Eight new cities to mark Platinum Jubilee

[Old Yard Dog]

Colchester, Chelmsford and Southend have all been canonised in recent years. Does the Lord High City Maker happen to come from Essex, I wonder?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

MK City will have played at Manor Fields in Blethcley ( actually Fenny Stratford) in 1979 so I tip my hat.
BTW - Newport are a nice little club who have just won the Vase.
BTW 2 - my desk is about where the penalty area in the hockey stadium was

Ellesmere Port wise - I don't think I have ever mentioned it and I dont think I have ever visited. I have been to Port Sunlight if that is close by?

Sorry Rich for mixing you up with Bletchleyite - I'm obviously suffering from Alex Ferguson syndrome (who once, infamously, mixed up his Israeli club sides not realizing there was more than one)

And yes MK City were the former Bletchley Town from Manor Field. This was adjacent to the cricket ground where I saw Northants vs Yorks in the JPL in 1977. Sir Geoffrey Boycott couldn't find the ground and did not arrive until 1.55pm. He was out 10 mins later, tickling the third ball down the legside to the wicketkeeper.

 

[DarloRich]

And yes MK City were the former Bletchley Town from Manor Field. This was adjacent to the cricket ground where I saw Northants vs Yorks in the JPL in 1977. Sir Geoffrey Boycott couldn't find the ground and did not arrive until 1.55pm. He was out 10 mins later, tickling the third ball down the legside to the wicketkeeper.

5 minutes from my house. Often wander down on a Sunday and watch a bit of cricket. Much easier to find now with the A5 and various new roads in the area.

I had heard Northants played a couple of games there in the past. I have seen Northants play a 20/20 in Campbell Park. Went with loads of people from work who had no idea what was going on!

Sorry Rich for mixing you up with Bletchleyite

No worries

 

[cjmillsnun]

Marazion, official population 1,440, was on the original longlist. Ironic considering the St Aubyn family who were gifted St Michael's Mount in 1650 and still live there received it as reward for taking the Roundhead side in the Civil War against the Cavaliers (i.e. the Royalists!)

On the other hand, they might think of it as a last throw of the dice by a government which would do nothing to resist should Argentina send a platoon to plant their flag in Port Stanley and announce they were now in charge. Better to let sleeping dogs lie imo.

Umm considering our military presence on the Falklands is far larger than in 1982 they would resist.

 

[Bantamzen]

All this begs the question - what difference does it make to an urban area whether it's a town or a city?

As others have said, a new badge, some new stationary, a few new road signs & higher council tax bills to pay for them....

I can't think of anywhere less like a city than Milton Keynes. Cities have history, cathedrals, an interesting city centre and the like. Milton Keynes is just a big a modern hotch potch on the M1 and WCML with none of these things.

I can't help but wonder if awarding MK city status was some civil servant's idea of a joke. As you say the place is as unremarkable as could be, just a big housing estate built on a field next to a motorway & main line. For me a city should be a place of interest, history & culture, not some beige town thrown together to house London based office workers...

 

[DarloRich]

I can't help but wonder if awarding MK city status was some civil servant's idea of a joke. As you say the place is as unremarkable as could be, just a big housing estate built on a field next to a motorway & main line.

Aye aye. It is amazing the number of people who have views about MK but either don't live there or have visited once in 1987!

not some beige town thrown together to house London based office workers.

acktually the town was designed to house people moved out of London slums after the war. They weren't office workers.............

 

[Bantamzen]

Aye aye. It is amazing the number of people who have views about MK but either don't live there or have visited once in 1987!

He he, I knew that would get a bite sooner or later.

acktually the town was designed to house people moved out of London slums after the war. They weren't office workers.............

I stand corrected. However I am still curious why MK got the nod over somewhere like Shrewsbury. As I said, I tend to think of cities as places of culture, history, art. Places where people might travel to visit, not a town on the fringes of the London commuter belt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand corrected. However I am still curious why MK got the nod over somewhere like Shrewsbury. As I said, I tend to think of cities as places of culture, history, art. Places where people might travel to visit, not a town on the fringes of the London commuter belt.

Southend is hardly a cultural centre, though it is a beach destination from London and a commuter town.

I'd agree Shrewsbury deserves city status - it and Bournemouth are two that I keep mistakenly thinking are cities. However, did it even apply?

