Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[JonathanH]

Could even run GWR services from Paddington to Oxford every hour through the night aswell (Oxford Tube (the coach that runs along the M40) runs all night so some journeys are clearly being made).

Given there is a viable coach to Oxford, why does there need to be a train service? Railways have to be maintained overnight and large stations have to be staffed if an overnight train runs.

Anyway, it is totally speculative to consider timetables that aren't being implemented. The first step is to get Crossrail running reliably and within the hours it is planned for.

 

[hkstudent]

For a start there are only six sidings at Maidenhead and probably a reluctance to have lots of empty running back to London once two-track railway kicks in. There is a practical limit on getting 345s back to Old Oak Common if they ran later to Reading.



Why is there a fascination with loads of trains to Reading? There is a central turnback siding at Maidenhead and the demand falls off quite a bit before the London boundary is reached. GWR's proposal is to still run services calling at Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford.

I think let's make Elizabeth Line take over the Didcot Parkway service so that there will be making a 4tph through service from central and east London to Reading. That would be more efficient use of slots and reduce the conflict of trains from slow line going to Paddington high level and from Elizabeth Line core section.

 

[Horizon22]

Ah I've used those rattlers from Paddington to / from Reading many a time in my younger years. Nice to know the option's still there for the whippersnappers!

Not so rattling these days! Now formed of a 4-car or 8-car 387

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

Part of me wonders why they don't just run a proper night service - the fact a skeleton service runs means the line is open anyway.

Something like a TfL operated 2tph all stops Paddington (main shed) to Reading running all night would probably work quite well and have half decent usage.

Could even run GWR services from Paddington to Oxford every hour through the night aswell (Oxford Tube (the coach that runs along the M40) runs all night so some journeys are clearly being made).

It’s much easier for GWR to run into Reading depot at the end of the night. MTR running into Maidenhead might not be feasible if the relief lines are blocked. And then there’s something probably around access agreements and diagrams / night working.

In addition MTR agreed on staffing from “first train to last train”. This is already noticeable (the last Maidenhead service doesn’t call at Burnham and Taplow). So there would no doubt be extra costs there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

I think let's make Elizabeth Line take over the Didcot Parkway service so that there will be making a 4tph through service from central and east London to Reading. That would be more efficient use of slots and reduce the conflict of trains from slow line going to Paddington high level and from Elizabeth Line core section.

As stated above, it is likely the GWR Didcot Parkway service may not be on the relief lines much longer and certainly not by Paddington. That being said 2tph is not a huge conflict even if it did happen.

Reading was already an extension for the original Maidenhead termination; Didcot Parkway really is significantly beyond Greater London.

 

[hwl]

There are a couple of benches in the middle of the platform, adjacent to the link to the Bakerloo. Not a huge number though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==


There are 2 different issues though. I don't think the 5 minute wait time at Westbourne Park sidings is related to the software issues, it's related to the timetable, based on what I've read in this forum? So if the timetable is problematic for through running, why isn't it being fixed in December?

Two main factors at work here:

1. Changing the Crossrail timetable also needs extensive changes to a number of GWR services on both the Relief (main impact) and Main lines.

Due to Crossrail uncertainty GWR (and ORR+ others) would only go for May 2023 due to wanting a high level of certainty, they didn't want to go for December and see it kicked back again (which it would have been).

2. The timetable change is reliant on Crossrail and partners addressing the software issues, there is also a hidden impact in that staff and unit requirements for given service level are higher without it, additionally there are also still staff requirements for testing, which then constrain what can sensible be run before the software is addressed. e.g. the drivers for future later services are currently reallocated to more inefficient turnarounds and twiddling thumbs at Westbourne Park for several minutes etc. earlier in the the day instead!

Well one major factor is that, in exchange for agreeing to the "off pattern" timetable change in November, they've promised ASLEF there won't be any more changes to drivers' diagrams until May... as well as a load of other sweeteners such as uncovered work defaulting to Rest Day Work rather than spares.

That was agreed after then knew it was May 2023 hence very easy to agree to! What ASLEF wanted was TfL not doing lots of changes every few weeks in early 2023 as thing bed in (hopefully including software) and then try to tweak staff rotas at short notice to maximise what they could run with Crossrail at any point in time.

