Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[northwichcat]

Just what happened to this country to have people start to think like this? That is the bare minimum people should be asking for, and your caveats are utterly irrelevant to that.

Like I've said multiple times, there's companies in this country that rip you off for remaining loyal. Even if you're offered a 20% pay rise, don't say loyal to the companies that are ripping you off. You don't need them and you can use your money in a way that's more beneficial to you. If your mobile provider tells you the monthly cost is increasing by 25% when you could actually save money by switching, it would be idiotic to accept the 25% increase and then start demanding a 25% pay rise.

Increasing you pay isn't the only thing your employer can do to make it better work place and some of the other things they can do require money too.

The stated date range starts on 7th June. However, it’s likely that the companies will agree to further talks, so it depends on if there is any movement from the companies (and the government).

Doesn't the RMT's aspiration for a national strike depend on all companies agreeing to talks or no companies agreeing to talks? If they ballot members at one TOC and they vote for strike action, wouldn't it be disrespectful to tell their members to wait a month while talks happen at other TOCs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

That is all well and good, not so much if every company is putting their prices up or you are still within contract.

You're most likely to get ripped off at the end of a contract term if you don't do anything and you automatically go on to a rolling contract on less favourable terms. Of course it does work the other way as well with mobile providers removing free roaming from those who agree to new contracts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

Be careful what you wish for. Withdrawal of labour (which is what a strike is) is part of being a free and democratic country. If you allow a government to start removing rights, we may eventually end up like Putin’s Russia where saying the wrong thing gets you jailed for fifteen years.

That's a bit extreme. There are western European countries where the railways have always remained partially open during strike action and it's permitted under the European Convention on Human Rights. Tramways and Metro systems can close fully during strike action but not the railways. Remember those who don't own cars are entitled to be able to move freely around the country. (Remember the protests against lockdown restrictions)? If rail unions hold the government/train operators to ransom with a prolonged strike, a human right of those without their own transport is removed by a trade union that they can't vote out.

 

[Annetts key]

Doesn't the RMT's aspiration for a national strike depend on all companies agreeing to talks or no companies agreeing to talks? If they ballot members at one TOC and they vote for strike action, wouldn't it be disrespectful to tell their members to wait a month while talks happen at other TOCs?

It very much depends on what the results are.

If there is overwhelming support for action from Network Rail, even if not all TOC staff vote in favour, that would be one thing. But there are other possibilities.

 

[LowLevel]

I have had the thankless task of being a roster clerk & nearly went into train planning. Having however been on the railway since I was 16 I still don’t feel institutionalised. My parents ran a pub for most of my childhood & until I was 21 so know how hard it could be to run your own business & all the stress that goes with it. I was lined up to follow in their footsteps but had no intention whatsoever of doing so seeing what was involved at close hand. After joining the railway in 1984 I never looked back. Best decision I ever made & opting for the driving grade in 1998 has been the icing on the cake.

DCO is a good combination for both grades I think & on the whole has worked well since we had it forced upon us in 2019. I do get the impression that many guards miss doing the doors even though they took no financial hit for losing this important safety critical role & one that could land them in court or worse if neglect was proven should anything go wrong during dispatch.

I would imagine it's OK when it's busy but otherwise quite boring as you lose a lot to focus your mind on.

I'd also hate not being able to step outside except by exception.

Happily our TOC appears to be fairly set on retaining full guard working regardless otherwise I think I'd be looking at alternative options.

 

[43066]

Happily our TOC appears to be fairly set on retaining full guard working regardless otherwise I think I'd be looking at alternative options.

Indeed the regional side is about the best place to be. Albeit there seems to be a fair bit of paranoia that the Connect operation will go over to GTR - can’t see it myself.

 

[Philip]

Away from industrial action for a moment, I quite like taking most of my Sundays off at the moment. If Northern/GBR decide to bring Sundays into the working week for non-traincrew, would those of us who aren't keen on working Sundays have the option to opt out in exchange for a lower salary?

Or is that choice not usually offered and so would we have to book leave to have Sundays off?

 

[43066]

Away from industrial action for a moment, I quite like taking most of my Sundays off at the moment. If Northern/GBR decide to bring Sundays into the working week for non-traincrew, would those of us who aren't keen on working Sundays have the option to opt out in exchange for a lower salary?

