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RPI vs Guard / TM - Who has more “power”?

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realemil

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If a guard or a TM allows me to travel without a valid ticket on their service and / or allows me to sit in 1st Class without a 1st Class ticket - and an RPI comes, who has more “power” in this situation?

Would the RPI issue a penalty fare / take my information for further investigation - or would they leave it?

This is a hypothetical question, and irregardless of whether or not I have written permission to not (unless this definitely effects the outcome).
 
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methecooldude

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As a guard myself, if an RPI comes on my train, I will advise them of anyone I have given allowances to.
To answer your question directly, it is still the guards/TMs train and they have authority to either tell the RPI to Foxtrot Oscar or to advise them otherwise
 

notadriver

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Why is it that an RPI on the buses has authority over the bus driver but on the trains has no authority over the conductor / TM never mind the train driver ?
 

Haywain

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Why is it that an RPI on the buses has authority over the bus driver but on the trains has no authority over the conductor / TM never mind the train driver ?
Because trains and buses are not the same.
 

Bensonby

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In the case of giving authority to do something where the permission of an “authorised person” is required then there isn’t a “rank” - as another “authorised person” wouldn’t have anything to take action for as there wouldn’t be a byelaw breach, due to that authority.
 

realemil

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Makes complete sense, thank you.

I was under the impression of otherwise from other cases :D
 

methecooldude

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In the case of giving authority to do something where the permission of an “authorised person” is required then there isn’t a “rank” - as another “authorised person” wouldn’t have anything to take action for as there wouldn’t be a byelaw breach, due to that authority.
Quite right, however "but the guy on the platform said"/"the guard said" is a regular attempt.
 

Deafdoggie

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Why is it that an RPI on the buses has authority over the bus driver but on the trains has no authority over the conductor / TM never mind the train driver ?
Generally a rail RPI is there to catch out passengers.
Generally a bus inspector is there to catch out bus drivers. This is why you very rarely see them nowadays as cab CCTV means they don't need to leave the office!
That said, many bus companies still use plain clothes inspectors.
 

superkopite

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Generally a rail RPI is there to catch out passengers.
Generally a bus inspector is there to catch out bus drivers. This is why you very rarely see them nowadays as cab CCTV means they don't need to leave the office!
That said, many bus companies still use plain clothes inspectors.
What are they trying to catch the bus drivers doing?
 

superkopite

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Pocketing the money without issuing tickets, letting their mates on for nowt etc.
Ah, ok, I thought that might have been a thing of the past now. I haven't been on a bus in a long time, probably 10 years, I assumed that they didn't accept cash anymore.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ah, ok, I thought that might have been a thing of the past now. I haven't been on a bus in a long time, probably 10 years, I assumed that they didn't accept cash anymore.

Cash is still accepted on most non-London buses, though in most places it's increasingly rare for it to be used as the older demographics who usually prefer cash get their free passes.
 

Deafdoggie

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Ah, ok, I thought that might have been a thing of the past now. I haven't been on a bus in a long time, probably 10 years, I assumed that they didn't accept cash anymore.
Exactly. You're more likely to see a rail RPI than a bus inspector!
 

ABB125

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Cash is still accepted on most non-London buses, though in most places it's increasingly rare for it to be used as the older demographics who usually prefer cash get their free passes.
My local operator doesn't (or didn't, they may have changed) have card payments. It was cash, or pass (either old person's, or school children's). Several hundred pounds of cash arrived on the bus every Monday morning with all the pupils getting their weekly tickets.