 

[Jimini]

Not so rattling these days! Now formed of a 4-car or 8-car 387

Indeed -- gone are the days of the Thames Turbo Reading Riviera

 

[43096]

Not so rattling these days! Now formed of a 4-car or 8-car 387

Although the 0355 Reading-Paddington is worked by a 2-car 165; this service being used to swap over the Greenford branch unit.

 

[coppercapped]

I think let's make Elizabeth Line take over the Didcot Parkway service so that there will be making a 4tph through service from central and east London to Reading. That would be more efficient use of slots and reduce the conflict of trains from slow line going to Paddington high level and from Elizabeth Line core section.

Once again, the suburban electric service terminating at Didcot Parkway only exists because the overhead electrification to Oxford was cut back as a result of Network Rail's overspend on the Great Western modernisation project. The natural end point of this service was, and will again be, Oxford.

Why so many posters on this forum think that the local service to Reading needs four stopping trains per hour is bizarre. While there might be an argument for a frequent service out to Heathrow and, possibly, Slough the market requirements change considerably once past that point. The service characteristics are no longer those required for a densely populated built-up area but need to be suitable for inter-urban travel between separated towns and villages. Nine coach long trains with metro-style seats and no on-board passenger facilities are neither economic nor attractive for that kind of service; such a high frequency high capacity local service is a solution looking for a problem.

Even if there were four stopping trains per hour to Reading from Paddington, there will continue to be a greater number per hour and much faster longer distance trains between these two points. West of about Slough Crossrail's 'all stations' approach is only of interest for, say, Twyford - Burnham or Maidenhead - Reading local travellers; not enough to make nine coach trains economic.

I will say again - if there is a desire for a more frequent Crossrail service on the Great Western Relief Lines west of Paddington then TfL should build more tracks for its exclusive use rather than causing a deterioration in quality in terms of speed, frequency and operating flexibility of the longer distance passenger and freight services in this corridor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

Indeed -- gone are the days of the Thames Turbo Reading Riviera

Eh?

If you wanted rattles, then the Pressed Steel units were what you wanted...

 

[Acton1991]

Once again, the suburban electric service terminating at Didcot Parkway only exists because the overhead electrification to Oxford was cut back as a result of Network Rail's overspend on the Great Western modernisation project. The natural end point of this service was, and will again be, Oxford.

Why so many posters on this forum think that the local service to Reading needs four stopping trains per hour is bizarre. While there might be an argument for a frequent service out to Heathrow and, possibly, Slough the market requirements change considerably once past that point. The service characteristics are no longer those required for a densely populated built-up area but need to be suitable for inter-urban travel between separated towns and villages. Nine coach long trains with metro-style seats and no on-board passenger facilities are neither economic nor attractive for that kind of service; such a high frequency high capacity local service is a solution looking for a problem.

Even if there were four stopping trains per hour to Reading from Paddington, there will continue to be a greater number per hour and much faster longer distance trains between these two points. West of about Slough Crossrail's 'all stations' approach is only of interest for, say, Twyford - Burnham or Maidenhead - Reading local travellers; not enough to make nine coach trains economic.

I will say again - if there is a desire for a more frequent Crossrail service on the Great Western Relief Lines west of Paddington then TfL should build more tracks for its exclusive use rather than causing a deterioration in quality in terms of speed, frequency and operating flexibility of the longer distance passenger and freight services in this corridor.

Couldn't have said it better. Reading - Slough doesn't need a metro style service. The obsession with extending the Elizabeth line service to Didcot is farcical! I do, however, think that each station within Greater London should receive a similar level of service vs the stop-skipping that continues to be in the plan.

 

[hkstudent]

Once again, the suburban electric service terminating at Didcot Parkway only exists because the overhead electrification to Oxford was cut back as a result of Network Rail's overspend on the Great Western modernisation project. The natural end point of this service was, and will again be, Oxford.

Why so many posters on this forum think that the local service to Reading needs four stopping trains per hour is bizarre. While there might be an argument for a frequent service out to Heathrow and, possibly, Slough the market requirements change considerably once past that point. The service characteristics are no longer those required for a densely populated built-up area but need to be suitable for inter-urban travel between separated towns and villages. Nine coach long trains with metro-style seats and no on-board passenger facilities are neither economic nor attractive for that kind of service; such a high frequency high capacity local service is a solution looking for a problem.

