently, no rest day working agreement in place.

 

[markymark2000]

No driver dispute currently, no rest day working agreement in place.

If that's the case and TPE were relying upon rest day working, are they hiring more drivers and if so, what is that situation looking like?

 

[Fokx]

The current TPE north Manchester - Leeds service is generally 2 tph where as pre covid is was 4 tph.

It’s currently 3tph (Newcastle/Hull/Redcar service) or 4tph using stopping services and the occasional Scarborough at peak times making 5tph.

If TPE cannot resource a 50% timetable without the need for overtime or rest day working what hope is there for any timetable improvement from the current even if the ongoing dispute is finally settled. And why the short forming, they apparently have enough units to cover the 'full' timetable, so there is no excuse for running 3 coach units on the core route.

Short-forming is usually the result of no driver to bring the other half of the train from the depot or requiring a 6 car to split to prevent cancellation. It’s never done with intention, but the 185 units have been quite unreliable lately on an individual basis, developing several in service faults that differ from another unit of the same class.

The other issue currently is the cancellations are causing the wrong units to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Booked 3 car services are running as 6, and 6 car as a 3.

 

[Lancy99]

If that's the case and TPE were relying upon rest day working, are they hiring more drivers and if so, what is that situation looking like?

Quite a few trainee’s in the system. Still well short of productive driver’s though despite depots being so called over compliment.

 

[Some guy]

I had the (misfortune) to travel over to the North West yesterday for work, and the level of Transpennine North reliability seems to be reaching a low point again. it looks like there was a 3 hour gap in the Liverpool - Newcastle service from 15:40 to 18:31.

I realised that the 17:32 ex Man Vic back to York was cancelled, got finished up work wise and managed to get back to Piccadilly instead of Victoria for the 16:56 ex airport service. This turned up on time but short formed. 3 instead of 6. I got on and got a seat (which was why I went to Piccadilly as with cancellations I was expecting it full), by Manchester Ox Rd it was rammed, and left passengers behind at Man Vic and Huddersfield. It was a thoroughly unpleasent journey, all be it I did get home at the expected time, but only because I realised the situtation and changed my plans. Due to the cancellations the next service at 18:13 will also have been as bad, also with 3 carriages, no doubt leaving people behind. So between 15:40 and 18:30 there were just 12 carriages worth of capacity eastbound on a major route.

I assume that some of the cancellations are due to insufficent drivers due to the ongoing dispute, but the current TPE north Manchester - Leeds service is generally 2 tph where as pre covid is was 4 tph. If TPE cannot resource a 50% timetable without the need for overtime or rest day working what hope is there for any timetable improvement from the current even if the ongoing dispute is finally settled. And why the short forming, they apparently have enough units to cover the 'full' timetable, so there is no excuse for running 3 coach units on the core route.

A quick look back at RTT shows similar problems over the last week

It seems that the Airport to Scotland route is similarly affected. It looks like 6 trains out of the hourly service ran yesterday. I have no experience of TPE south.

Have TPE just given up and are going through the motions? Under the current funding arrangements one would hope that they dont get paid for trains that dont run. This level of service on a busy inter city route (Manchester - Leeds - York) is not acceptable

The Government are still paying TPE to run the service so TPE couldn’t careless about cancelling trains. What they tend to do on the west coast is start the services from Carlisle to Glasgow/Edinburgh meaning the journey has still been completed to the terminus station

 

[markymark2000]

The Government are still paying TPE to run the service so TPE couldn’t careless about cancelling trains. What they tend to do on the west coast is start the services from Carlisle to Glasgow/Edinburgh meaning the journey has still been completed to the terminus station

Payments to TOCs should be the same as local councils to bus operators. They only pay what is actually operated. Not paid if it doesn't run properly (open for passengers). Government would save so much money and TPE would be forced to sort themselves out as it would start hurting their finanances.

 

[LittleAH]

Payments to TOCs should be the same as local councils to bus operators. They only pay what is actually operated. Not paid if it doesn't run properly (open for passengers). Government would save so much money and TPE would be forced to sort themselves out as it would start hurting their finanances.

Except that the issues are as a direct result of the government and how they're not allowing TOCs to engage meaningfully with Unions to address Industrial relations issues.

Government at wholly at fault for this situation.

 

[markymark2000]

Except that the issues are as a direct result of the government and how they're not allowing TOCs to engage meaningfully with Unions to address Industrial relations issues.

Government at wholly at fault for this situation.

So it will never end then this situation. The only way to win is hire a ton of drivers which is costly and takes a long time. IS that basically what is being said.

 

[Watershed]

So it will never end then this situation. The only way to win is hire a ton of drivers which is costly and takes a long time. IS that basically what is being said.

Yes. As time goes on, the continuing training should mean that there are slightly fewer cancellations as more drivers (re)gain full competence. But without RDW there will never be anything close to enough drivers to run a reliable service. That's the simple reality.

