Can drivers take money without issuing tickets?

[yorkie]

From another thread:

What are they trying to catch the bus drivers doing?

Pocketing the money without issuing tickets...

Does this still happen?

Are there any procedures/safeguards in place to prevent it?

I recently caught a bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton; the driver took cash only and did not issue tickets. Is that allowed and does it occur elsewhere?

On other routes, where a ticket machine has been out of action, my experience has been that the driver has said that no charge would be made.

 

[markymark2000]

From another thread:


Does this still happen?

Are there any procedures/safeguards in place to prevent it?

I recently caught a bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton; the driver took cash only and did not issue tickets. Is that allowed and does it occur elsewhere?

On other routes, where a ticket machine has been out of action, my experience has been that the driver has said that no charge would be made.

I believe without a ticket, you're not insured.

There are still people who try to pocket cash by not printing tickets but I think it's few and far between now versus how it used to be.


Inspectors on buses are almost none existent. Stagecoach say there must be 2 inspectors at a time for safety reasons and yet MCSL for example only has 1 person so they often don't do anything at all because they cant. I think companies see the lost revenue is so low that it's not worth chasing.

 

[yorkie]

I believe without a ticket, you're not insured.

That's a myth.

 

[markymark2000]

That's a myth.

Of course else how would TapInTapOff be possible. I didn't think haha.

 

[PG]

I recently caught a bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton; the driver took cash only and did not issue tickets. Is that allowed and does it occur elsewhere?

Given the location, was the driver a certain infamous political adviser checking his eyesight, so couldn't focus on the ticket machine?

 

[danm14]

From another thread:


Does this still happen?

Are there any procedures/safeguards in place to prevent it?

I recently caught a bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton; the driver took cash only and did not issue tickets. Is that allowed and does it occur elsewhere?

On other routes, where a ticket machine has been out of action, my experience has been that the driver has said that no charge would be made.

Several of the smaller private operators in Ireland do not issue tickets for one-way journeys at all, and have reusable tickets (often specially printed business cards) for return journeys which are collected by the driver on the return journey and then given out again and again until they're too tattered.

From memory, I believe there is no actual requirement either in Irish or EU law for tickets to be issued on bus and coach services, unless the route is over a certain (very long) distance, something like 300km. Whether there is such a requirement in the UK, I am unsure.

 

[Towers]

One scam, I would imagine quite common, that existed a few years back was to take payment for a fare and then hit the 'concessionary pass' button on the machine, which would issue a ticket with a value of £0.00 (this was at the time a requirement of the concessionary scheme in order to record the number of journeys). It worked best I presume with customers who were likely to be less aware of/interested in what it said on their ticket - a relative with industry background caught a driver doing it at a company he'd worked for, on the way home with a friend after a curry and a few beverages!

I presume nowadays concessionary passes are acknowledged just by hitting a button and recording it on the machine, or the passes are issued in smartcard form?

 

[Geordie driver]

Pre all buses having CCTV inspectors or secret shopper style passengers were only there to catch drivers fiddling, in 20 years I never saw a passenger issued with a penalty ticket.

My company gave you one chance. If you were caught fiddling it was a final written warning, ever caught again and you were out, fair ( or fare!) enough.

There is no way companies would accept revenue not being recorded, that's what tickets are for. I was told when I started I would never see an inspector after 10pm or one a route known for trouble, especially schools, and I never did.

Some drivers never kept a penny, some drivers took enough for a breakfast, some drivers kept more than their wages.

Not me mind, I always paid in the company's full 65% of my takings.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Obviously it's much less of an issue now as less fares are paid cash.
ENCTS passes are ITSO and most companies scan them as it's cheaper for councils so they'll often provide the necessary equipment, particularly for smaller operators.
In theory, if a ticket machine breaks the driver will have an emergency ticket book to write out tickets. In reality they'll either give a free ride or just cash-in the money to prove they took it. Many firms will stop any short-payment out of the drivers wages. But, any overpayment they give the driver in their wages! So it's easy enough to cash the money in and get it back anyway. But should a ticket discrepancy come to light, you can prove you paid the money in so weren't intending to defraud the company. Obviously it's taken back out of your wages then as it's the companies money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not me mind, I always paid in the companies full 65% of my takings.

