Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[Goldfish62]

Deutsche Bahn have had the Buchfahrplan and electronic version for years, and that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the need for route learning.

And look at the number of collisions in Germany...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Germany had to rebuild most of their railways after the Second World War. I honestly can’t see it ever working on the WCML unless we spend all our GDP on it.

Wha? The Buchfahrplan was literally a book. No need to rebuild anything to adopt that approach. It doesn't contain that much information, it is basically just a very detailed working timetable. Since about 2000 it has been electronic but still pretty much the same.

You’re probably right about DOO, sadly, I’m sure we’re going to see more disputes popping up over it. Personally I think the way to save costs would be to merge companies and cut down on middle and higher management positions. Go back to something like BR’s sectorisation.

You could certainly get savings by centralising things like Delay Repay clearing and customer services.

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And look at the number of collisions in Germany...

Nowt to do with route learning vs Buchfahrplan. More to do with the existence of the grossly dangerous Zs1 "SPAD signal" on single lines and the lack of interlocking on some branch lines.

 

[Efini92]

Wha? The Buchfahrplan was literally a book. No need to rebuild anything to adopt that approach. It doesn't contain that much information, it is basically just a very detailed working timetable. Since about 2000 it has been electronic but still pretty much the same.



You could certainly get savings by centralising things like Delay Repay clearing and customer services.

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Nowt to do with route learning vs Buchfahrplan. More to do with the existence of the grossly dangerous Zs1 "SPAD signal" on single lines and the lack of interlocking on some branch lines.

Sorry I thought you were referring to some kind of system they use on trains in Germany. I have zero knowledge on how their railway operates.

 

[43066]

"SPAD signal"

Someone saying “Das SN109” sprang to mind!!!

Wha? The Buchfahrplan was literally a book. No need to rebuild anything to adopt that approach. It doesn't contain that much information, it is basically just a very detailed working timetable. Since about 2000 it has been electronic but still pretty much the same.

It looks more like a detailed sectional appendix from memory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The mines are a bit of a red herring simply because they were basically commercially unviable given cheaper coal being imported from abroad. The railways aren’t facing closure, remain very important to the bit of the country that really matters economically, and indeed have a strong future that dovetails with the “green agenda”.

Bar a bit of branch-line* pruning which could be sneaked in under the auspices of "look at this electric bus, it's more frequent and better for the environment", I doubt there would be mass closures either, too politically unpalatable. However, DOO could certainly be "forced in" on any services operating with units with cameras, e.g. all 80x and 195/331 operated routes, and retrofit would be possible on Desiros etc. There would be lengthy strikes, but now London's economy isn't dependent on the railway...

* I mean real basket cases e.g. Conwy Valley and Whitby, maybe Berney Arms, Helsby-Ellesmere Port and the likes. In the 1990s there was a feeling the likes of Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan might go but I doubt even that now.

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Sorry I thought you were referring to some kind of system they use on trains in Germany.

I was.

I have zero knowledge on how their railway operates.

Some reading would be sensible so you would understand that the most recent spate of collisions had nothing to do with route learning and everything to do with a rather bizarre approach to branch line signalling.

 

[43066]

but now London's economy isn't dependent on the railway...

A lot still use the train. Not as many as in 2019, but blimey people really are coming back. Standing room only on many trains once again, revenue back up to 80% etc.

Some reading would be sensible

I think you’ve done enough reading on the German system for all of us .

 

[Efini92]

Bar a bit of branch-line* pruning which could be sneaked in under the auspices of "look at this electric bus, it's more frequent and better for the environment", I doubt there would be mass closures either, too politically unpalatable. However, DOO could certainly be "forced in" on any services operating with units with cameras, e.g. all 80x and 195/331 operated routes, and retrofit would be possible on Desiros etc. There would be lengthy strikes, but now London's economy isn't dependent on the railway...

* I mean real basket cases e.g. Conwy Valley and Whitby, maybe Berney Arms, Helsby-Ellesmere Port and the likes. In the 1990s there was a feeling the likes of Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan might go but I doubt even that now.

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I was.



Some reading would be sensible so you would understand that the most recent spate of collisions had nothing to do with route learning and everything to do with a rather bizarre approach to branch line signalling.

They should knock the blocks down at ormskirk and run the service through to Preston, aren’t the new merseyrail trains capable of driving on batteries?
I didn’t mention anything about collisions on single lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone saying “Das SN109” sprang to mind!!!

