Are the next rail strikes confirmed?

[EngrAndrew]

At the end of the day you can come up with whatever fancy words you like to justify it, but the general public are predominantly not going to support this strike action, regardless of how you try to word it.


Exactly, but an industry that treats its customers badly is not going to do well (or as well as it otherwise would!), and ultimately that is not good for the industry's prospects.

On the contrary, this dispute has huge public support, despite what the media tells you.

 

[TheEdge]

At the end of the day you can come up with whatever fancy words you like to justify it, but the general public are predominantly not going to support this strike action, regardless of how you try to word it.

Fancy terms? You mean a statement of the issues facing rail workers, and lets be honest, a huge chunk of the working population. And you keep saying they have no support but I don't really think thats true, there is support from other unions, there is support from people who just want to stick it to the government and there is a fair amount of support from the general public.

Will you only be happy once all unions are banned? Are you Elon Musk?

 

[Scott1]

Who is saying that, where, and when?

Apologies I didn't make it clear, that was more a general remark on the media etc, not here specifically.

IIn regards to the public not supporting the unions, that's not what I'm hearing from most of the people I meet. Which, honestly, really surprised me, but then I meet a lot of people who are just as unhappy with the cost of living and their jobs so I suppose that's going to influence people. Still, has surprised me that even in the news a lot of the public have voiced support.

 

[yorkie]

That train crew as a whole don't do anything proactive?

I did not say that; you made it up.

Feels like bashing rail workers...

I have posted my observations based on multiple journeys on TPE; I deem the situation to be acceptable. Do you think that it is acceptable that Guards simply stay in their cabs and do not interact with passengers?

Let's rewind to what sparked this off; a TPE Guard was criticising a member of 'management' on the basis that it is they, TPE Guards, who are proactive.

But the reality is that many (not some) are anything but proactive.

And also don't inflate your importance here, they are your anecdotal observations as one person, they are for sure not accurate and true for the entire network.

I never said it was accurate and true for the entire network; you are making this up.

It's not just my observations; ask anyone who uses the route!

As I said, I have a friend who was very direct with me about how he intends to do the absolute minimum. You could say "but that is one person"; it isn't. It's endemic in the company.

 

[the sniper]

At the end of the day you can come up with whatever fancy words you like to justify it, but the general public are predominantly not going to support this strike action, regardless of how you try to word it.

Well on that we can agree, but there a lot of things the general public seemingly predominantly think that I don't, nor you probably, agree with.

Though saying that, Mick Lynch goes down far better on wider social media than any of the usual suspects here could ever bare to imagine...

​

 

[dk1]

Exactly, but an industry that treats its customers badly is not going to do well (or as well as it otherwise would!), and ultimately that is not good for the industry's prospects.

It strikes me that you are not in tune with much of public opinion.

 

[yorkie]

On the contrary, this dispute has huge public support, despite what the media tells you.

Where is the evidence of that? (Don't say Twitter!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==

It strikes me that you are not in tune with much of public opinion.

The feeling is mutual.

 

[Scott1]

I did not say that; you made it up.

I must have made it up to, because I got exactly the same impression from you. That you just dont like rail staff.

 

[Fokx]

Indeed but many of your colleagues are not proactive in the slightest. Not some; many.

I've never know anything like it before; if you went back a few years it would be almost unheard of not to have a ticket check.

They are not presenting a good case for the value of the grade and are acting in a manner that is detrimental to the future of the grade itself and the entire rail industry in my opinion,

True, but they’re still the ones who interact with passengers the most, even if they’re working to rule or not leaving the cab.

The cause is simply that entire workforce is completely demotivated and which stems down from the DfT and the management teams of the TOC’s (who have little power at the moment). Years ago guards would receive commission from buy on board sales, receive performance bonuses, perhaps even something like an Easter egg at Christmas, all of that has gone now, and we’re at a stage where you have to beg the DfT for spending on office supplies like paperclips.

Would you really do more than the bare minimum of your job role if you wasn’t rewarded for doing more or punished for doing less? Would you do overtime if you didn’t feel valued? Would honestly you give 110% in a role that wasn’t giving you it back? Or would you simply turn up, do the bare necessities of the job, and go home again? TOC’s are aware of employees that do the bare minimum, but don’t have any motivation either to do anything about it, at the end of the day they’re still being paid regardless for what semblance of a service actually runs.

I won’t comment on the last part because it’s clear the decision has already been made by this government and the previous transport secretary, no matter how valuable the grade actually is, or passenger perception/desire.

 

[dk1]

Where is the evidence of that? (Don't say Twitter!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==


The feeling is mutual.

thats good to hear.

 

[yorkie]

I must have made it up to, because I got exactly the same impression from you. That you just dont like rail staff.

I am critical of those who do the bare minimum; I have praised the staff who do a good job and I have also totally supported those who want to work too, which is not a position some union members take towards their colleagues.

 

[Fokx]

The Unions are now trying to disrupt and wind up passengers as much as possible.

They’re really not.

The recent strike dates are all to intentionally target the decision makers of the industry. The rail awards to hit the TOC’s, the Conservative party conference to hit the DfT and new cabinet

 

[yorkie]

True, but they’re still the ones who interact with passengers the most, even if they’re working to rule or not leaving the cab.

