Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[hkstudent]

I don't think anyone would expect the Whitechapel to Abbey Wood section to be as busy as the core part of the route, particularly at the weekend. It is brand new railway and, with the the best will in the world, Abbey Wood isn't a 'destination place' lots of people are going to want to travel to, in the same way that Central London is. There has been residential development at Woolwich which should result in custom.


Remember that Stratford to Shenfield and Paddington to Heathrow / West Drayton are not new railways.

The eastern route to Shenfield is already a very busy railway (particularly between Stratford and Romford). The western side isn't so busy, but equally, a lot of passengers travel west of Ealing Broadway having come off the Central Line. The passenger flow is therefore 'already there' and through running should mean that passengers stay on rather than changing to the Central Line, although clearly destination is important. For example, Crossrail won't change flows between Southall and Shepherds Bush.


You would hope it would be busier but it will take time for people to more or change their activities because of the new connections.

Indeed. Only if Crossrail had extended to Dartford from Abbey Wood would result in good number of riderships.

 

[Horizon22]

Almost worth getting up extra early for that...

You could always ride the slightly more sociable 0540 to Greenford…

The 2-car is also not too badly loaded for those early shift types.

 

[SynthD]

What’s the big deal about Liz line taking over the relief lines instead of building their own? The government, NR and GWR all want it. Even if GWR didn’t want it, it sounds like they’d be running 2tph and it would look like a waste of money and space.

The announcement for the Stratford branch is currently played at Liverpool Street, will this remain in peak time for the train to Gidea Park? It doesn’t need to.

 

[matt_world2004]

Given the plan was even with the additional running to Heathrow that there would be a residual GwR Didcot to paddington service calling at Ealing Broadway and Hayes. If the GwR service is withdrawn steps should be taken to replace it with a Elizabeth line service that provides a similar stopping pattern to the original GwR service to reading. Otherwise it is a loss of service for passengers westward from West Drayton

 

[Horizon22]

Given the plan was even with the additional running to Heathrow that there would be a residual GwR Didcot to paddington service calling at Ealing Broadway and Hayes. If the GwR service is withdrawn steps should be taken to replace it with a Elizabeth line service that provides a similar stopping pattern to the original GwR service to reading. Otherwise it is a loss of service for passengers westward from West Drayton

Westward of W. Drayton will get an additional Maidenhead terminator from November, so not really. Twyford retains the GWR stop.

 

[coppercapped]

What’s the big deal about Liz line taking over the relief lines instead of building their own? The government, NR and GWR all want it. Even if GWR didn’t want it, it sounds like they’d be running 2tph and it would look like a waste of money and space.

The announcement for the Stratford branch is currently played at Liverpool Street, will this remain in peak time for the train to Gidea Park? It doesn’t need to.

Unless you have access to confidential information you have no idea what the government, NR and GWR really want.

You obviously haven’t understood the ramifications of your statement as you have missed the freight operating companies from your list - they are also big users of the Great Western Main Line. This is a significant part of ‘the big deal’ as margins in the freight business are thin and additional costs will not help the freight operators to maintain or even expand their market. Restricting their hours of operation or their flexibility in timetabling will not in any way help increase railfreight’s market share in heavy goods, containers or, potentially, parcels services.

I am sure that this is not a result that you desire.

The other part of the ‘big deal’ is that the frequency of the Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains does not permit the Paddington - Didcot services to have an optimum path through Reading. As I wrote in an earlier post the Relief Lines west of Reading are also used by Cross-Country and the container trains from Southampton to the Midlands and points north with the result that both the westbound trains and one of the eastbound trains in each off-peak hour typically wait for between eight and thirteen minutes for a path.

You will be hard put to it to find a better way to encourage people to use a car than by making a journey longer than it need be in an area where off-peak the roads are not that congested. Maidenhead to Pangbourne takes about 30 to 40 minutes by car, typically the train now takes 36 minutes but could do it in around 25 minutes - as indeed it used to do. Rinse and repeat for other start/finish combinations.