65%? Were you essentally paid partly by way of retaining 35% of the farebox? Curious.

 

[Dai Corner]

Obviously it's much less of an issue now as less fares are paid cash.
ENCTS passes are ITSO and most companies scan them as it's cheaper for councils so they'll often provide the necessary equipment, particularly for smaller operators.
In theory, if a ticket machine breaks the driver will have an emergency ticket book to write out tickets. In reality they'll either give a free ride or just cash-in the money to prove they took it. Many firms will stop any short-payment out of the drivers wages. But, any overpayment they give the driver in their wages! So it's easy enough to cash the money in and get it back anyway. But should a ticket discrepancy come to light, you can prove you paid the money in so weren't intending to defraud the company. Obviously it's taken back out of your wages then as it's the companies money.

I wonder what happens in the case of companies who have 'vaults' for cash fares which drivers have no access to and don't give change?

 

[Geordie driver]

Obviously it's much less of an issue now as less fares are paid cash.
ENCTS passes are ITSO and most companies scan them as it's cheaper for councils so they'll often provide the necessary equipment, particularly for smaller operators.
In theory, if a ticket machine breaks the driver will have an emergency ticket book to write out tickets. In reality they'll either give a free ride or just cash-in the money to prove they took it. Many firms will stop any short-payment out of the drivers wages. But, any overpayment they give the driver in their wages! So it's easy enough to cash the money in and get it back anyway. But should a ticket discrepancy come to light, you can prove you paid the money in so weren't intending to defraud the company. Obviously it's taken back out of your wages then as it's the companies money.

In the old days, before cashing in machines, shorts were taken out of your wages, fake pound coins would be stamped with a hole, returned to you and a pound taken out of your wages, one of the reasons drivers don't like notes as fakes are taken from your wages.

Any payment over would be kept by the company, but with modern cash counting machines I can't see why anyone would pay in surplus. I once took a £5 coin ( royal wedding issue. IIRC) from a very apologetic punter as they we really skint, company refused to honour it and took the £5 from my wages.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I wonder what happens in the case of companies who have 'vaults' for cash fares which drivers have no access to and don't give change?

I suspect the company keeps it all, as the driver has no access to, or involvement with, it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2022 ==

In the old days, before cashing in machines, shorts were taken out of your wages, fake pound coins would be stamped with a hole, returned to you and a pound taken out of your wages, one of the reasons drivers don't like notes as fakes are taken from your wages.

Any payment over would be kept by the company, but with modern cash counting machines I can't see why anyone would pay in surplus. I once took a £5 coin ( royal wedding issue. IIRC) from a very apologetic punter as they we really skint, company refused to honour it and took the £5 from my wages.

The queues to cash-in were too long as everyone took the money back out to put correct amount back-in! Was costing more in overtime payments whilst everyone waited to cash-up

 

[Dai Corner]

I suspect the company keeps it all, as the driver has no access to, or involvement with, it.

Thinking about it further, the vaults are presumably only emptied at the end of the day so it wouldn't usually be possible to link any surplus or shortfall with a particular driver. I'd like to think the company would give the surplus (which would be more likely than a shortfall) to charity.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Pre all buses having CCTV inspectors or secret shopper style passengers were only there to catch drivers fiddling, in 20 years I never saw a passenger issued with a penalty ticket.

My company gave you one chance, caught fiddling was a final written warning, ever caught again and you were out, fair ( or fare!) enough.

There is no way companies would accept revenue not being recorded, that's what tickets are for. I was told when I started I would never see an inspector after 10pm or one a route known for trouble, especially schools, and I never did.

Some drivers never kept a penny, some drivers took enough for a breakfast, some drivers kept more than their wages.

Not me mind, I always paid in the companies full 65% of my takings.

Seeing as you worked for the same firm as my father, perhaps a slight clarification here. Especially as my dad was a shop steward and so had to deal with disciplinaries

Were an inspector to get on and a passenger not have a ticket, then obviously they'd ask the passenger had they received one. Often they had but had lost it so no issue for the driver. If they said they hadn't got one, then yes, some investigation would take place and that would lead to a disciplinary as you say.