It's a very frustrating situation but without movement on the Government's side, nothing will substantively change.

 

[Efini92]

No driver dispute currently, no rest day working agreement in place.

Isn’t not have a rest day work agreement a dispute?

 

[mike57]

It’s currently 3tph (Newcastle/Hull/Redcar service) or 4tph using stopping services and the occasional Scarborough at peak times making 5tph.

That makes it look better than it is. The Hull service starts from Man Pic, and doesnt go to York. If you want to use it you have to get to Pic rather than Vic and you still have a change in Leeds. There is one Scarborough service eastbound at 07.30, the next one isn't until 21:15. If you look at the basic Manchester - York through service between 09:30 and the end of the day it is currently 2tph leaving at roughly xx:10 ish and xx:30 ish. Yes there are alternatives in the event of disruption, but they are not convenient and take longer. This is an ongoing problem, not the result of some outside event causing a one off disruption which I can accept does happen.

 

[Lancy99]

isn’t part of our t&c’s so wouldn’t say so as such.

 

[hibtastic]

I have noticed alot of shot formed 185s recently. All of the Hulls were supposed to be 6 cars and some of the peak Huddersfields were the same but every single one I have joined over the last couple of weeks has been 3 car only. Maybe I am just unlucky?

 

[Halish Railway]

I’m currently waiting at Leeds. The 13:45 departure to Manchester Airport is starting here instead of from Redcar due to staff shortages and a unit is running ECS from York and will arrive at 14:07. Here there has been absolutely no communication and I’ve had to figure things out by looking at RTT.

 

[mike57]

Payments to TOCs should be the same as local councils to bus operators. They only pay what is actually operated. Not paid if it doesn't run properly (open for passengers). Government would save so much money and TPE would be forced to sort themselves out as it would start hurting their finanances.

I agree, and if you stop short or start short you only get half the payment or the proportion of route miles operated, which ever is the smaller. As a taxpayer I dont have an issue with subsidies/support for things, even things I dont personally use as I can see the overall benefit. What I do have an issue with is subsidies which do not deliver what they are aimed at, in this case that we have a rail network available for those that need it that and works reasonably well.

 

[Watershed]

I have noticed alot of shot formed 185s recently. All of the Hulls were supposed to be 6 cars and some of the peak Huddersfields were the same but every single one I have joined over the last couple of weeks has been 3 car only. Maybe I am just unlucky?

Almost all Hulls are booked 6 cars. Manchester-Huddersfield stoppers are all booked 3 cars, except early and late services conveying an additional unit for the Huddersfield-Leeds stopper.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Except that the issues are as a direct result of the government and how they're not allowing TOCs to engage meaningfully with Unions to address Industrial relations issues.

Government at wholly at fault for this situation.

Were there any rest day working being withdraw, traincrew route knowledge and availability issues before Government took over?

 

[Carlisle]

It's a very frustrating situation but without movement on the Government's side, nothing will substantively change.

Why should government substantially enhance wages of a grade that even most who work within it freely admit is currently well paid, there’ll be far more urgent priorities ahead of that. If anything government should subsidise a sizeable increase in training capacity within the industry.

 

[Egg Centric]

Short-forming is usually the result of no driver to bring the other half of the train from the depot or requiring a 6 car to split to prevent cancellation. It’s never done with intention, but the 185 units have been quite unreliable lately on an individual basis, developing several in service faults that differ from another unit of the same class.

Seems to suggest issues could be avoided by temporarily running as 6 car all day, even if means a lot of carting around air? Oui ou non?

 

[Watershed]

Why should government substantially enhance wages of a grade that even most who work within it freely admit is currently well paid, there’ll be far more urgent priorities ahead of that. If anything government should subsidise a sizeable increase in training capacity within the industry.

It always has been, and always will be, cheaper to pay enhanced overtime rates than to have enough staff to reliably run the full service without overtime.

Whilst more training capacity is definitely needed, that will not help to address the fundamental problem that the government would prefer to save a (relatively) small sum in overtime, even at the cost of significant unreliability on an already reduced timetable.

 

[Fokx]

That makes it look better than it is. The Hull service starts from Man Pic, and doesnt go to York. If you want to use it you have to get to Pic rather than Vic and you still have a change in Leeds.

That is all true, but you claimed there was only 2tph between Manchester and Leeds which isn’t the case. It’s enough for the mid-week demand currently when everything runs to time and to capacity but a dramatic increase of this is only really required in peak times and weekends

There is one Scarborough service eastbound at 07.30, the next one isn't until 21:15.

There’s a 15.29 from Piccadilly too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2022 ==

Seems to suggest issues could be avoided by temporarily running as 6 car all day, even if means a lot of carting around air? Oui ou non?

It’s not possible to do that as units which form 6 cars don’t always come from the same depot and are required in different parts of the network.