Already the intensity of operations of the Crossrail/Elizabeth line near London has caused a distinct lowering of the quality of the local services in the upper Thames Valley through Reading. If TfL wants to increase the frequency even further then it should buy its own infrastructure and not make life more difficult for those living outside its area.

Given the plan was even with the additional running to Heathrow that there would be a residual GwR Didcot to paddington service calling at Ealing Broadway and Hayes. If the GwR service is withdrawn steps should be taken to replace it with a Elizabeth line service that provides a similar stopping pattern to the original GwR service to reading. Otherwise it is a loss of service for passengers westward from West Drayton

I wouldn't call the service 'residual' - for many years there has been a two trains per hour local service from Paddington to Didcot (and originally, Oxford). This has not changed...!

Westward of W. Drayton will get an additional Maidenhead terminator from November, so not really. Twyford retains the GWR stop.

Yes, the extra Maidenhead terminator fills some of the gap, but the changes now mean that to reach stations on the Great Western route between Slough and Paddington from the upper Thames Valley one or two changes of train will now be necessary whereas previously only one was needed to reach the lesser used stations such as Hanwell and the busier stations such as Hayes or Ealing Broadway could be reached directly. Sir James Milne would be turning in his grave!

Looking at this from the west it can only be described as a deterioration - it does not help to build back train travel.

 

[matt_world2004]

Westward of W. Drayton will get an additional Maidenhead terminator from November, so not really. Twyford retains the GWR stop.

I would imagine that there would be significant broken links at Hayes and Ealing Broadway for twyford services. With Hayes often being used as an interchange point for Heathrow airport

 

[SynthD]

Maidenhead to Pangbourne

I’ve heard many seemingly rare journeys listed to criticise Crossrail but this one is new. Do you have a passenger count? I didn’t forget freight, their paths are highest priority above everyone so I didn’t include them.

 

[coppercapped]

I’ve heard many seemingly rare journeys listed to criticise Crossrail but this one is new. Do you have a passenger count?

I wrote 'Rinse and repeat for other start/finish combinations'.

Admittedly there was, and is, a large turnover of passengers at Reading out of and into the Oxford (now Didcot) local service. But equally there was, pre-covid, a significant number of people who remained on the trains being the sum of all the passengers boarding or alighting at the stations west of Reading travelling to or from all the stations between Reading and, ooh, Ealing Broadway.

The point is - it's the sum total, not necessarily the individual flows between specific pairs.

I didn’t forget freight, their paths are highest priority above everyone so I didn’t include them.

Why not? Not everybody is clairvoyant.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wouldn't call the service 'residual' - for many years there has been a two trains per hour local service from Paddington to Didcot (and originally, Oxford). This has not changed...

Residual means what remains after the greater part has gone this perfectly describes the Didcot stoppers as the majority of the inner suburban services are now operated by tfl rail

 

[Horizon22]

I wouldn't call the service 'residual' - for many years there has been a two trains per hour local service from Paddington to Didcot (and originally, Oxford). This has not changed...!

Yes, the extra Maidenhead terminator fills some of the gap, but the changes now mean that to reach stations on the Great Western route between Slough and Paddington from the upper Thames Valley one or two changes of train will now be necessary whereas previously only one was needed to reach the lesser used stations such as Hanwell and the busier stations such as Hayes or Ealing Broadway could be reached directly. Sir James Milne would be turning in his grave!

Looking at this from the west it can only be described as a deterioration - it does not help to build back train travel.

Possibly. But I imagine the bean counters have checked the numbers and the number of people making the journeys are deemed sufficiently small. Even then, this isn't Crossrail / TfL / Elizabeth Line's problem. TfL often has a standard pattern of services and most people are heading inward or outward depending on time of day. One exception would be school children. I agree it will be a loss, but is it a loss to benefit a greater proportion of people? Some very lightly used stations between Reading - Didcot.

