Can drivers take money without issuing tickets?

[dan5324]

Presumably they also get issued stage cards, otherwise how can they know what fare to charge.

No. They have to call NCC.

 

[randyrippley]

Around 25 years ago some of the drivers on a local council subsidised service round here decided to stop issuing tickets, claiming the company hadn't issued them.
One phone call to the traffic commissioners and the drivers were soon gone, with the company closing not long after

 

[Roger1973]

Unless the law has changed, I don't think there is an actual legal requirement to issue tickets on a bus in the UK.

I understand that some of the 'flat fare' routes in London (the central London 'Red Arrow' and the 1970s minibus routes) didn't in their earlier years, and I think some operators outside London who went for flat fare didn't issue tickets either.

I did encounter a few post deregulation 'smaller independent' operators where ticket machines / tickets weren't a thing either. Not quite sure what the tax-person made of it all.

And have once or twice encountered drivers recycling tickets (driver on a park + ride who was collecting rather than cancelling return tickets) or simply not issuing tickets.

Someone earlier referred to contactless / oyster type cards - a validated (tapped on boarding) card constitutes a ticket - TFL's revenue protection people have an electronic scanner that can tell whether someone has validated their card on boarding. Similarly, a 'ticket' carried in a mobile phone app is also valid.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Thinking about it further, the vaults are presumably only emptied at the end of the day so it wouldn't usually be possible to link any surplus or shortfall with a particular driver. I'd like to think the company would give the surplus (which would be more likely than a shortfall) to charity.

There's also the people who underpay, it pretty much balances out with a margin of +/- 0.5% i've been told.

 

[Dai Corner]

There's also the people who underpay, it pretty much balances out with a margin of +/- 0.5% i've been told.

I'd assumed that if they didn't have enough money they'd be denied travel but if they had more than enough (but not the exact fare) they'd be allowed to overpay.

 

[Roger1973]

With fareboxes / vaults, there can be a tendency for drivers not to care too much about whether someone's paid the right amount. I've heard it said that at Potteries, takings went up noticeably when fareboxes were replaced with conventional one-person-operation.

Also, do fareboxes / vaults have a 'reject and give the money back to the passenger' feature if passenger says they have put the right fare in and driver says they haven't? If not, I can imagine that some drivers would take the line of least resistance if passenger is a small amount short of the right fare and they can't then give it back. (I can also imagine some passengers intentionally paying with a lot of small value coins so the driver is less likely to bother trying to count it all.)

 

[northern506]

Gateshead Central Taxis who operate services on behalf of Nexus in Tyne and Wear do this on a regular basis.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Yorkshire Tiger on their final day in Leeds offered free travel on all their buses (there were only about 4 drivers left). I remember one particular female driver taking fares, not giving change or a ticket and pocketing the cash. She even stopped at a newsagents to get some change because a girl had got on with a £10 note. She left the bus running whilst she went in the newsagents. We also had 2 very near serious accidents on that journey.

Thankfully I haven't seen this particular driver for a long time.

 

[philthetube]

Presumably they also get issued stage cards, otherwise how can they know what fare to charge.

I was told, when training last year that it is a legal responsibility to carry a fare table, and this was when working on a service with only 1 fare.

Going back around 30 years Grey green took over the 313 LT service at very short notice and with no equipped vehicles, they ran with an honesty box of the front.

 

[flythetube]

From another thread:


Does this still happen?

Are there any procedures/safeguards in place to prevent it?

I recently caught a bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton; the driver took cash only and did not issue tickets. Is that allowed and does it occur elsewhere?

On other routes, where a ticket machine has been out of action, my experience has been that the driver has said that no charge would be made.

They used to be able to issue tickets but disable the ticket machines cash count.

This refers to Wayfare 1 and 2 models that required the chunky metal cased modules.

For security reasons and in case these machines / modules are still in operation somewhere commercially, I will not reveal the method for doing so.