However, whilst often the appearance of a "spy" would be random, some were definitely "intelligence led" i.e. they knew or strongly suspected that a driver was on the fiddle. I've known of instances, in the most extreme cases, where an inspector would get on and make the checks. On finding multiple discrepancies, the bus would be pulled in behind the waiting inspectors' BL mini-van (that dates it ) where the inspectors' chauffeur would take over the bus and the "offending" driver would be suspended on the spot and driven back to the depot.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I know an old MD of a bus company who could tell you how much each duty would take each week. If it didn't then it was tracking down which driver was responsible! It's very easy to spot, even if drivers think it isn't!

 

[philthetube]

In the old days, before cashing in machines, shorts were taken out of your wages, fake pound coins would be stamped with a hole, returned to you and a pound taken out of your wages, one of the reasons drivers don't like notes as fakes are taken from your wages.

Any payment over would be kept by the company, but with modern cash counting machines I can't see why anyone would pay in surplus. I once took a £5 coin ( royal wedding issue. IIRC) from a very apologetic punter as they we really skint, company refused to honour it and took the £5 from my wages.

Where I worked last the driver was only liable if the note was obviously fake , any company charging drivers for fake £20 notes would probably end up even shorter of staff than now. Having said that I worked in transport last year, regularly taking up to £1000 daily and never saw a fake.

I know an old MD of a bus company who could tell you how much each duty would take each week. If it didn't then it was tracking down which driver was responsible! It's very easy to spot, even if drivers think it isn't!

Average take per duty is recorded and it does not take long to spot regular variations.. Can be more of an issue when the same driver always does the same run, although in that case holidays can be revealing.

 

[DelayRepay]

Many years ago, I used to catch a bus to work that was operated by a local coach company. Occasionally, if the usual bus was out of service, they'd use one of their coaches, which did not have ticket machines. The driver would still collect fares, writing tickets out by hand. It took for ever to board when this happened. On the bright side the vehicle was more comfortable than the clapped out old bus.

In all my years of using buses, I don't think I've ever had my ticket inspected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2022 ==

In theory, if a ticket machine breaks the driver will have an emergency ticket book to write out tickets. In reality they'll either give a free ride or just cash-in the money to prove they took it.

In reality, they'd have to let a lot of passengers travel for free around here, since most people pay with contactless and a lot probably wouldn't have cash on them (at least not suitable denominations). I hardly ever carry change these days, so unless they could change a £10 or £20 note I wouldn't be able to pay. I don't think I'm unusual in that regard.

 

[Starmill]

Of course else how would TapInTapOff be possible. I didn't think haha.

Even a stowaway would be insured, certainly against injury or death in the vehicle due to a road accident. There is a statutory baseline for insurance cover which a policy may not go below.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Ticketers aren’t the most reliable of things, I used to reboot, annull, re-issue if it wasn’t printing but it’s such a hassle. If it stops printing properly, I’ll take the roll out, take payment and handwrite the ticket details (date, cost, time of payment, route etc.) and sign it with an identifying number so other drivers know it’s not a dud. Don’t think that’s the “right” thing to do but I’ve never seen an inspector and never had any back chat about it

Also, overpayments you don’t get in your wages/salary, for me at least. Sometimes if I’ve not got a 10p etc pax will say just to keep it, you’d be surprised how much those 10ps add up to over a year!

Cash shorts are taken out your wages/salary, but as there’s a set day our machines get emptied, if you’re 20p down one day, you can quite easily just equalise it the next day/later that week and as long as your cash is right at the “end” of the week, it’s fine.

You can also track how much a running board should be taking. Obv there will be one off differences, but you can easily see if there’s a suspect who seems to be taking much less on a running board than they should be

 

[Deerfold]

In the old days, before cashing in machines, shorts were taken out of your wages, fake pound coins would be stamped with a hole, returned to you and a pound taken out of your wages, one of the reasons drivers don't like notes as fakes are taken from your wages.