Wrexham only got it because it was the next biggest place in Wales that wasn't already a city, and there was a desire to designate at least one in each constituent of the UK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Aye aye. It is amazing the number of people who have views about MK but either don't live there or have visited once in 1987!

To be fair, MK doesn't really help itself sometimes. Or at least people get that impression (even if its not specifically the cities fault itself). As we've seen in the other thread about the MCR gig transport situation there were lots of comments from people who were at the gig about not wanting to return to MK ever again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, MK doesn't really help itself sometimes. Or at least people get that impression (even if its not specifically the cities fault itself). As we've seen in the other thread about the MCR gig transport situation there were lots of comments from people who were at the gig about not wanting to return to MK ever again!

In what way does the actions of a train operator headquartered in Birmingham mean "MK doesn't help itself"? I've never heard such utter tripe.

The area around the stadium isn't particularly nice, but nor is the area around Old Trafford or Eastlands, to use Manchester as an example of such venues. And Wembley (the area) is an utter and abject dump.

I think to be fair MCR have made a mistake in where they played their gigs. It looks like they've chosen with reference to US car culture (they are a US band, after all) where everyone would drive there (and probably have "tailgate parties" in the car park) by just plonking them in fairly random places between two major cities in order to serve both - see also Warrington. MK was probably chosen because it was half way between London and Birmingham, but failing to consider that it'd actually have been better in terms of public transport access for the area if it had actually been in London (and no worse for Brummies than MK, because the last train from MK to Brum originates from Euston). Knebworth is a bit different, that's somewhere people pretty much exclusively go by car as it's in the middle of a field.

 

[Bantamzen]

Southend is hardly a cultural centre, though it is a beach destination from London and a commuter town.

Indeed, though Southend got the city status through the death of David Amess rather than applying for it. Most of my memories of Southend are limited to the pubs around Roots Hall when the mighty Bantams rolled into town, erm city. Although on one occasion Southend appeared to be closed when we took 2,000 fans down thanks to free coach travel put on by the club. Well I say closed, most of the pub doors were locked but there were clearly punters inside!

I'd agree Shrewsbury deserves city status - it and Bournemouth are two that I keep mistakenly thinking are cities. However, did it even apply?

Wrexham only got it because it was the next biggest place in Wales that wasn't already a city, and there was a desire to designate at least one in each constituent of the UK.

For me, and with all due respect for the good folk of Buckinghamshire, Shrewsbury was a more obvious choice. But I have no clue as to the criteria applied for awarding city status in this instance, or indeed why other towns didn't apply.

 

[DarloRich]

However I am still curious why MK got the nod over somewhere like Shrewsbury.

According to the media MK was chosen as it is the pinnacle of the national postwar planning movement - you may scoff but that was a big thing in post war Britain. The new towns were going to be a vast improvement on the bomb damaged deprived areas in the big cities and in fairness to MK they have done a pretty good job. it is entirely different to other British towns and that seems to be unsettling for some people.

I admit before I moved here I shared the views many have espoused about MK. When you live here you find it just works. Honestly.

You cant move for parks and trees, the pedestrians and the vehicles are separated, the red way system of cycle paths is superb

As I said, I tend to think of cities as places of culture, history, art.

We have something like 27 conservation areas, 50 scheduled monuments, 1,100 listed building and 270 pieces of public art.
My house in Milton Keynes predates the railways. The next street over is Watling Street which meant we were a major coaching inn stop, in my village we have roman remains, the oldest golden coin in Britain was found in those remains, we have had a market charter since 1608, my parish church dates from 1724 and the HS2 of its day runs through the village ( grand union canal). Oh and the diesel engine was invented in Fenny Stratford. That just one of the component parts of the city. Looks quite a bit of history there!

We have Beltchley Park ( you may have heard of that) and Wolverton is said to be the first railway town ( it isnt - Darlo is ) Stony Stratford was given a town charter in the 1200's and was a major coaching interchange (think Crewe but with horses and coaches) and also allegedly the birth place of the phrase " a cock and bull story" ( it isn't but it is good line)

What you actually mean is you like a city to have old buildings!


( Sorry I feel a bit like a convert preaching to the heathens but it is a really good place to live and people simply will not look beyond thier own preconceptions!)

But I have no clue as to the criteria applied for awarding city status in this instance, or indeed why other towns didn't apply.

I don't think anyone does know the criteria! Strangely MK has two Tory MP's at just the right time................

 

[Gareth]

A city traditionally had its own charter and could largely run itself and raise its own taxes - the county being reduced to largely dealing with courts and some larger scale strategic stuff.