For the uninitiated, it's OT but worth explaining for context rather than further discussion, German signals have a subsidiary aspect which allows the signaller to put up a signal overriding the interlock. It's not a fully clear signal, it's the equivalent of phoning and being verbally instructed to pass a signal at danger in the UK, and I believe it imposes a 25km/h limit until a normal clear signal is passed and also requires driving on sight. No problems so far. The issue is that this can be issued by one person (without reference to anything else) on a single-track branch line or bidirectional mainline, on which there is (actually was) another train coming the other way with no idea that this had occurred; the first thing they knew about it was seeing the other unit bearing down on them followed by the inevitable crash

No level of route learning would avoid a crash like that. The issue was purely two trains being signalled head-on onto the same length of single track.

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They should knock the blocks down at ormskirk and run the service through to Preston, aren’t the new merseyrail trains capable of driving on batteries?

That is a potential proposal for the future if the battery trials go well.

I didn’t mention anything about collisions on single lines.

Sorry, confused you with @Goldfish62 who pointed out that DB's recent collision record wasn't great, my reply was pointing out that the reliance on the Buchfahrplan wasn't the cause of these (nor even in any way contributory to them).

 

[dk1]

Probably easier and cheaper to close the railway completely and issue all the passengers magic carpets .

I do agree with the comments re. ticket offices sadly, the writing has been on the wall there for a long time. I highly doubt there will be compulsory redundancies, though.

No me neither. It doesn’t happen that way. Oddly enough during the recent VSS not one of the many staff in our local ticket offices who registered interest where allowed to go.

 

[Efini92]

For the uninitiated, it's OT but worth explaining for context rather than further discussion, German signals have a subsidiary aspect which allows the signaller to put up a signal overriding the interlock. It's not a fully clear signal, it's the equivalent of phoning and being verbally instructed to pass a signal at danger in the UK, and I believe it imposes a 25km/h limit until a normal clear signal is passed and also requires driving on sight. No problems so far. The issue is that this can be issued by one person (without reference to anything else) on a single-track branch line or bidirectional mainline, on which there is (actually was) another train coming the other way with no idea that this had occurred; the first thing they knew about it was seeing the other unit bearing down on them followed by the inevitable crash

No level of route learning would avoid a crash like that. The issue was purely two trains being signalled head-on onto the same length of single track.

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That is a potential proposal for the future if the battery trials go well.



Sorry, confused you with @Goldfish62 who pointed out that DB's recent collision record wasn't great, my reply was pointing out that the reliance on the Buchfahrplan wasn't the cause of these (nor even in any way contributory to them).

No probs, I hadn’t seen that post so wondered what you were referencing, makes sense now.
There’s a similar type of signalling system in the UK. It won’t allow trains to be signalled head on but I will allow a train to be signalled into a section when the overlap of the next signal isn’t clear. I believe (happily to be corrected by a signaller) it’s on the NX panel type boxes and is only for shunt moves.

 

[Br33zy]

I hope Northern rail don't strike when I start my conductor training with them in a fortnights time. Don't fancy driving to Leeds in rush hr traffic and paying for parking - Im excited about using my free rail pass for those 8 weeks

 

[Fragezeichnen]

That can’t be helped really in some cases. My TOC has had three separate drivers all on three separate T&Cs because we where merged 18 years ago & none will give anything away obviously unless a spectacular harmonisation deal was offered. It hasn’t so it remains as is.

Perhaps the way that operating contracts are awarded should be/can be rethought under the new GBR system to avoid this mess of different working arrangements and agreements built up over decades.

In Germany(sorry, them again), when an company wins a bid to operate a set of routes(typically they are divided up into much small groups than a UK franchise) they are purely winning the right to run the service, and they have a free hand to go and find some trains, a depot to maintain them in and some staff to operate them, and then overnight on the appointed day the new operator, trains and staff take over. They do not take over the previous operating organisation as a going concern and all it's agreements.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps the way that operating contracts are awarded should be/can be rethought under the new GBR system.

In Germany(sorry, them again), when an company wins a bid to operate a set of routes(typically they are divided up into much small groups than a UK franchise) they are purely winning the right to run the service, and they have a free hand to go and find some trains, a depot to maintain them in and some staff to operate them, and then overnight on the appointed day the new operator, trains and staff take over. They do not take over the previous operating organisation and all it's agreements.

Good job we are British Sounds draconian over there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the way that operating contracts are awarded should be/can be rethought under the new GBR system to avoid this mess of different working arrangements and agreements built up over decades.

In Germany(sorry, them again), when an company wins a bid to operate a set of routes(typically they are divided up into much small groups than a UK franchise) they are purely winning the right to run the service, and they have a free hand to go and find some trains, a depot to maintain them in and some staff to operate them, and then overnight on the appointed day the new operator, trains and staff take over. They do not take over the previous operating organisation as a going concern and all it's agreements.