 

[Benjwri]

But I imagine the bean counters have checked the numbers and the number of people making the journeys are deemed sufficiently small. Even then, this isn't Crossrail / TfL / Elizabeth Line's problem. TfL often has a standard pattern of services and most people are heading inward or outward depending on time of day. One exception would be school children. I agree it will be a loss, but is it a loss to benefit a greater proportion of people? Some very lightly used stations between Reading - Didcot.

Obviously it's not so simple to fit the trains in, but at off peak the XR trains are still timed incredibly inconveniently, and in some cases at midday you are looking at more than 20 minutes to change at Reading for a XR train from GWR stopper.

I also find it slightly amusing that to get to GWR's own Greenford shuttle from the West will require at least 2 changes from Reading (XR to Hayes, Heathrow XR to West Ealing), their biggest served station outside London, unless you want to shell out for a travelcard, or ticket to Paddington.

 

[RobShipway]

Unless you have access to confidential information you have no idea what the government, NR and GWR really want.

You obviously haven’t understood the ramifications of your statement as you have missed the freight operating companies from your list - they are also big users of the Great Western Main Line. This is a significant part of ‘the big deal’ as margins in the freight business are thin and additional costs will not help the freight operators to maintain or even expand their market. Restricting their hours of operation or their flexibility in timetabling will not in any way help increase railfreight’s market share in heavy goods, containers or, potentially, parcels services.

I am sure that this is not a result that you desire.

The other part of the ‘big deal’ is that the frequency of the Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains does not permit the Paddington - Didcot services to have an optimum path through Reading. As I wrote in an earlier post the Relief Lines west of Reading are also used by Cross-Country and the container trains from Southampton to the Midlands and points north with the result that both the westbound trains and one of the eastbound trains in each off-peak hour typically wait for between eight and thirteen minutes for a path.

You will be hard put to it to find a better way to encourage people to use a car than by making a journey longer than it need be in an area where off-peak the roads are not that congested. Maidenhead to Pangbourne takes about 30 to 40 minutes by car, typically the train now takes 36 minutes but could do it in around 25 minutes - as indeed it used to do. Rinse and repeat for other start/finish combinations.

Already the intensity of operations of the Crossrail/Elizabeth line near London has caused a distinct lowering of the quality of the local services in the upper Thames Valley through Reading. If TfL wants to increase the frequency even further then it should buy its own infrastructure and not make life more difficult for those living outside its area.

I wouldn't call the service 'residual' - for many years there has been a two trains per hour local service from Paddington to Didcot (and originally, Oxford). This has not changed...!

Yes, the extra Maidenhead terminator fills some of the gap, but the changes now mean that to reach stations on the Great Western route between Slough and Paddington from the upper Thames Valley one or two changes of train will now be necessary whereas previously only one was needed to reach the lesser used stations such as Hanwell and the busier stations such as Hayes or Ealing Broadway could be reached directly. Sir James Milne would be turning in his grave!

Looking at this from the west it can only be described as a deterioration - it does not help to build back train travel.

Unfortunately, for many years now the way rail travel seems to be going is to make things more difficult or longer travelling times for those travelling either with stopping at stations or having to change trains where they did not have to previously. I will not name services that have changed other than to say a fair amount of them are mentioned in a Speculation thread that I started which is https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...perating-trains-into-other-tocs-areas.236380/.

That having been said, you do now have a service that can take you from the West of London to the Est of London now, without having to get off at Paddington use the tune to get to Liverpool Street to then travel on to Abbey Wood.

But if you look back to when Thameslink started, there was similar issues caused when those trains started services from Brighton across London to Bedford. Some of those issues still exist 34 years later.

 

[JonathanH]

Obviously it's not so simple to fit the trains in, but at off peak the XR trains are still timed incredibly inconveniently, and in some cases at midday you are looking at more than 20 minutes to change at Reading for a XR train from GWR stopper.

I dont understand what issue you think there is. There are connections between Didcot stoppers and Crossrail trains at Maidenhead, not so much Reading, in the off-peak.