These days, it's more of an honorific bestowed on a place, not too disimilar to the "Royal" prefix some towns have. That's the only difference between a town and city in this country, although a charter is still required as matter of tradition. It has nothing much to do with size or how "nice" a particular place is. Abroad, it varies. Some US states consider a city to be a town with a population over a certain size. Others, it's about the type of local government used (mayor, cabinet, administrator etc). In Japan and some places in Europe, it's a municipality that's large enough to not be grouped with other places on the next level up (usually called a district in English).

 

[DarloRich]

These days, it's more of an honorific bestowed on a place, not too disimilar to the "Royal" prefix some towns have. That's the only difference between a town and city in this country, although a charter is still required as matter of tradition.

The award of city status in the UK is by "Letters Patent" issued by the monarch

 

[Gareth]

Yes, it's an honorific.

 

[gordonthemoron]

@DarloRich however the pubs are nowt special and the buses are dreadful

 

[Bletchleyite]

@DarloRich however the pubs are nowt special

If you want a decent pub Stony Stratford is probably the best place to head (and the origin of the Cock and Bull story, though one of the two, I forget which, is presently closed).

and the buses are dreadful

It's incredibly difficult to serve economically by bus as a result of the distributed design. Even the MK Connect DRT service is just a paid-per-head taxi service, because journeys so rarely match up to result in a share. It could be served well with subsidy, but that would require people to accept higher Council Tax to pay for it, and people prefer to drive. The "rougher" parts where car ownership is lower are fairly well served by routes 4, 5 and 6 - it helps that most such places are in a nice convenient line along Saxon St.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Indeed, though Southend got the city status through the death of David Amess rather than applying for it. Most of my memories of Southend are limited to the pubs around Roots Hall when the mighty Bantams rolled into town, erm city. Although on one occasion Southend appeared to be closed when we took 2,000 fans down thanks to free coach travel put on by the club. Well I say closed, most of the pub doors were locked but there were clearly punters inside!


For me, and with all due respect for the good folk of Buckinghamshire, Shrewsbury was a more obvious choice. But I have no clue as to the criteria applied for awarding city status in this instance, or indeed why other towns didn't apply.

If Bradford hadn't been awarded City status in 1897 by Queen Victoria, I wonder whether Manningham FC would have stuck with its original name when it converted from RL to association in 1902 instead of muscling in on the Bradford name? Bradford FC was still a member of the FA at the time but didn't play the round ball game between 1899 and 1907 so was not in a position to object - and indeed was forced to add Park Avenue in brackets to its name in 1907. Imagine what the kop-ites might say if Everton ever decided to rebrand themselves as Liverpool City!

A few years ago, the Church of England considered relegating Bradford Cathedral to a Parish Church. Avenue fans mischievously suggested that if this happened, Bradford would cease to be a City and the Bantams would have to rename themselves as Bradford Town or go back to their original name Manningham.

Swansea Town, of course, changed their name to Swansea City when Abertawe became a city in 1969.

 

[DarloRich]

however the pubs are nowt special

We have some great pubs. Admittedly not in the centre but certinaly in the component villages. The Chequers near me is a lovely pub and the Red Lion is a lovely pub for sitting out by the canal. I like the Swan in MK Village ( lovely for a meal) and strangely like the Plough in Simpson ( another good one for sitting out)

I also like MK Biergarten in Wolverton and Blackened Sun tap room in Stacey's Bush even if it is a garage!

the buses are dreadful

Agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have some great pubs. Admittedly not in the centre but certinaly in the component villages. The Chequers near me is a lovely pub and the Red Lion is a lovely pub for sitting out by the canal. I like the Swan in MK Village ( lovely for a meal) and strangely like the Plough in Simpson ( another good one for sitting out)

I think the issue is that CMK is bluntly soulless and not overly pleasant unless office parks and big shopping centres are your thing. Nice places are found elsewhere in MK, not there. CMK is another place I don't often go to (other than driving to the cinema, I find Cineworld slightly better than the Odeon), whereas if I lived in say Liverpool I'd probably go to the centre at least every couple of weeks if not more. Most visitors go straight to CMK and thus get a poor impression.

To be fair to it coming out of the station has a very Germanic feel with the buses straight outside and the clock on a stick and flags, but even that is in a fairly poor state of repair these days.