Or is that not choice not usually offered and so would we have to book leave to have Sundays off?

Quite likely to be offered I would have thought. Drivers at my current TOC were offered that choice when Sundays were brought inside, and two links were created. All new started have Sundays inside so the Sundays outside link is gradually getting smaller.

 

[Efini92]

Quite likely to be offered I would have thought. Drivers at my current TOC were offered that choice when Sundays were brought inside, and two links were created. All new started have Sundays inside so the Sundays outside link is gradually getting smaller.

Is that HSS? Don’t they have vastly different T&C’s?

 

[andystock22]

A national rail strike will just lead to increased working from home, less income for the DfT and Network Rail, which will then mean more cost cuts.

 

[northwichcat]

Away from industrial action for a moment, I quite like taking most of my Sundays off at the moment. If Northern/GBR decide to bring Sundays into the working week for non-traincrew, would those of us who aren't keen on working Sundays have the option to opt out in exchange for a lower salary?

Or is that choice not usually offered and so would we have to book leave to have Sundays off?

It depends if the union agrees it on your behalf. Where there's no collective bargaining in place you could remain opted out even if most others agree to it. I thought there was an exception for retail staff, which could extend to ticket office staff but it seems it only applies to shop staff.

From gov.uk

Having to work on a Sunday depends on whether it’s mentioned in either the person’s:

• employment contract
• written statement of terms and conditions

A worker can’t be made to work on Sundays unless they agreed it with their employer and put it in writing (for example, changed the contract).

Employers only have to pay staff more for working on Sundays if it has been agreed as part of the contract.

Staff don’t have to work on Sundays if they’re:

• shop workers who started with their employer on or before 26 August 1994 (in Northern Ireland, this is on or before 4 December 1997)
• betting shop workers who started with their employer on or before 2 January 1995 (in Northern Ireland, this is on or before 26 February 2004)

Sunday working

The rules for working on Sundays, opt in, opt out arrangements, rules for shop and betting shop workers

www.gov.uk

 

[43066]

Is that HSS? Don’t they have vastly different T&C’s?

I’m not at that one.

(Assuming you’re referring to GWR Paddington)

 

[Efini92]

I’m not at that one.

(Assuming you’re referring to GWR Paddington)

Yeah that’s the one. I don’t begrudge the ones who voted for it as it was essentially a free payrise and didn’t affect anyone employed, the future employees knew what they were signing up for.

 

[43066]

Yeah that’s the one. I don’t begrudge the ones who voted for it as it was essentially a free payrise and didn’t affect anyone employed, the future employees knew what they were signing up for.

It seems by far the best solution all round.

 

[Efini92]

It seems by far the best solution all round.

It’s just a shame employees doing the same job for the same company are on different T&C’s.

 

[Philip]

Quite likely to be offered I would have thought. Drivers at my current TOC were offered that choice when Sundays were brought inside, and two links were created. All new started have Sundays inside so the Sundays outside link is gradually getting smaller.

It depends if the union agrees it on your behalf. Where there's no collective bargaining in place you could remain opted out even if most others agree to it. I thought there was an exception for retail staff, which could extend to ticket office staff but it seems it only applies to shop staff.

From gov.uk

Having to work on a Sunday depends on whether it’s mentioned in either the person’s:

• employment contract
• written statement of terms and conditions

A worker can’t be made to work on Sundays unless they agreed it with their employer and put it in writing (for example, changed the contract).

Employers only have to pay staff more for working on Sundays if it has been agreed as part of the contract.

Staff don’t have to work on Sundays if they’re:

• shop workers who started with their employer on or before 26 August 1994 (in Northern Ireland, this is on or before 4 December 1997)
• betting shop workers who started with their employer on or before 2 January 1995 (in Northern Ireland, this is on or before 26 February 2004)

Sunday working

The rules for working on Sundays, opt in, opt out arrangements, rules for shop and betting shop workers

www.gov.uk

Thanks, hopefully the union will agree to it if it comes to it.

 

[dk1]

It’s just a shame employees doing the same job for the same company are on different T&C’s.