I also find it slightly amusing that to get to GWR's own Greenford shuttle from the West will require at least 2 changes from Reading (XR to Hayes, Heathrow XR to West Ealing), their biggest served station outside London, unless you want to shell out for a travelcard, or ticket to Paddington.

Again, how many people are going to do that? Reading trains have nearly never called at West Ealing, even when it was Thames Trains, and before that British Rail.

 

[Benjwri]

I dont understand what issue you think there is. There are connections between Didcot stoppers and Crossrail trains at Maidenhead, not so much Reading, in the off-peak

This is a fair point, which I did not think of, I was still thinking of the old service pattern.

Again, how many people are going to do that? Reading trains have nearly never called at West Ealing, even when it was Thames Trains, and before that British Rail.

There has never been a direct service, but it has always only been one change from the GWR network. You have got a GWR route now which is two changes from a GWR train, which is just slightly non sensical. Although this is perhaps more a comment on the fact the route is still run by GWR rather than Crossrail, so perhaps a bit off topic.

 

[coppercapped]

Possibly. But I imagine the bean counters have checked the numbers and the number of people making the journeys are deemed sufficiently small. Even then, this isn't Crossrail / TfL / Elizabeth Line's problem.

But the timetabling of the GWR trains is largely set by the intensity of the Crossrail service so it is to a certain extent Crossrail's problem.

TfL often has a standard pattern of services and most people are heading inward or outward depending on time of day. One exception would be school children. I agree it will be a loss, but is it a loss to benefit a greater proportion of people? Some very lightly used stations between Reading - Didcot.

I dont understand what issue you think there is. There are connections between Didcot stoppers and Crossrail trains at Maidenhead, not so much Reading, in the off-peak.

But these Didcot stoppers will still have dwell times of up to nearly a quarter of an hour at Reading. How is that attractive?

Again, how many people are going to do that? Reading trains have nearly never called at West Ealing, even when it was Thames Trains, and before that British Rail.

The basis of these issues is that Crossrail is so expensive that any change which might reduce its attractiveness cannot be countenanced - even if it affects people fifty or sixty miles from London.

Crossrail serves its market closer to London very well but ideally its western terminus should have been at Slough which is roughly the same distance from London's centre as Shenfield. It would have made for a more balanced service. Unfortunately there was not enough space available at Slough for six stabling sidings - although there would have been space for a central reversing siding between the Up and Down Relief lines - whilst the old goods yard at Maidenhead was large enough. So the western terminus had to be at Maidenhead, which is why we are where we are.

 

[43096]

There has never been a direct service, but it has always only been one change from the GWR network. You have got a GWR route now which is two changes from a GWR train, which is just slightly non sensical. Although this is perhaps more a comment on the fact the route is still run by GWR rather than Crossrail, so perhaps a bit off topic.

Eh? It's been change at Hayes, change at West Ealing since a long time. It doesn't matter if the operator is GWR, Liz Line, Bob Fleming's Country Trains or any other operator.

 

[Benjwri]

Eh? It's been change at Hayes, change at West Ealing since a long time. It doesn't matter if the operator is GWR, Liz Line, Bob Fleming's Country Trains or any other operator.

Yes, I should have been more clear. It is currently one change to get to West Ealing. In future it will be 2 changes to get to West Ealing from any possible GWR service you can get. For example from an IET, or stopper from West of Reading, you have to change at Reading, or Twyford/Maidenhead etc, onto a XR train to Hayes, then onto another XR train to West Ealing, as GWR will no longer be calling at Hayes.

 

[VideozVideoz]

rtt is showing an outline of what the service could be from the 6th November

it appears that Westbound:
Off-peak:
[ ] 2tph Reading
[ ] 2tph Maidenhead
[ ] 2tph Heathrow Terminal 5
[ ] 2tph Heathrow Terminal 4
[ ] 8tph Paddington (From Shenfield)

Peak:
[ ] 4tph Reading
[ ] 2tph Heathrow Terminal 5
[ ] 2tph Heathrow Terminal 4
[ ] 2tph Paddington (From Abbey Wood)
[ ] 12tph Paddington (From Shenfield)

With all Heathrow and Reading trains coming from Abbey Wood as expected

What a shame. I was hoping the through services to heathrow would increase to every 10mins, not 2tph. I often have to get from the other side of London to Heathrow area and the waiting up to 30MINS at Paddington is annoying.