This is made easier by the absence of a TUPE equivalent (which is curious, as I'm sure someone told me a while back that TUPE exists as a result of an EU directive). In the UK they'd be required to take on the old staff on their old terms, in Germany they're not.

 

[43066]

In Germany(sorry, them again), when an company wins a bid to operate a set of routes(typically they are divided up into much small groups than a UK franchise) they are purely winning the right to run the service, and they have a free hand to go and find some trains, a depot to maintain them in and some staff to operate them, and then overnight on the appointed day the new operator, trains and staff take over. They do not take over the previous operating organisation as a going concern and all it's agreements.

How does that work in terms of operational staff? You’d need to have a job lot of drivers ready to go on day one, which would be a year or so’s training (assuming it’s remotely comparable to the U.K.).

 

[Horizon22]

Quite likely to be offered I would have thought. Drivers at my current TOC were offered that choice when Sundays were brought inside, and two links were created. All new started have Sundays inside so the Sundays outside link is gradually getting smaller.

Sundays inside will almost certainly become 100% the norm due to aspects such as this; its more how quickly it will happen rather than waiting for everyone in an "old" link to retire!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does that work in terms of operational staff? You’d need to have a job lot of drivers ready to go on day one, which would be a year or so’s training (assuming it’s remotely comparable to the U.K.).

I think they normally just offer jobs to the existing staff, but it does knacker continuity of employment and often they have no choice but to take poorer pay/conditions.

The main upside, though, is that it's easy to get rid of the bad apples, particularly management, which can be difficult in the UK.

 

[43066]

Sunday's inside will almost certainly become 100% the norm due to aspects such as this; its more how quickly it will happen rather than waiting for everyone in an "old" link to retire!

Is the willingness there to pay for it?

I rather think universal Sundays inside is a hobby horse of people on here rather than anything the DfT seriously want to implement (and fund) across the board.

I’d put £20 on many crew still having Sundays outside in another five years.

 

[Horizon22]

How does that work in terms of operational staff? You’d need to have a job lot of drivers ready to go on day one, which would be a year or so’s training (assuming it’s remotely comparable to the U.K.).

I've heard its a bit of a nightmare, but they have much longer mobilisation time.

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Is the willingness there to pay for it?

I rather think universal Sundays inside is a hobby horse of people on here rather than anything the DfT seriously want to implement (and fund) across the board.

I’d put £20 on many crew still having Sundays outside in another five years.

I meant through natural wastage, and people joining on Sundays "inside" links. I'm under no illusion of course that, if that becomes the only way Sunday working improves, it could be a decade or two.

 

[Egg Centric]

Would you be so kind as to do this analysis for all our staple foods and energy prices including the price rises over the same time frame please.

In terms of equivalent jobs, a significant number of jobs in the railways don’t have directly equivalent jobs elsewhere. So how do you propose to compare?

Over your timeframe, most railway jobs have had changes to terms and conditions. For example for some groups of maintenance staff, Sundays are part of the normal working week. Some staff get no extra money for working them. While others get 10%. This is significantly different to the 1980s T&Cs where Sunday working attracted time and three quarters pay for working them.

So it’s like comparing bananas with chickens.

I appreciate what you're saying - I'm asking for a lot of work, but I also think it's the kind of questions members of the public would be asking when they decide whether to sympathise or not. The onus isn't on me to justify or not (in the court of public opnion) the pay rises. The *default* position IMO should be "we sympathise but we're all in the same boat".

Equally, I understand the old V new or banana V chicken thing but just because it is *hard* to make the comparison doesn't mean it's impossible. Ultimately if you let the market sort it out harshly you will find an equilibrium price but this doesn't seem to be in the interests of most rail workers (except perhaps specialists, some of whom may find their wages hugely increased in a pure market system). I am not proposing this btw but that would be the most objective way.

I strongly suspect if there was an aggressive fire/rehire action then the railways would be stuffed for a couple of years and then recover on a much lower wage base. This is clearly an awful solution for absolutely everyone involved so I cannot understand what is effectively trying to provoke it. The work to rule plan seems infinitely better. Or just wait for a Labour government - can't be that long!

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If we take the view that wages are a function of supply and demand, and given that there are shortages of labour now (as evidenced by the numbers of “cancelled due to train crew unavailable” cancellations), depressing working conditions when there’s already shortages is not going to end well for anyone, even if we were to see some savage cuts.

Accelerate hiring and decrease standards. Wouldn't be hard at these wages.