That can’t be helped really in some cases. My TOC has had three separate drivers all on three separate T&Cs because we where merged 18 years ago & none will give anything away obviously unless a spectacular harmonisation deal was offered. It hasn’t so it remains as is.

 

[43066]

That's a bit extreme. There are western European countries where the railways have always remained partially open during strike action and it's permitted under the European Convention on Human Rights.

Worth noting they have “minimum service levels” legislation in France, and it seems to have very little impact on the ability of the railway unions there to cause absolute chaos when they need to…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

That can’t be helped really in some cases. My TOC has had three separate drivers all on three separate T&Cs because we where merged 18 years ago & none will give anything away obviously unless a spectacular harmonisation deal was offered. It hasn’t so it remains as is.

Indeed.

At “dead man’s shoes” depots as I’m sure yours is (and mine was at least until recently) these changes could take fifteen or twenty years to filter through.

 

[Efini92]

That can’t be helped really in some cases. My TOC has had three separate drivers all on three separate T&Cs because we where merged 18 years ago & none will give anything away obviously unless a spectacular harmonisation deal was offered. It hasn’t so it remains as is.

That’s a good point. It’s a shame they can’t take the best from all three. But then again everyone will have a different opinion on what’s the best.

 

[dk1]

At “dead man’s shoes” depots as I’m sure yours is (and mine was at least until recently) these changes could take fifteen or twenty years to filter through.

And the rest mate. All new entrants at all three ex-companies join their respective depot on the same T&Cs of all the current drivers. No mix & match on this patch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

That’s a good point. It’s a shame they can’t take the best from all three. But then again everyone will have a different opinion on what’s the best.

That’s just it. Who is going to concede anything in their job without some gain? It’s been overwhelmingly rejected twice now.

 

[Class 170101]

Nail on the head! The unserious nature of Johnson and his gang is maddening.

dishonest and perhaps insincere rather than unserious I would suggest.

 

[matacaster]

If there is a very damaging strike, as per 1970s in my opinion, eventually the govt will win and public sympathy will decrease with time. Solutions to driver shortages include dramatically reducing the training time via use of what is effectively real-time screen based route driver information in cabs. This is perfectly feasible and doesn't need anything like the investment or time driverless trains need. No longer any need for drivers to learn and retain route knowledge and make no mistake allowances can be made for driving conditions like greasy rails etc in the software. Many other industries have seen complex jobs deskilled in this way (remember the newsprint workers, wheeltappers). WFH was on the rise but slowly until covid. When the negotiated settlements with rail workers were bearable from TOC perspective, they agreed to them. The Govt is facing calls for all manner of actors who want more spending on them, let alone just pay rises. They need public support to bring driving trains into the 21st century and a prolonged painful strike could easily do it. It is even conceivable that govt might scrap hs2 beyond Birmingham.

IT is sad that ticket offices will largely disappear and particularly hard on the workers who will lose their jobs, but this kind of thing has always happened. There will be few bank branches in the country in due course, closures are announced with ever greater frequency. Freight on the railways has a chance to give the railways a better future, but logistics companies and supermarkets etc will not tolerate an industry which can be shut down or rendered useless by working to rule.

A solution would involve looking at what railway the country wants and what is affordable. Then seeing what staff at what levels are required to operate it and create new flexible. contracts of employment (which could improve on the current situation). Harking back to rules which date from the days of steam is simply stupid and used as a bargaining chip.

For those who say that MPs got a rise, I agree that that should not have happened, but sadly all MPs of all parties (surprise) agreed to it. From the govt perspective, 650 x a couple of thousand pounds is peanuts to the treasury, whilst tens of thousands of railway workers x a small increase is a lot of money.

 

[43066]

Solutions to driver shortages include dramatically reducing the training time via use of what is effectively real-time screen based route driver information in cabs. This is perfectly feasible and doesn't need anything like the investment or time driverless trains need. No longer any need for drivers to learn and retain route knowledge and make no mistake allowances can be made for driving conditions like greasy rails etc in the software.