Eg there’s a Redcar service which forms from a Ardwick and York unit. A Sheffield diagram that requires a unit swap at Ardwick for routine maintenance and service, and Hull diagrams that form from Ardwick and Hull depots.

 

[43066]

Why should government substantially enhance wages of a grade that even most who work within it freely admit is currently well paid, there’ll be far more urgent priorities ahead of that. If anything government should subsidise a sizeable increase in training capacity within the industry.

Do you understand what overtime is? Nobody is having their wages “enhanced”, they’re doing extra work for extra pay. Naturally that might include an additional premium to make it worth bothering.

It always has been, and always will be, cheaper to pay enhanced overtime rates than to have enough staff to reliably run the full service without overtime.

Whilst more training capacity is definitely needed, that will not help to address the fundamental problem that the government would prefer to save a (relatively) small sum in overtime, even at the cost of significant unreliability on an already reduced timetable.

Indeed.

Of course the (all too obvious) subtext to the comment you’re responding to is: “I think train drivers are overpaid, so they should be made to work overtime for free…”

 

[Carlisle]

Of course the (all too obvious) subtext to the comment you’re responding to is: “I think train drivers are overpaid, so they should be made to work overtime for free…”

Its irrelevant what I think , but when you consider that your RMT colleagues at several TOCs have been in dispute over enhanced overtime & other payments given to drivers but not equally to other grades , I may have a point

 

[43066]

Its irrelevant what I think , but when you consider that your RMT colleagues at several TOCs have been in dispute over enhanced overtime & other payments given to drivers but not equally to other grades , I may have a point

It’s all too obvious what you think based on your endless postings on the subject. I rather suspect it’s an opinion based on a lack of knowledge and good old fashioned jealousy, never having done the job yourself, nor even worked in the industry.

Since you’re so quick to pass judgement on others, what do you do yourself and how much do you earn, out of interest?

Nobody is in dispute over drivers getting paid a much higher basic than other grades, to my knowledge, unless you know better?

 

[ComUtoR]

If anything government should subsidise a sizeable increase in training capacity within the industry.

I can agree that the priorities are all kinda skewed and messed up. The obvious answer here is that dealing with terms and conditions for staff if different to dealing with terms and conditions for a "Franchise"

You also have to ask yourself how much does an overtime payment simply incentivise more rest day working and how much does it have to be before employing more staff is cheaper than paying overtime.

Its irrelevant what I think , but when you consider that your RMT colleagues at several TOCs have been in dispute over enhanced overtime & other payments given to drivers but not equally to other grades ,

There is an inbalance for sure but...

I may have a point

... not when you are comparing a pink elephant and a pink hippo. Granted they look similar from a distance but close up they aren't the same. Both are on different terms and conditions and have different rules and policies in place. Is a Guards PNB 45mins or a 30min in the room ? Which role has the higher fatigue index ? How long are the shifts (min/max) ? Are there competency issues ?

What about business needs ? Can the train run without a Guard (DCO/DOO) or will the cost of cancellation exceed the payment for the Driver ? What about depot cover and staffing levels ? Does the rest day payment reflect supply/demand in each grade ? Is it an ECS working that needs to be covered ?

Very much chalky oranges and cheesy apples.

 

[northernchris]

I’m currently waiting at Leeds. The 13:45 departure to Manchester Airport is starting here instead of from Redcar due to staff shortages and a unit is running ECS from York and will arrive at 14:07. Here there has been absolutely no communication and I’ve had to figure things out by looking at RTT.

The TPE platform staff at Leeds are unpleasant, frequently shouting at passengers and offer no help during disruption, retreating as soon as they have dispatched a train.

 

[gc4946]

I get the impression that rest day working and overtime (not applying to just TPE) is keeping up the level of passenger train services running. This is a substantial level of goodwill that could dissipate at any stage.
I hope there's going to be enough train crew available in future, once trained, to make rest day working and overtime less of a necessity to maintain services.

 

[Facing Back]

I can agree that the priorities are all kinda skewed and messed up. The obvious answer here is that dealing with terms and conditions for staff if different to dealing with terms and conditions for a "Franchise"

You also have to ask yourself how much does an overtime payment simply incentivise more rest day working and how much does it have to be before employing more staff is cheaper than paying overtime.



There is an inbalance for sure but...


... not when you are comparing a pink elephant and a pink hippo. Granted they look similar from a distance but close up they aren't the same. Both are on different terms and conditions and have different rules and policies in place. Is a Guards PNB 45mins or a 30min in the room ? Which role has the higher fatigue index ? How long are the shifts (min/max) ? Are there competency issues ?

What about business needs ? Can the train run without a Guard (DCO/DOO) or will the cost of cancellation exceed the payment for the Driver ? What about depot cover and staffing levels ? Does the rest day payment reflect supply/demand in each grade ? Is it an ECS working that needs to be covered ?

Very much chalky oranges and cheesy apples.

I understood the apples and oranges but can you point me towards your drug supplier as I quite like the idea of a pink hippo?