Out of interest, how will the through running work because coming into Paddington, I have to go up a level to catch the Heathrow-bound Service? I don’t really know the track layout

 

[otter11]

What a shame. I was hoping the through services to heathrow would increase to every 10mins, not 2tph. I often have to get from the other side of London to Heathrow area and the waiting up to 30MINS at Paddington is annoying.

Out of interest, how will the through running work because coming into Paddington, I have to go up a level to catch the Heathrow-bound Service? I don’t really know the track layout

It’s 2tph to each of Heathrow T4 and T5, so trains every 15 minutes. From May 2023 it will increase to 6tph.

From November you won’t need to go up a level at Paddington, the train will continue west through a tunnel and come out near Westbourne Park.

 

[Snow1964]

Eh? It's been change at Hayes, change at West Ealing since a long time. It doesn't matter if the operator is GWR, Liz Line, Bob Fleming's Country Trains or any other operator.

The significance of Hayes and Harlington is that is where the frequent Elizabeth line service starts.

Of course you can change further west, but frequency is so much lower changing further out can add anything upto 30 minutes extra (actually a bit more as Reading station is so big, the official connection times are longer).

So really the whole argument is that trains from the west would be much better making connections at Hayes than expecting people to change at somewhere like Maidenhead or Reading (where they just happen to stop anyway because of the towns size).

There tends to be an assumption that everyone wants to go to Paddington to change, even though some might want Central or District line at Ealing or even have a destination of Ealing or Acton.

It is a very similar argument to why the mainline island platform was built at Stratford, not everyone wants the London terminus, or wants to get a stopping train for last 20 miles towards London if destination is before the terminus.

 

[Benjwri]

There tends to be an assumption that everyone wants to go to Paddington to change, even though some might want Central or District line at Ealing or even have a destination of Ealing or Acton.

This is very true, especially when you take into account that a ticket through Paddington can often cost £10+ more. Plus Hayes is an extremely important connection for anyone from Reading etc, who want to take a train to Heathrow, rather than having to travel via Paddington and the HX, or take the entire XR line, which will get even harder with luggage once through running begins.

 

[JonathanH]

It is a very similar argument to why the mainline island platform was built at Stratford, not everyone wants the London terminus, or wants to get a stopping train for last 20 miles towards London if destination is before the terminus.

Yes, but Hayes & Harlington simply doesn't have the same connectivity of Stratford. The more analogous station to Hayes & Harlington on the east side is Romford. My impression of demand on fast line services at Romford is that it is seen as a fast way of getting into London rather more than somewhere people change to make connections.

This is very true, especially when you take into account that a ticket through Paddington can often cost £10+ more.

Building infrastructure to enable passengers to save money is never going to go down well - see discussions in other threads regarding fast line services stopping at New Cross Gate.

Plus Hayes is an extremely important connection for anyone from Reading etc, who want to take a train to Heathrow, rather than having to travel via Paddington and the HX, or take the entire XR line, which will get even harder with luggage once through running begins.

Is it 'extremely important'? I get the impression that the number of passengers changing at Hayes & Harlington hasn't really developed to any great extent.

People on long distance trains with luggage often prefer to travel to terminal stations in any case (or stations with a long dwell time where that is not possible) where they have much more time to get off the train and find their way to the next one at their leisure.

 

[Benjwri]

Is it 'extremely important'? I get the impression that the number of passengers changing at Hayes & Harlington hasn't really developed to any great extent.