 

[Eyersey468]

I was told, when training last year that it is a legal responsibility to carry a fare table, and this was when working on a service with only 1 fare.

Going back around 30 years Grey green took over the 313 LT service at very short notice and with no equipped vehicles, they ran with an honesty box of the front.

I was always told it was a legal responsibility to carry a fare table as well yet we haven't been issued with one for a long time

 

[northwichcat]

Are there instances where the driver could record the correct fare on the machine but the ticket doesn't print due to a fault?

There was either a training issue or a machine fault on a Little Gem service I travelled on a few months ago. The driver couldn't set the machine to the correct boarding point (Altrincham Interchange) so issued an incorrect ticket but for the correct fare for the journey I was making.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

Unless the law has changed, I don't think there is an actual legal requirement to issue tickets on a bus in the UK.

I don't think VAT is incurred on bus fares which means you don't need to provide a breakdown of the amount paid and the taxable amount, like you do for some other products and services.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Are there instances where the driver could record the correct fare on the machine but the ticket doesn't print due to a fault?

Yes. Usually a paper jam.

 

[John Luxton]

Many years ago - between 1978 and 1982 I had reason to use the Okehampton to Tavistock bus service. This was very much the rail replacement offering for the withdrawn railway service and it was not the regular service which operates on that road today.

Back in the day there were two services one a joint service operated by Downs of Mary Tavy and G.G. Gay of Northlew. The other was operated by Okeridge Motor Service using a veritable collection of vintage rolling stock which had some interesting features as faulty sun roofs, horns that sounded for no apparent reason and the ability to see the road through the floor in places!

If you wanted a return ticket the driver gave you one, it was usually the same driver who was the proprietor. When he picked you up on the return trip he clipped the ticket back into his clipboard and I am sure the tickets were used over and over again. If you wanted a single you didn't get a ticket.

Same was true of another bus service I used in Devon around that time was from Crockernwell via Drewsteignton to Newton Abbot on Market Days operated by Crockernwell Motor Works. - No tickets issued but if you wanted a return the driver made a note on a clip board!

 

[Roger1973]

I was always told it was a legal responsibility to carry a fare table as well yet we haven't been issued with one for a long time

Yes - although there is some variance of opinion whether this is needed when drivers have a ticket machine that can work it all out and show the fares without issuing a ticket.

I'm aware that with some of the earlier generation of electronic ticket machines (I'm thinking Timtronic and Almex A90 / Eurofare) the driver didn't enter the fare value, but entered the intending passenger's alighting stage number and ticket type (so the key sequence for 'one and a half to the city centre' might be 50 AS + CS and the machine would show how much.) In those cases the driver would tend to carry a laminated sheet just listing the stage numbers.

They may of course have been issued with a paper fare-table along with emergency tickets.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

In theory, if a ticket machine breaks the driver will have an emergency ticket book to write out tickets.

This hasn’t been the case at two different bus companies I’ve worked at!
My first employer just pocketed “overs” for themselves, whereas my second pays it back to you in wages.

There has been an instance where someone’s just chucked our single fare at me, walked off, and the next passenger’s immediately boarded.
Sometimes it’s useful to balance your outgoings when kids on school services purposefully short-fare you.
You could refuse them travel - but they’ll always try the under-18 “obligation” to carry them, which isn’t true.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2022 ==

Thinking about it further, the vaults are presumably only emptied at the end of the day so it wouldn't usually be possible to link any surplus or shortfall with a particular driver. I'd like to think the company would give the surplus (which would be more likely than a shortfall) to charity.

You pay in with a driver number, so your takings are cross-referenced with your login on the ticket machine.

 

[Roger1973]

You pay in with a driver number, so your takings are cross-referenced with your login on the ticket machine.

Yes, but with farebox / vault, one driver might drive 2 or 3 buses in the course of their duty, and one bus might be driven by several drivers in the course of the day before the vault is emptied, and the individual drivers don't pay in - so if the takings on any particular bus are less than they should be, it can't be pinned on any one driver in the same way that a driver can be held responsible for any shortfall in their cash takings with conventional OPO.