Even if there were four stopping trains per hour to Reading from Paddington, there will continue to be a greater number per hour and much faster longer distance trains between these two points. West of about Slough Crossrail's 'all stations' approach is only of interest for, say, Twyford - Burnham or Maidenhead - Reading local travellers; not enough to make nine coach trains economic.

I will say again - if there is a desire for a more frequent Crossrail service on the Great Western Relief Lines west of Paddington then TfL should build more tracks for its exclusive use rather than causing a deterioration in quality in terms of speed, frequency and operating flexibility of the longer distance passenger and freight services in this corridor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==


Eh?

If you wanted rattles, then the Pressed Steel units were what you wanted...

The Elizabeth Line service to Reading is not a all stopper but also a semi fast service within Greater London. Getting Elizabeth Line service doesn't mean the stopping pattern must be all stopper out of London.
Giving a through service to passengers west of Reading while having semi fast running pattern is the best of both worlds.

 

[matt_world2004]

Didnt there used to be an hourly fgw service overnight on weekdays that was cut back to two hourly to accommodate crossrail engineering works.

 

[Horizon22]

Didnt there used to be an hourly fgw service overnight on weekdays that was cut back to two hourly to accommodate crossrail engineering works.

As someone posted above earlier, it still runs at 0034, 0134, 0334.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

Couldn't have said it better. Reading - Slough doesn't need a metro style service. The obsession with extending the Elizabeth line service to Didcot is farcical! I do, however, think that each station within Greater London should receive a similar level of service vs the stop-skipping that continues to be in the plan.

In what sense? Only Acton Mainline, West Ealing and Hanwell are in Greater London and don't get the Reading stops and that would unnecessarily slow down the Reading service for those in Berkshire. They get 4tph, which is more than (until November) the 2tph Reading services.

 

[JonathanH]

In what sense? Only Acton Mainline, West Ealing and Hanwell are in Greater London and don't get the Reading stops and that would unnecessarily slow down the Reading service for those in Berkshire. They get 4tph, which is more than (until November) the 2tph Reading services.

I suspect some people won't be happy until there are "underground frequencies" at every station up to the London boundary, despite the fact that the capacity offered by one 345 is loads more than an underground train.

 

[Horizon22]

I suspect some people won't be happy until there are "underground frequencies" at every station up to the London boundary.

It does seem some of the posts here are getting a tad speculative. The Elizabeth line wasn't going to suddenly double frequencies in the West or start serving locations 50 miles away from London!

 

[matt_world2004]

As someone posted above earlier, it still runs at 0034, 0134, 0334.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

Between 0134 and 0334 is two hourly.

 

[Horizon22]

Although the 0355 Reading-Paddington is worked by a 2-car 165; this service being used to swap over the Greenford branch unit.

Well yes and it gets a unit to the branch in the morning, forming the 0540 back, and coupling up to form the 0032 back to Oxford.

Between 0134 and 0334 is two hourly.

Not sure where there was last a departure in the 0200-0300. Really are in the witching hour then. You’d also need another unit diagram.

 

[DC1989]

For most of the day 100% Paddington with a few shoulder peak services per day going West of Paddington that help with unit rotation though Old Oak Common and stepping up to /down from 24tph peak service levels

This can't be true. I live on the Eastern section and all I've read for the last 10 years etc is about getting one Train to Heathrow. Even the last announcement was erroneously thought to be the through running from East of Stratford direct to Heathrow announcement. Everyone had to correct prople that no Paddington first then Heathrow in may.i can't believe this isn't true. It's not an east to west railway otherwise is it? (Woolwich and abbey wood are no way 'east London ')

 

[Falcon1200]

It's not an east to west railway otherwise is it? (Woolwich and abbey wood are no way 'east London ')

How is it not an east to west railway, given that Woolwich and Abbey Wood are both east of London ?!!

I will say again - if there is a desire for a more frequent Crossrail service on the Great Western Relief Lines west of Paddington then TfL should build more tracks for its exclusive use rather than causing a deterioration in quality in terms of speed, frequency and operating flexibility of the longer distance passenger and freight services in this corridor.

Agree, especially as the long distance, freight (and outer suburban) services existed long before Crossrail was conceived, and should not be disadvantaged by the newcomer. The LNWR's New Lines out to Watford show how it should be done (although admittedly things were a bit different when they were built....)