This is pure fantasy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

For those who say that MPs got a rise, I agree that that should not have happened, but sadly all MPs of all parties (surprise) agreed to it. From the govt perspective, 650 x a couple of thousand pounds is peanuts to the treasury, whilst tens of thousands of railway workers x a small increase is a lot of money.

By the same token giving 20,000 train drivers a raise is a damn sight cheaper than giving one to 500,000+ nurses…

 

[footprints]

An RMT regional update for London Underground staff issued on Friday 20 May floats the possibility of future 'all grade' strike dates on London Underground being coordinated with any action announced in the national dispute.

The NEC has also committed to further all grades strike action in support of our fight for jobs, pensions and conditions and will consider co-ordinating this action with any action taken on Network rail and the train Operating Companies by RMT members after 24 May.

 

[dk1]

This is pure fantasy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

Agreed but has given me a good laugh tonight.

 

[43066]

Agreed but has given me a good laugh tonight.

Probably easier and cheaper to close the railway completely and issue all the passengers magic carpets .

I do agree with the comments re. ticket offices sadly, the writing has been on the wall there for a long time. I highly doubt there will be compulsory redundancies, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I highly doubt there will be compulsory redundancies, though.

I'd probably agree. As many ticket office staff appear to be at the older end of things, an early retirement offer coupled with offering other customer service roles would probably allow ticket offices to be slowly ramped down and staff moved around a bit until there are none left.

Practically, they really don't have much of a future, with sales increasingly online or payment by contactless.

 

[Efini92]

Probably easier and cheaper to close the railway completely and issue all the passengers magic carpets .

I do agree with the comments re. ticket offices sadly, the writing has been on the wall there for a long time. I highly doubt there will be compulsory redundancies, though.

Probably more likely to see magic carpets in service before this in cab system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably more likely to see magic carpets in service before this in cab system.

Deutsche Bahn have had the Buchfahrplan and electronic version for years, and that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the need for route learning. Practically, though, without commenting on whether it's good or bad, DOO is a much more likely way to cut on-board staff costs. If the Government is in the mood for a showdown, it can just be forced - there would be a period of pain but in the end it'd get through*, people can't afford to strike forever. See the miners for an example

* Even on Southern there's a sneaky way to get it in - move more Southern-branded services to Thameslink-branded...

 

[FManc]

If there is a very damaging strike, as per 1970s in my opinion, eventually the govt will win and public sympathy will decrease with time. Solutions to driver shortages include dramatically reducing the training time via use of what is effectively real-time screen based route driver information in cabs. This is perfectly feasible and doesn't need anything like the investment or time driverless trains need. No longer any need for drivers to learn and retain route knowledge and make no mistake allowances can be made for driving conditions like greasy rails etc in the software. Many other industries have seen complex jobs deskilled in this way (remember the newsprint workers, wheeltappers).

Hahaha can I have some of what you’re on!

 

[Efini92]

Deutsche Bahn have had the Buchfahrplan and electronic version for years, and that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the need for route learning. Practically, though, without commenting on whether it's good or bad, DOO is a much more likely way to cut on-board staff costs. If the Government is in the mood for a showdown, it can just be forced - there would be a period of pain but in the end it'd get through*, people can't afford to strike forever. See the miners for an example

* Even on Southern there's a sneaky way to get it in - move more Southern-branded services to Thameslink-branded...

Germany had to rebuild most of their railways after the Second World War. I honestly can’t see it ever working on the WCML unless we spend all our GDP on it.
You’re probably right about DOO, sadly, I’m sure we’re going to see more disputes popping up over it. Personally I think the way to save costs would be to merge companies and cut down on middle and higher management positions. Go back to something like BR’s sectorisation.

 

[43066]

See the miners for an example

The mines are a bit of a red herring simply because they were basically commercially unviable given cheaper coal being imported from abroad. The railways aren’t facing closure, remain very important to the bit of the country that really matters economically, and indeed have a strong future that dovetails with the “green agenda”.

GTR/TL already had DOO as part of their contracts so it was always a foregone conclusion. Yes it could be forced through everywhere, but it would be very bloody. Given the relatively low cost of train crew in the grand scheme of public sector spending, and this government’s established penchant for taking the line of least resistance in all situations, I’m hopefully that we won’t see the apocalyptic outcomes some are predicting.