 

[Bantamzen]

If Bradford hadn't been awarded City status in 1897 by Queen Victoria, I wonder whether Manningham FC would have stuck with its original name when it converted from RL to association in 1902 instead of muscling in on the Bradford name? Bradford FC was still a member of the FA at the time but didn't play the round ball game between 1899 and 1907 so was not in a position to object - and indeed was forced to add Park Avenue in brackets to its name in 1907. Imagine what the kop-ites might say if Everton ever decided to rebrand themselves as Liverpool City!

Its an interesting question, I doubt that we would have kept Mamningham as the name mainly because the change in code needed a change in identity. I guess in this situation City would have been replaced with something like United, Rovers, or maybe even Boars..

A few years ago, the Church of England considered relegating Bradford Cathedral to a Parish Church. Avenue fans mischievously suggested that if this happened, Bradford would cease to be a City and the Bantams would have to rename themselves as Bradford Town or go back to their original name Manningham.

And the Stans wonder why we don't like them much...

 

[gordonthemoron]

@DarloRich i have been to all of those, but none of them is as good as Malt Shovel in Northampton, and Northampton ain’t good

 

[Busaholic]

Umm considering our military presence on the Falklands is far larger than in 1982 they would resist.

OK, I was obviously wrong about the defences of the Falklands. I ought to be flabbergasted at the extent of them, but I suppose our government will be able to relocate a large proportion when their inept Northern Ireland 'protocol' and its aftermath leads to the complete breakdown of the Good Friday agreement, to the delight of hardline Unionists, including some in the DUP who'll never accept that Sinn Fein should have a meaningful role in the Assembly.

 

[AlterEgo]

And yes MK City were the former Bletchley Town from Manor Field. This was adjacent to the cricket ground where I saw Northants vs Yorks in the JPL in 1977. Sir Geoffrey Boycott couldn't find the ground and did not arrive until 1.55pm. He was out 10 mins later, tickling the third ball down the legside to the wicketkeeper.

Did you ever get up to Wolverton in the north to see Wolverton AFC? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverton_A.F.C.

The pitch was very unusual and was located at the railway works there: https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/...tball-stand-was-destroyed-by-a-local-council/

The unusual three gabled stand is still there even though the pitch is now a grassy park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@DarloRich i have been to all of those, but none of them is as good as Malt Shovel in Northampton, and Northampton ain’t good

Northampton town centre is horrid. Horribly run down. I'm sure there's the odd good pub and there's the theatre, but the rest of it looks like there's been a war there, in a terrible state of repair.

 

[AlterEgo]

He he, I knew that would get a bite sooner or later.


I stand corrected. However I am still curious why MK got the nod over somewhere like Shrewsbury. As I said, I tend to think of cities as places of culture, history, art. Places where people might travel to visit, not a town on the fringes of the London commuter belt.

Milton Keynes is the hub of regional activity in the area and has done the job of a city proper for about 25 years. It has an extensive hinterland and has usurped the local towns of Aylesbury, Luton, Northampton and Buckingham in importance.

Milton Keynes has been around since the Domesday Book, and is pretty much unique among English cities in how it has been built upon and expanded. Effectively, it is a series of interwoven villages. Central MK is not much to look at, but take a bike ride or walk around the entire city and you'll probably stop thinking it's just a "big town".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Yes, it's an honorific.

Indeed, and nothing will change about Milton Keynes' administration as a result. City status is simply nowadays a way of recognising civic pride and importance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

acktually the town was designed to house people moved out of London slums after the war. They weren't office workers.............

yes, the first generation of MK residents were the sort of people you find in the latter series of Call the Midwife. It is not perfect but has been an extremely successful piece of social and urban planning by the measure of improving people's lives, at least.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed, and nothing will change about Milton Keynes' administration as a result. City status is simply nowadays a way of recognising civic pride and importance.

Well, we will need a new letter had for the council tax bills

It is not perfect but has been an extremely successful piece of social and urban planning by the measure of improving people's lives, at least.

Agreed. It is a very good place to live.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes is the hub of regional activity in the area and has done the job of a city proper for about 25 years. It has an extensive hinterland and has usurped the local towns of Aylesbury, Luton, Northampton and Buckingham in importance.

Milton Keynes has been around since the Domesday Book, and is pretty much unique among English cities in how it has been built upon and expanded. Effectively, it is a series of interwoven villages. Central MK is not much to look at, but take a bike ride or walk around the entire city and you'll probably stop thinking it's just a "big town".