 

[XAM2175]

This can't be true. I live on the Eastern section and all I've read for the last 10 years etc is about getting one Train to Heathrow. Even the last announcement was erroneously thought to be the through running from East of Stratford direct to Heathrow announcement. Everyone had to correct prople that no Paddington first then Heathrow in may.i can't believe this isn't true. It's not an east to west railway otherwise is it? (Woolwich and abbey wood are no way 'east London ')

It's a same-platform change to a following train. Surely you can accept that this is an enormous improvement over the previous arrangements even if it isn't 100% exactly perfectly what you wanted?

 

[43066]

Woolwich and abbey wood are no way 'east London

Eh?

They are on the south bank of the river directly opposite city airport and the old docklands area, east of Canary Wharf, Greenwich. Even east of the Thames Barrier. Not sure how you could possibly describe these locations as “in no way east London”!

 

[stuu]

Eh?

They are on the south bank of the river directly opposite city airport and the old docklands area, east of Canary Wharf, Greenwich. Even east of the Thames Barrier. Not sure how you could possibly describe these locations as “in no way east London”!

Geographically of course, but East London has always referred to North of the Thames. Woolwich has always been referred to as South East London

 

[Horizon22]

This can't be true. I live on the Eastern section and all I've read for the last 10 years etc is about getting one Train to Heathrow. Even the last announcement was erroneously thought to be the through running from East of Stratford direct to Heathrow announcement. Everyone had to correct prople that no Paddington first then Heathrow in may.i can't believe this isn't true. It's not an east to west railway otherwise is it? (Woolwich and abbey wood are no way 'east London ')

You are correct. No through East-West services and unlikely to be very many in May.

That being said as others have mentioned, it’s a simple same-platform change with probably about a 5 minute for a train to Hayes, perhaps more depending on whether you want a Reading or Heathrow service. That’s very good connectivity.

 

[JonathanH]

I live on the Eastern section and all I've read for the last 10 years etc is about getting one Train to Heathrow.

As a matter of interest, is Heathrow the only destination you are concerned about travelling to on the west side? Do you frequently travel to Ealing, Southall etc?

I dont think the demand for through travel from stations west of Paddington and east of Whitechapel towards Stratford can be that significant.

 

[kevin_roche]

For those wanting more Reading to London stopping services. It is worth remembering that the plan for a Western Access to Heathrow is on hold but will eventually make use of the relief lines to Langley.

 

[JonathanH]

For those wanting more Reading to London stopping services. It is worth remembering that the plan for a Western Access to Heathrow is on hold but will eventually make use of the relief lines to Langley.

'Eventually' might be a very long time.

 

[coppercapped]

The Elizabeth Line service to Reading is not a all stopper but also a semi fast service within Greater London. Getting Elizabeth Line service doesn't mean the stopping pattern must be all stopper out of London.
Giving a through service to passengers west of Reading while having semi fast running pattern is the best of both worlds.

Isn't it difficult to be brief without being absolutely clear what one means? When I wrote 'stopping' I did not mean 'stopping at all stations' but trains which stop more often than not at the stations they pass.

There seems to be two schools of thought at play in this thread: (a) all Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains should call at all the stations between their origin and terminating points and (b) they could/should stop at selected stations only - at least during part of their itinerary.

Option (a) is the simplest to market but has the disadvantage that the journey time is increased for those places furthest from the centre. In the case of Reading this doesn't matter as there are many alternative trains which take less than half the time to reach London. The issue is more pressing for those separate settlements between Reading and, arguably, Slough which would/could have journey times to London which are less competitive than they could be - towns such as Twyford, Maidenhead and indeed Slough.

These are the towns which benefit for a reduced number of stops closer to London and the outer suburban service which used to run through to Oxford (now cut back to Didcot) did exactly this. It also permitted cross-Reading journeys such as Tilehurst to Twyford or Radley or Cholsey to Maidenhead to be made without changing trains.

Together with the two Elizabeth line trains per hour which terminate at Reading a four trains per hour service was possible for the principle stations out to Reading which is quite sufficient for the traffic on offer. In truth the Elizabeth line has not increased the service west of Maidenhead as it is essentially simply the re-badged 2 trains per hour suburban service which for many years has terminated at Reading.