There isn't much in the way of interaction when they are working to rule and not leaving the cab though.

The point is you were being unfairly critical of 'management' when the reality is many of your colleagues are not at all 'proactive' .

 

[Scott1]

I am critical of those who do the bare minimum; I have praised the staff who do a good job and I have also totally supported those who want to work too, which is not a position some union members take towards their colleagues.

We are clearly not going to agree, but I've seen a lot of dislike to staff and very little of this 'praise' you mention, unless of course you mean to none union staff, who you clearly do like.

 

[yorkie]

They’re really not.

So why did they decide the date today, why are they not putting out any comment on it?

The recent strike dates are all to intentionally target the decision makers of the industry. The rail awards to hit the TOC’s, the Conservative party conference to hit the DfT and new cabinet

Not to disrupt passengers then?

 

[dk1]

I am critical of those who do the bare minimum; I have praised the staff who do a good job and I have also totally supported those who want to work too, which is not a position some union members take towards their colleagues.

Without causing offence, I think a lot of staff & others on here have got the measure of your opinions.

 

[yorkie]

We are clearly not going to agree, but I've seen a lot of dislike to staff and very little of this 'praise' you mention, unless of course you mean to none union staff, who you clearly do like.

It is clear that you come from this from a position of being a strong union supporter and you do not put passengers first. That is absolutely your right, but it is only natural we are going to disagree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==

Without causing offence, I think a lot of staff & others on here have got the measure of your opinions.

I would imagine those who support staying in the back cab and not being proactive would be very angry at my opinions, yes indeed.

 

[Fokx]

Let's rewind to what sparked this off; a TPE Guard was criticising a member of 'management' on the basis that it is they, TPE Guards, who are proactive.

No I wasn’t.

Simply replying to Supernova that the management who give permission to post about strike dates are off this weekend, whilst those affected and in communication with the very passengers using the services and affected by said action are working

 

[TheEdge]

I did not say that; you made it up.

I mean you highlighted train crew and being proactive in the message you quoted then asked the poster if they were joking?

I have posted my observations based on multiple journeys on TPE; I deem the situation to be acceptable. Do you think that it is acceptable that Guards simply stay in their cabs and do not interact with passengers?

Let's rewind to what sparked this off; a TPE Guard was criticising a member of 'management' on the basis that it is they, TPE Guards, who are proactive.

But the reality is that many (not some) are anything but proactive.

So still the anecdotal observations of only one person then?

No I don't, but to start getting the broad brush out based on only your observation of one TOC seems unreasonable.

What's you definition of "many", across the entire industry, based on your personal observations of only one TOC in one area? You seem to like conflating if you are referring to one TOC or the whole industry so I'm just doing the same.

I must have made it up to, because I got exactly the same impression from you. That you just dont like rail staff.

Its not he doesn't like rail staff, it's train crew he really hates.

 

[Urobach]

Fine but they cannot have it both ways.

Neither can anyone else.

Two weeks required before strike action? You got it.

Majority voting to strike before it can go ahead? You got it

Not striking during period of mourning and so passengers can travel to pay respects? You got that too

I totally support those staff who are proactive and are keen to work and do not support the strikes; sadly they are often afraid to speak up.

Possibly because the vast majority of staff are part of a union that received an overwhelming mandate to strike from them. Of course people can work if they disagree, but then it's probably wise not being part of a union (as I seem to note in previous posts you yourself left due to disagreements as is your right. Apologies if I've confused you with another poster)

 

[Scott1]

It is clear that you come from this from a position of being a strong union supporter and you do not put passengers first. That is absolutely your right, but it is only natural we are going to disagree.

I take offense at that. I always put the passenger first when I am on duty, my shifts regularly over run, I routinely go far beyond what my job requires, and frankly I only do this because I care, deeply, that my passengers get the service they deserve. I do this despite having been on a pay freeze for years, having little leadership and often being left to fend for myself.

That doesn't mean I don't fully support the union too. Perhaps if you did my job you would understand why I have made the choice to strike, but I don't think you care to be honest.

 

[Fokx]

There isn't much in the way of interaction when they are working to rule and not leaving the cab though.

The point is you were being unfairly critical of 'management' when the reality is many of your colleagues are not at all 'proactive' .

The bulk of my interactions with passengers in regards to questions and queries are spent on platforms and station concourses and not whilst on the train. If it’s a double set you can’t interact with 50% of the passengers anyway because there’s no physical method to

I really wasn’t.

 

[yorkie]

I mean you highlighted train crew and being proactive in the message you quoted then asked the poster if they were joking?

Of course; the message was criticising 'management' and going on about how their particular grade was 'proactive' when the reality is that many of their colleagues are anything but proactive.

So still the anecdotal observations of only one person then?

Have you used TPE yourself? Have you asked anyone else who uses the route?

No I don't, but to start getting the broad brush out based on only your observation of one TOC seems unreasonable.

It is not just based on my observation; it is in fact based also on the position stated by Guards themselves.

Indeed @Fokx posted some reasons why many of their colleagues behave in the way they do; did you miss that post?