For context, this is an hourly rural service (with "peak time extras" ie: buses that are school buses in all but name) between two towns. The route passes through much of the catchment area for both one on the high schools in one town, and the middle school in one of the villages (three tier school system here). Hence a large quantity of children. And I haven't started on the local-authority contract coaches yet...
Operationally, the route is interesting as the "baseline" service operates with two vehicles. The school time extras use a third vehicle, which then does two return trips during the day to give the other drivers their rest break. When I was regularly using the buses for school, there was a pool of 4 regular drivers on the route. If you didn't have the money (or not quite enough) with you for a single trip (ie: you're doing something after school, so need to use the public bus rather than the designated contract service put on) then generally the drivers would let you on. I only did this once. All the regular users had their weekly tickets, which you certainly couldn't get away with not buying! I never saw any inspector on these buses.

Anyway, I think I've slightly digressed, apologies! To somewhat loosely return to topic, I've never actually had my ticket checked by an RPI, let alone after the guard has let me do something I shouldn't, so I can't really comment. I will say that ultimately I think the final decision should be the guard's, although whether this opens up the possibility of disciplinary action for leniency etc I'm not sure.
 

185

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Only once had an issue with a (quite new) RPI, some years ago, to the extent he was ejected from the train for deciding to reverse my discretion over an Advance ticket.

As a former RPI, I wouldn't dare go over a Guards discretion except if fraud with intent, eg fakes, altered, doughnutting was detected that the guard didn't spot - and even then I'd discuss it with the guard first - it's just plain courtesy.
 

methecooldude

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I will say that ultimately I think the final decision should be the guard's, although whether this opens up the possibility of disciplinary action for leniency etc I'm not sure.
Unless the guard is giving free travel to their friends or something similar, no, it is a part of the job to offer discretion and leniency where the guard deems it appropriate, so there is no disciplinary action to take
 

yorkie

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Ah, ok, I thought that might have been a thing of the past now. I haven't been on a bus in a long time, probably 10 years, I assumed that they didn't accept cash anymore.
I have created a thread here:

 

357

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It is always the traincrews train and they have ultimate authority.

As a driver I have authorised people to travel on my train before, having been advised of a situation by agency security/cleaning staff. I tell them to sit directly behind my cab and if any revenue staff give them any bother to knock on my door, and I'll answer at the next station. Never had an issue.

A call to control doesn't hurt either so they can make a note in case of issues exiting the destination station.
 

LowLevel

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Generally speaking the guard, providing they're acting in a reasonable fashion, is given the discretion to run their train as they see fit. If I authorise 100 people to travel because their train is cancelled without formal ticket acceptance I can guarantee my TOC wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Even our most diligent RPIs will defer to me if I say I've authorised something, though they also know I'll tell them or have made an endorsement and therefore anything else is fair game - if they board my train to do their jobs aside from telling them what I've already done I assist as much or as little as they wish. If they tell me to take a back seat on tickets for whatever reason I just stick to passenger counts and tidying up litter whilst providing a general presence.

Mutual respect is very important. If I gave an RPI a direction they would follow it, but they also know I wouldn't do such a thing lightly.

This is of course from a staff perspective. From the perspective of a passenger there should be no doubt - if the guard authorises something then they should be comfortable that revenue protection should respect it and it should be an internal issue only.
 

Segedunum

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I recall several years ago approaching a guard on VTEC after a failed VTEC service in the Darlington area had obliterated my connection with a Grand Central service to London (I was doing it from Newcastle on the cheap, via split TPE and GC tickets) asking for permission to board as I'd otherwise have a 3+ hour wait.

RPIs who were stood near the doors interrupted him and started harping on about how it was time for me to pay full fare only for him to turn around and tell them to back off before gesturing for me to get on and take a seat. Very much got the impression that the guard is in charge from that encounter.

They later came through the train and didn't seem too pleased to see me but nothing more was said. They were also dressed quite smartly so I don't know if they were proper RPIs or some sort of office staff/manager. Never saw that sort of RPI/inspector on board again.
 

RPI

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Its not something I've ever had an issue with, if anyone allows discretionary travel for whatever reason then they should endorse the ticket, I would never attempt to overrule an endorsed ticket.

I always respect a decision made by a guard and vice versa, no one has "more power" its about mutual respect, we're on the same side.
 
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