Although I would have thought that if one or two drivers always appear on the list of those whose bus/es have been short of takings, then targetted observations are likely to be made.

Don't know how many operators still have any 'plain clothes' observers - London Transport was once big enough to have 'spots' - plain clothes inspectors who would travel as an ordinary passenger (and pay a fare) and look out for irregularities.

And some of the BET companies would occasionally swap an inspector or two who would then travel 'undercover' in the other company's area and try and catch conductors / drivers fiddling. This continued among at least some companies in to the NBC era.

 

[PG]

And some of the BET companies would occasionally swap an inspector or two who would then travel 'undercover' in the other company's area and try and catch conductors / drivers fiddling. This continued among at least some companies in to the NBC era.

The major groups used to do this if they suspected a particular driver of being on the take. CCTV has made the need somewhat superfluous nowadays.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I believe without a ticket, you're not insured.

There are still people who try to pocket cash by not printing tickets but I think it's few and far between now versus how it used to be.

That's a myth.

Yup, when London Transport launched the single-deck limited stop 'Red Arrow' routes, they were flat fare with no tickets. You put your coins in a sealed box next to the driver. I remember that arrangement pre-Travelcard

 

[Djb1]

Near me in Greater Manchester there is still a company that doesn’t take card payments.

I happened to use a local (now withdrawn due to lack of patronage…) tendered service of theirs earlier this year, just before it was withdrawn.

Of the 11 passengers on board, 6 paid a cash fare with no ticket issued….

 

[markymark2000]

Near me in Greater Manchester there is still a company that doesn’t take card payments.

I don't suppose you mean Little Gem?

 

[Djb1]

I don't suppose you mean Little Gem?

It’s probably best given my allegation that I don’t clarify that one

 

[Roger1973]

Yup, when London Transport launched the single-deck limited stop 'Red Arrow' routes, they were flat fare with no tickets. You put your coins in a sealed box next to the driver. I remember that arrangement pre-Travelcard

Going off at a tangent, but the original Red Arrow MBA class didn't have fareboxes, they had a pair of coin operated turnstiles (and, initially, a machine that would change larger coins in to 'sixpence' coins to operate them.) There's a press photo of one being used by the then transport minister here.

The turnstiles couldn't handle child fares - I am not sure if the driver was able to over-ride the turnstiles to allow holders of 'Red Rover' or concessionary passes through without paying. And if so whether that was prone to abuse with drivers accepting cash fares from passengers who didn't have the right coin/s for the machines.

I'm fairly sure the 'Red Arrow' batch of LS buses carried fareboxes from new, the range of bus passes and travelcard / capitalcard was certainly at the planning stage by then. I'm not sure if the turnstiles on the MBAs were replaced with fareboxes late on.

The self-service machines with turnstiles on SMS / DMS types did issue tickets, as they were mostly on routes with variable fares.

 

[markymark2000]

It’s probably best given my allegation that I don’t clarify that one

Little Gem is one of the most prominent ones in Manchester who don't take card but that is because their machines are leased from TFGM and TFGM won't get the updated machines which take card payments.

 

[mmh]

She even stopped at a newsagents to get some change because a girl had got on with a £10 note. She left the bus running whilst she went in the newsagents

I've seen exactly that happen in multiple places, including on a Transport For London bus route. What's the problem? The alternative would seem be to deny the girl travel (bad), allow her to travel without a ticket (bad according to some on this thread), or issue a ticket and take no money (sort of what the thread is about)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen exactly that happen in multiple places, including on a Transport For London bus route. What's the problem? The alternative would seem be to deny the girl travel (bad), allow her to travel without a ticket (bad according to some on this thread), or issue a ticket and take no money (sort of what the thread is about)

Carrying enough float, and change vouchers, are the way to deal with these issues, though I'm conscious not all bus companies do change vouchers.

On the other hand, leaving a motor vehicle with the engine running is a criminal offence.