What's you definition of "many", across the entire industry, based on your personal observations of only one TOC in one area? You seem to like conflating if you are referring to one TOC or the whole industry so I'm just doing the same.

I already answered that above; we have a TPE Guard criticising 'management' and saying that their colleagues are 'proactive' when in reality many are not. The TPE Guard then posted their justification for why they do the minimum. There was no denial that many of their colleagues do the bare minimum.

Its not he doesn't like rail staff, it's train crew.

You are making this up; please desist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==

Of course people can work if they disagree, but then it's probably wise not being part of a union (as I seem to note in previous posts you yourself left due to disagreements as is your right. Apologies if I've confused you with another poster)

Not that chestnut again! There are all sorts of reasons why people may want to join a Union; its not all about striking.

 

[dk1]

I take offense at that. I always put the passenger first when I am on duty, my shifts regularly over run, I routinely go far beyond what my job requires, and frankly I only do this because I care, deeply, that my passengers get the service they deserve. I do this despite having been on a pay freeze for years, having little leadership and often being left to fend for myself.

That doesn't mean I don't fully support the union too. Perhaps if you did my job you would understand why I have made the choice to strike, but I don't think you care to be honest.

I take offense at that. I always put the passenger first when I am on duty, my shifts regularly over run, I routinely go far beyond what my job requires, and frankly I only do this because I care, deeply, that my passengers get the service they deserve. I do this despite having been on a pay freeze for years, having little leadership and often being left to fend for myself.

That doesn't mean I don't fully support the union too. Perhaps if you did my job you would understand why I have made the choice to strike, but I don't think you care to be honest.

I really wouldn’t bother to waste your time & effort in responding mate.

 

[yorkie]

I take offense at that. I always put the passenger first when I am on duty, my shifts regularly over run, I routinely go far beyond what my job requires, and frankly I only do this because I care, deeply, that my passengers get the service they deserve. I do this despite having been on a pay freeze for years, having little leadership and often being left to fend for myself.

That doesn't mean I don't fully support the union too. Perhaps if you did my job you would understand why I have made the choice to strike, but I don't think you care to be honest.

I don't see how these actions are putting the passenger first? You may well put passengers first as an individual while you are working, but the strike actions can cause immense harm to some individuals in some cases, while in others they cause annoyance and put people off rail. Everyone loses.

 

[Horizon22]

Where is the evidence of that? (Don't say Twitter!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2022 ==


The feeling is mutual.

It's broadly mixed - https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-divided-over-support-rail-strikes. This was 58% https://comresglobal.com/polls/transport-poll-21-june/

My understanding is that it has risen a little since June though as people aligned with rail workers ("solidarity") and other unions striking due to the general cost of living crisis. They certainly support rail workers more than the companies or the government.

 

[Scott1]

I don't see how these actions are putting the passenger first? You may well put passengers first as an individual while you are working, but the actions can cause immense harm to individuals in some cases, while in others they cause annoyance and put people off rail. Everyone loses.

Not what you said though, is it? You just said "you do not put passengers first" You said nothing about me as an individual, you made a sweeping statement. One of many, that make it clear you have a very low opinion of any forum member who is in a union. Not the first time you've done it frankly.

 

[Horizon22]

I don't see how these actions are putting the passenger first? You may well put passengers first as an individual while you are working, but the strike actions can cause immense harm to some individuals in some cases, while in others they cause annoyance and put people off rail. Everyone loses.

Naturally strikes cause disruption. Otherwise what would be the point of them? Rail passenger figures (not revenue) reached some of their highest point since pre-pandemic in August so I'm not sure that statement is entirely true.

 

[Urobach]

Not that chestnut again! There are all sorts of reasons why people may want to join a Union; its not all about striking.

Of course it's not, I don't know anyone who's joined a union purely to strike!

Most people don't want to strike, but sometimes it seems to be the only thing that works and left with no alternative you get this result, and then people do.

Striking has finally got the rhetoric to calm down and RDG to agree to talks, so that's a positive. Clearly not enough acceptable progress has been made

Unions work for and are as strong as their members. If they feel labour has to be withdrawn to get a result, they either get supported and given a mandate or they don't

Surely you know all this

 

[yorkie]

It's broadly mixed - https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-divided-over-support-rail-strikes. This was 58% https://comresglobal.com/polls/transport-poll-21-june/

My understanding is that it has risen a little since June though as people aligned with rail workers ("solidarity") and other unions striking due to the general cost of living crisis. They certainly support rail workers more than the companies or the government.

35% supporting isn't great when you consider that rail is a very small proportion of journeys; many of those 35% 'supporting' strikes are probably not rail users much if at all.

Not what you said though, is it? You just said "you do not put passengers first" You said nothing about me as an individual, you made a sweeping statement. One of many, that make it clear you have a very low opinion of any forum member who is in a union. Not the first time you've done it frankly.

To be clear, I was talking purely in the context of what was being discussed, i.e. that striking, and supporting strikes, is not putting passengers first. Of course it isn't; how can it be?

That is not in any way a suggestion that you do not put passengers first, as an individual, while you are working.