The issue now is that the increased usage of the Relief Lines by the Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains closer to London means that it has become very difficult to path the Oxford trains on the Reliefs east of Reading and I understand that in future these will now run on the Mains from Dolphin Junction to Paddington.

This comes at a cost - it introduces a 40mph flat crossing move to and from the 125mph Mains with all the potential for interruption and delay that such a move brings with it. There are some ten or a dozen off-peak departures from Paddington which use the Mains and an equivalent number of Up trains. These semi-fast Didcot (and Oxford) trains must now be slotted into this pattern - and it is only possible because some Main Line paths have been freed because the non-stop Bristol - London trains will not be running for the foreseeable future.

For those wanting more Reading to London stopping services. It is worth remembering that the plan for a Western Access to Heathrow is on hold but will eventually make use of the relief lines to Langley.

Absolutely, one hopes that by the time it is operational TfL has built its own reserved tracks at least to Heathrow Airport Junction...

But this lack of knowledge or understanding of the realities of train operation seems inherent. Nobody has mentioned or acknowledged that pathing issues occur west of Reading as well and trying to fit more Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains onto the Reliefs will have knock-on effects further west. For example there is a roughly hourly container train in each direction from Southampton to the Midlands and points further north using the Reliefs from Reading West Junction to Didcot East Junction and on through Oxford. These are 750 metre long 75mph trains which take time to clear junctions and do not accelerate very quickly. Equally the Cross-Country trains through Reading also frequently use the Reliefs - which is why they are cleared for 100mph between Reading and Didcot. The passenger outer-suburban trains have to fit in with these patterns as well. Even changing times by a minute or so can have effects at Trafford Park...

 

[345 050]

Although the 0355 Reading-Paddington is worked by a 2-car 165; this service being used to swap over the Greenford branch unit.

Almost worth getting up extra early for that...

 

[Basil Jet]

Almost worth getting up extra early for that...

You have to hurry up, Greenford is getting a battery train soon. Actually, the Vivarail would probably be too slow for a Reading-Paddington run, so I guess it will run ECS to and from the branch.

 

[Acton1991]

For those wanting more Reading to London stopping services. It is worth remembering that the plan for a Western Access to Heathrow is on hold but will eventually make use of the relief lines to Langley.

We also have the extra two paths that TfL will take from GWR on the reliefs, believed to be a further 2 Heathrow services

 

[cambsy]

Ill go up London, some time anfter November 6th, on a Saturday, of course when not engineering disruption etc, to see how the through services run, and which stops are the busiest, now through services are running, as when I did my first trip on Sat May 28th, Paddington and Liverpool St were the busiest in core and Custom House because of Excel event. I have got the impression, which may be wrong, that the Whitechapel-Abbey Wood section, is yet to get busy as the core, at least at weekends, Have i got thus right?.

Will the Eastern branch to Sheffield and the Western branch to Heathrow and reading, pick up passenger flow quicker than Abbey Wood? And what do people think will be the busiest sections once through running? Or will the whole system Elizabeth line be noticeably busier Once through running?.

 

[JonathanH]

I have got the impression, which may be wrong, that the Whitechapel-Abbey Wood section, is yet to get busy as the core, at least at weekends

I don't think anyone would expect the Whitechapel to Abbey Wood section to be as busy as the core part of the route, particularly at the weekend. It is brand new railway and, with the the best will in the world, Abbey Wood isn't a 'destination place' lots of people are going to want to travel to, in the same way that Central London is. There has been residential development at Woolwich which should result in custom.

Will the Eastern branch to Sheffield and the Western branch to Heathrow and reading, pick up passenger flow quicker than Abbey Wood?

Remember that Stratford to Shenfield and Paddington to Heathrow / West Drayton are not new railways.

The eastern route to Shenfield is already a very busy railway (particularly between Stratford and Romford). The western side isn't so busy, but equally, a lot of passengers travel west of Ealing Broadway having come off the Central Line. The passenger flow is therefore 'already there' and through running should mean that passengers stay on rather than changing to the Central Line, although clearly destination is important. For example, Crossrail won't change flows between Southall and Shepherds Bush.

Or will the whole system Elizabeth line be noticeably busier Once through running?.

You would hope it would be busier but it will take time for people to more or change their activities because of the new connections.