It's similar to London in being made up of interwoven villages, but at a far lower density. The grid road system makes those villages (old and new) quite distinct, and takes traffic away from village centres which would otherwise be full of cars - there are some real "hidden gems" e.g. Woughton-on-the-Green, but you have to go and look for them.

yes, the first generation of MK residents were the sort of people you find in the latter series of Call the Midwife. It is not perfect but has been an extremely successful piece of social and urban planning by the measure of improving people's lives, at least.

It looks very dated as it's quite old now but there's some fascinating history of MK here:

Clutch at The Open University

Empower beginners to engage deeply with musical activities. Provide new tools and capabilities for expert musicians and theorists. Cast new light on how music and music perception work.

clutch.open.ac.uk

In particular this section of it recounts interviews of people who first moved to the Lakes Estate in Bletchley, which predates the wider MK, and is now considered somewhat of a sink estate (though these things are relative, and nowhere in MK is as bad as some places in our larger cities). It shows how much of an upgrade it was from the London "slums" to those who moved there.

Clutch at The Open University

Empower beginners to engage deeply with musical activities. Provide new tools and capabilities for expert musicians and theorists. Cast new light on how music and music perception work.

clutch.open.ac.uk

And some more Bletchley history here (sadly no longer updated; I think the person who wrote it was quite advanced in years so may sadly have passed away):

Talk About Bletchley

A community forum for Bletchley - past, present and future

talkaboutbletchley.wordpress.com

 

[Runningaround]

He he, I knew that would get a bite sooner or later.


I stand corrected. However I am still curious why MK got the nod over somewhere like Shrewsbury. As I said, I tend to think of cities as places of culture, history, art. Places where people might travel to visit, not a town on the fringes of the London commuter belt.

Why would you give a town city status when it didn't even apply for it? MK is largest of a town designed for the future and is the most significant example and has importance in it's area. Shrewsbury isn't even the most influential town in it's county and far from it in the region.
''Culture'', ''History'', and ''Art''. Well it's starting to get a lot of artisan bakeries, craft micro beer pubs and fancy coffee shops. A few more sleeve tattooed beardies, pretend socialists and for the locals to stop voting tory and it'll get the hipster thing spot on.

 

[THC]

Something worth considering for those places that missed out on city status is that the coronation of a new monarch is likely to bring with it a further round of letters patent. So there is hope yet in the years to come for Reading et al.

THC

 

[Bantamzen]

Milton Keynes is the hub of regional activity in the area and has done the job of a city proper for about 25 years. It has an extensive hinterland and has usurped the local towns of Aylesbury, Luton, Northampton and Buckingham in importance.

Milton Keynes has been around since the Domesday Book, and is pretty much unique among English cities in how it has been built upon and expanded. Effectively, it is a series of interwoven villages. Central MK is not much to look at, but take a bike ride or walk around the entire city and you'll probably stop thinking it's just a "big town".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==


Indeed, and nothing will change about Milton Keynes' administration as a result. City status is simply nowadays a way of recognising civic pride and importance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==


yes, the first generation of MK residents were the sort of people you find in the latter series of Call the Midwife. It is not perfect but has been an extremely successful piece of social and urban planning by the measure of improving people's lives, at least.

So it's a nice place to live, and handy for a commute into the big smoke. But save a few remote villages and lots of farmland until the urban sprawl was built, not much in the way of history or culture.

Why would you give a town city status when it didn't even apply for it? MK is largest of a town designed for the future and is the most significant example and has importance in it's area. Shrewsbury isn't even the most influential town in it's county and far from it in the region.
''Culture'', ''History'', and ''Art''. Well it's starting to get a lot of artisan bakeries, craft micro beer pubs and fancy coffee shops. A few more sleeve tattooed beardies, pretend socialists and for the locals to stop voting tory and it'll get the hipster thing spot on.

Hmmm, not sure a higher ratio of over priced coffees, beers, pastries, and tattooed beardies would be a qualifier for city status.

Look I'm sure Milton Keynes is a lovely, happy place. But I just don't see it as somewhere one would call a city, and certainly not a place you would go out of your way to visit. Surely at the very least a city is somewhere of interest to non-locals, somewhere you might go for a day trip or even a stay-over? Sure its got a big former clay pit bowl used for gigs, and an over-sized stadium for it's MkFranchise football team, but these are not really places of interest. Call my old fashioned if you will, but cities to me should be interesting places to see.