 

[43066]

I meant through natural wastage, and people joining on Sundays "inside" links. I'm under no illusion of course that, if that becomes the only way Sunday working improves, it could be a decade or two.

Understood. I think we are in broad agreement on this.

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Accelerate hiring and decrease standards. Wouldn't be hard at these wages.

You could say that for most jobs. Lots of applicants doesn’t equal lots who are suitable to do the job.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

This is made easier by the absence of a TUPE equivalent (which is curious, as I'm sure someone told me a while back that TUPE exists as a result of an EU directive). In the UK they'd be required to take on the old staff on their old terms, in Germany they're not.

There is TUPE in some cases. For instance, the staff in my canteen at work were recently TUPE'd over from one company to another. I assume that due to the different model of operating and differences in the law they don't have to apply it.

In Britain, if a bus company took over running a subsidised bus service, and operated it with their own buses from their own depot, would they be required to take over the staff who previously drove the buses of the previous operator(even though they might subsequently not just drive that route but also other the operators other routes)?

How does that work in terms of operational staff? You’d need to have a job lot of drivers ready to go on day one, which would be a year or so’s training (assuming it’s remotely comparable to the U.K.).

A combination of, a lot of the new staff actually being the same as the old staff, services partly changing over early/late to speed up driver training and smooth the transition, training of drivers by independent training providers that when taken on by an operator are already licensed and only need company rules, traction and route training, and as already mentioned lower requirements for route learning due to use of written aids.

And to be clear - it doesn't always go smoothly, sometimes there are a whole lot of cancellations in the early days, or spot hire operators have to be brought in to help out.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The industry still has good senior leaders in the operators and NR but they need to collectively behave like their GBR already and take the initiative with the unions to explore what solutions there are to run the industry more efficiently. Currently im not sure any of the TOCs MDs will put their head above the parapet which means it left to Hendy/Haines to make the running with Shapps if they don't want to see the industry set back to the 70's.

 

[jayah]

This is where the RMT need some basic lessons in PR. If the average passenger sees a picket line of train cleaners who are striking because their minimum wage job doesn't cover the cost of living, then the average passenger will probably excuse the trains not looking clean. However, bring well paid roles in to the same dispute and the average passenger sees a picket line of rail employees, some of whom can afford to support their whole family on their salary alone and the plight of the lower paid staff gets overlooked.

There's going to be no pay rises until it's decided where the money will come from. The public won't support higher train fares or higher taxes to give on board train staff a pay rise, they want both train fares and taxes cut. While I don't support the current government, I do appreciate that they are in a difficult position regarding NHS staff getting pay rises, overall the public support that but don't support a 1p NI increase to increase funding for health and social care. Based on recent media reports it seems there may be a significant reduction in the number of public sector roles in the very near future, so it could be a pay rise for train drivers employed by OLR companies would come at the expense of imminent ticket office closures or more driver only operation.



Again that's the same problem. Those overworking themselves get tired and stressed, consequently they work slower and make more mistakes. I also forgot to mention tired and stressed employees are more likely to get in to arguments with co-workers. Then if the issue isn't resolved it means high staff turnover and longer hours results in higher costs associated with recruitment.


Some hospital staff doing night shifts do 4 long days, rather than 5 normal length days, to avoid staffing changeovers in the middle of the night.


The other conflict you're overlooking is medical appointments. Long working hours mean people have to take these during their normal working hours. Then you turn up at work one morning and find your colleague hasn't told you they'll be late in because of an appointment and it prevents you completing something on your to-do list.

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^^ This. A national rail strike will almost certainly force through legislation making the railways an essential service that cannot fully shut down in the event of a strike, putting 'essential workers' on the railways in the same category as 'essential workers' in prisons and hospitals. @dk1 says he likes the term rail workers were given but the term has meaning. If you run an essential service then provision has to be put in place to mean a strike causes reduced provision, rather than no provision. That doesn't just apply to railways. I'm such most parents would support teachers being on good pay and happy in their role but would also want provision in place to prevent them having to arrange last minute childcare if teachers went on strike.

Doing a hospital shift changeover at 2am has to be the most bizarre arguments yet advanced in favour of the four day week.

Of course a three shift system doesn't have changeovers in the middle of the night, and suddenly it is OK for hospital workers to make mistakes on 12hr shifts. 12hr shifts are endemic in many areas of work.

Your last piece refers to dumping. A responsible employee would tell someone they were going to be late and stay late the previous day to get their piece finished. Of course getting an 'appointment' for anything on the NHS is virtually impossible. Even if you get seen, you can't say to within 4hrs when this will happen.