People on long distance trains with luggage often prefer to travel to terminal stations in any case (or stations with a long dwell time where that is not possible) where they have much more time to get off the train and find their way to the next one at their leisure

I travelled via Hayes a week ago, during the week, and a good number of people got off the train there with luggage for the airport. Once through running starts and GWR stops stopping at Hayes, they will either have to take XR from Reading to Hayes, which takes longer and doesn't have luggage racks etc, or travel all the way into London, then drag that luggage across the entire concourse, and down into the XR platforms. I hardly think anyone would prefer that over a change at Hayes.

 

[coppercapped]

Residual means what remains after the greater part has gone this perfectly describes the Didcot stoppers as the majority of the inner suburban services are now operated by tfl rail

Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted what you wrote. I thought that you meant that the stopping service to Didcot had been thinned down. We are then, in agreement!

 

[Horizon22]

What a shame. I was hoping the through services to heathrow would increase to every 10mins, not 2tph. I often have to get from the other side of London to Heathrow area and the waiting up to 30MINS at Paddington is annoying.

Out of interest, how will the through running work because coming into Paddington, I have to go up a level to catch the Heathrow-bound Service? I don’t really know the track layout

Just a same platform change at Paddington. Every Elizabeth line service will run through the core section (excepting the very early morning and late night) from November.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2022 ==

But the timetabling of the GWR trains is largely set by the intensity of the Crossrail service so it is to a certain extent Crossrail's problem.



But these Didcot stoppers will still have dwell times of up to nearly a quarter of an hour at Reading. How is that attractive?

The basis of these issues is that Crossrail is so expensive that any change which might reduce its attractiveness cannot be countenanced - even if it affects people fifty or sixty miles from London.

My point is that Crossrail / Elizabeth line have to run a core service. There are no changes to that service, and in fact a better service for anyone east of Maidenhead and indeed no worse for Reading or Twyford (and if you’re looking to get into London, even better as it’s quicker if it’s fast from Slough).

Yes it’s more changes for those going to the intermediates from west of Reading but as I said the numbers doing that are likely to be smaller than those benefitting from either a) an increased frequency Elizabeth line service or b) a faster service to London from Slough, Maidenhead or Twyford. The line is better serving it’s core base at the expense of those outside the key area. But you are right this stems from the fact that Reading is a lot further away than Shenfield.

 

[345 050]

I wouldn't be surprised if a fairly high number of passengers from SE-land switch to EL at Abbey Wood. Depends on final destination of course, but if you are headed for Bond Street or Tottenham Court Road, EL is absolutely going to be quicker. Even traveling to Farringdon, it will be quicker to get off your Thameslink train and change to EL at Abbey Wood!

Indeed. Only if Crossrail had extended to Dartford from Abbey Wood would result in good number of riderships.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't be surprised if a fairly high number of passengers from SE-land switch to EL at Abbey Wood. Depends on final destination of course, but if you are headed for Bond Street or Tottenham Court Road, EL is absolutely going to be quicker. Even traveling to Farringdon, it will be quicker to get off your Thameslink train and change to EL at Abbey Wood!

yes they already do.

 

[hkstudent]

yes they already do.

Yeah, by observing the interchange footbridges at Abbey Wood, it shows the case.

Of course, one of the reason why Bexley and Kent want an Crossrail extension is to want to get the frequency on North Kent Line be uplifted to support housing development.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wouldn't be surprised if a fairly high number of passengers from SE-land switch to EL at Abbey Wood. Depends on final destination of course, but if you are headed for Bond Street or Tottenham Court Road, EL is absolutely going to be quicker. Even traveling to Farringdon, it will be quicker to get off your Thameslink train and change to EL at Abbey Wood!

The prediction in the last Kent route study was that about 50% of passengers would transfer from SE to Crossrail at Abbey Wood. I posted the figures in post #328 a while ago in this thread:

Crossrail - Construction updates and progress towards opening (now expected 24 May 2022)

I mean what are they going to do, declare it's time to "shut her down" because they need £150m more on an 18bn budget? Yeah, right. There should probably be an inquiry about the cost overruns but it's likely not going to hold up the project. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that certain...

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