Any payment over would be kept by the company, but with modern cash counting machines I can't see why anyone would pay in surplus. I once took a £5 coin ( royal wedding issue. IIRC) from a very apologetic punter as they we really skint, company refused to honour it and took the £5 from my wages.

Did they give you the coin back?

 

[MedwayValiant]

Many years ago, I used to catch a bus to work that was operated by a local coach company. Occasionally, if the usual bus was out of service, they'd use one of their coaches, which did not have ticket machines. The driver would still collect fares, writing tickets out by hand.

I used to do similar in the early 90s. My bus was operated by Dodds of Troon, who stretched the definition of "outstation" to the limit with a small Hertfordshire operation, mostly the route between Hatfield and Potters Bar.

They had two dedicated vehicles for service work. I don't know precisely what they were, but matching small buses with 2+1 seating. If they needed a reserve then a touring coach came out, and as in your case these didn't have ticket machines. No handwritten tickets though, you just didn't get a ticket. I'm not sure how returns worked in that situation. I only used to use the route in one direction, perhaps they didn't do returns.

Someone here will be able to confirm, but it would have been at around the same time that Newport Transport in South Wales had only one fare. As you entered the bus you saw a large sign which said "30p" (or thereabouts), and there were no tickets at all.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'm not sure how returns worked in that situation. I only used to use the route in one direction, perhaps they didn't do returns.

My school bus used to do returns. Instead of a ticket you were given a washer painted green. You gave it back to the driver on the way home and then they were re-used the next day.

They had to re-think that arrangement when they ended the day with more green washers than they started with. We never did find out which child had been into his dad's garage looking for washers and a tin of green paint

 

[Deafdoggie]

My school bus used to do returns. Instead of a ticket you were given a washer painted green. You gave it back to the driver on the way home and then they were re-used the next day.

They had to re-think that arrangement when they ended the day with more green washers than they started with. We never did find out which child had been into his dad's garage looking for washers and a tin of green paint

It can't have saved them much, even if they got a lift in and got the return free on the way home!

 

[DelayRepay]

It can't have saved them much, even if they got a lift in and got the return free on the way home!

It was a long time ago. I think the fare was 25p each way. But that was enough for a packet of crisps or a can of pop!

 

[Deafdoggie]

It was a long time ago. I think the fare was 25p each way. But that was enough for a packet of crisps or a can of pop!

Fair enough! And I guess washers and paint was free.

 

[station_road]

Do any bus companies still give drivers emergency tickets? I've only seen one once, issued by Trent in the late 80s, which I remember being something like a two sheet card ticket with numbered sections - the driver punched holes in the numbers to the value paid, and kept the bottom half as their record. Soon after that, Trent brought in a policy of not charging if the machine was broken.

Over the years I've seen plenty of drivers who appeared to be doing something dodgy - the most blatant being an Arriva driver who gave me a ticket from his cash tray rather than the machine, it was timed from a few hours earlier and had part of a footprint on the back of it.

 

[Geordie driver]

Did they give you the coin back?

Yes, and I took it to the bank which changed it for a five pound note.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

65%? Were you essentally paid partly by way of retaining 35% of the farebox? Curious.

I was exaggerating for comic effect. There is no way they got that much.......

 

[dan5324]

Do any bus companies still give drivers emergency tickets? I've only seen one once, issued by Trent in the late 80s, which I remember being something like a two sheet card ticket with numbered sections - the driver punched holes in the numbers to the value paid, and kept the bottom half as their record. Soon after that, Trent brought in a policy of not charging if the machine was broken.

Over the years I've seen plenty of drivers who appeared to be doing something dodgy - the most blatant being an Arriva driver who gave me a ticket from his cash tray rather than the machine, it was timed from a few hours earlier and had part of a footprint on the back of it.

National express do. It’s such a chore to write on out though, pretty much every driver leaves them at home. Even more so as the company will charge the driver £500 of its lost/stolen!

 

[Flying Snail]

National express do. It’s such a chore to write on out though, pretty much every driver leaves them at home. Even more so as the company will charge the driver £500 of its lost/stolen!

Presumably they also get issued stage cards, otherwise how can they know what fare to charge.