 

[matacaster]

This is pure fantasy.

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By the same token giving 20,000 train drivers a raise is a damn sight cheaper than giving one to 500,000+ nurses…

I'm not talking about in-cab signalling, more driver assist in a similar way to sat navs in cars or lorries (which many people would never have believed would have largely replaced maps). Hgv and satnav can warn of various road restrictions and also note speed cameras. It would not be that difficult to build in additional features to suit rail without massive trackside or signalling expense. My suggestion would not lead to reduced driver competence or safety, but would enhance it. What I am suggesting is an in_cab driver aid, not some form of automation. This ought to significantly reduce driver training. it could also assist in making drivers route knowledge more extensive as acquiring it would be cheaoer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doing a hospital shift changeover at 2am has to be the most bizarre arguments yet advanced in favour of the four day week.

Of course a three shift system doesn't have changeovers in the middle of the night, and suddenly it is OK for hospital workers to make mistakes on 12hr shifts. 12hr shifts are endemic in many areas of work.

Your last piece refers to dumping. A responsible employee would tell someone they were going to be late and stay late the previous day to get their piece finished. Of course getting an 'appointment' for anything on the NHS is virtually impossible. Even if you get seen, you can't say to within 4hrs when this will happen.

Twelve hour shifts are not healthy, even if it does mean an extra rest day per week. Eight hours is a sensible length of working day to get proper levels of concentration.

The only sort of situation where a twelve hour shift would seem reasonably sensible is "passive" work, such as security guards guarding an office or factory complex while it's closed from about 6pm to 6am, where they'll be spending most of their time reading a book or something punctuated with cups of tea, a glance at the CCTV displays and a quick wander round - in many ways more like being "on call" than working the whole time. But not anything involving doing work (physical or mental) for the whole period.

 

[43066]

I'm not talking about in-cab signalling, more driver assist in a similar way to sat navs in cars or lorries (which many people would never have believed would have largely replaced maps). Hgv and satnav can warn of various road restrictions and also note speed cameras. It would not be that difficult to build in additional features to suit rail without massive trackside or signalling expense. My suggestion would not lead to reduced driver competence or safety, but would enhance it. What I am suggesting is an in_cab driver aid, not some form of automation. This ought to significantly reduce driver training. it could also assist in making drivers route knowledge more extensive as acquiring it would be cheaoer.

The bigger question (from what little I understand about software development) is: who would be prepared to pay for the development of a bespoke system of high enough fidelity to meet safety requirements, for a mere 20,000 odd U.K. train drivers who already drive the same route cards day in day out and don’t need it? It’s hardly a big market to cater to and would need to be far more accurate and precise then car sat nav.

Might as well just wait for ERTMS/ETCS to come in, which will reduce (but not eliminate) the requirement for route knowledge.

It’s a non starter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is TUPE in some cases. For instance, the staff in my canteen at work were recently TUPE'd over from one company to another. I assume that due to the different model of operating and differences in the law they don't have to apply it.

In Britain, if a bus company took over running a subsidised bus service, and operated it with their own buses from their own depot, would they be required to take over the staff who previously drove the buses of the previous operator(even though they might subsequently not just drive that route but also other the operators other routes)?

I'm not quite sure of that specific situation, to be honest. I have a feeling it still does, but there may be exceptions. But certainly operating trains on the same stretch of line it absolutely does.

 

[NI 271]

Like I've said multiple times, there's companies in this country that rip you off for remaining loyal. Even if you're offered a 20% pay rise, don't say loyal to the companies that are ripping you off. You don't need them and you can use your money in a way that's more beneficial to you.

Like I said once, which I deem sufficient, you could have done all that before the recent hike in inflation. Indeed, many people do precisely that, and have done for years. I don't know why you keep repeating yourself, what you're saying doesn't become any more relevant just because you post it repeatedly. Do you think people aren't aware of it, and haven't been for many years? There's a whole industry based around switching people onto lower-cost energy/tv/phone/broadband plans, and it's been going for at least a decade. Even those sodding meerkats are at it in tv adverts over car insurance...

 

[JamesT]

This is made easier by the absence of a TUPE equivalent (which is curious, as I'm sure someone told me a while back that TUPE exists as a result of an EU directive). In the UK they'd be required to take on the old staff on their old terms, in Germany they're not.

TUPE is our implementation of the Transfers of Undertakings Directive. However the EU directive is somewhat narrower as it only seems to apply to companies or parts thereof being transferred. Whereas we added on the transfer of a service being contracted as well. https://www.eversheds-sutherland.co...ational-employment-law/TUPE_across_Europe.pdf has a comparison.