Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Skie]

Slightly off topic, I guess, but what happened to the mock up of the 777 that was built for public viewing?
I saw it and was quite impressed (saw the guys building it, too). None of the staff I spoke to seem to know what was happening with it afterwards.

It was donated to the National College for Advanced Transport & Infrastructure (NCATI) in Doncaster where it’s become a hands on teaching aid.

 

[D821]

It was donated to the National College for Advanced Transport & Infrastructure (NCATI) in Doncaster where it’s become a hands on teaching aid.

Glad to hear it didn't go to waste.
Thanks!

 

[507020]

I knew the old trains from back at the time of the last changeover, and indeed before. The general feeling on The Wirral was the new ones were not as good for passengers, and to tell you the truth the new ones now coming along don't seem to equal them either. I'll defer comparison of the physical seats until I have sat in one.

But for reliability the 507/508s were a notable dropoff, with cancellations and delays like had never (ever, for me) happened previously - something I've written about here before. Bear in mind that's a comparison of 40-year old trains with new ones as well.

I don’t think anything will be able to equal engineering of the pre-war LMS. Initially, the power supply wasn’t powerful enough for the 507s and 508s when they were new, which caused all of the issues. It was upgraded at some point in the 1980s. Merseyrail is of course now the most reliable operator and delays and cancellations very rarely happen. I have physically sat on more than one of the 777 seats, but not for any length of time and I can’t work out whether they would become uncomfortable during a journey, but they definitely aren’t the worst, although I haven’t had the misfortune of sitting on the worst train seats of the last few years.

Slightly off topic, I guess, but what happened to the mock up of the 777 that was built for public viewing?
I saw it and was quite impressed (saw the guys building it, too). None of the staff I spoke to seem to know what was happening with it afterwards.

 

[ADHDTog]

But that's the point, stock hasn't been using it, it has trees growing through the trackbed at the entrance (or at least it did last I went past last year).. Or did I miss read your post? (apologies if I have)

Would a quick fix not be, removed the old shed and vegetation and leave it un electrified, unless I am making it up, don't the 777s have shunt battery?

There is something going on...

 

[LeonO]

There is something going on...

View attachment 112052

Platform extension

 

[507020]

There is something going on...

Where is that?

 

[L401CJF]

Where is that?

Appears to be Birkenhead Cent

 

[Pacef8]

Trains are off again tomorrow morning so i presume more clearance.

 

[L401CJF]

4x class 20s currently sat in Crewe stn with 777010 and 049 in tow.

 

[8A Rail]

Updated list of current locations in the light of transfer of four units early this morning with the usual loco's - 20205 / 20189 and 20142 / 20007.

No 777010 and 049 to Kirkdale. No 777002 and 005 to Crewe.

Kirkdale C.S. = 003, 005, 007, 009, 010, 013, 015, 018 and 049.
Crewe C.S. = 001, 002, 004, 005, 006, 008, 012, 014, and 016.

Edit below: posted Friday 1st April. (it would not allow me post it as a seperate message, kept merging - why?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2022 ==

There was another move late Wednesday evening with the usual four Class 20's from Crewe to Kirkdale, see: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K36017/2022-03-30/detailed (the return was loco's and barriers direct to Kings Norton), does anyone know which Class 777's unit(s) were moved please?

 

[L401CJF]

Updated list of current locations in the light of transfer of four units early this morning with the usual loco's - 20205 / 20189 and 20142 / 20007.

No 777010 and 049 to Kirkdale. No 777002 and 005 to Crewe.

Kirkdale C.S. = 003, 005, 007, 009, 010, 013, 015, 018 and 049.
Crewe C.S. = 001, 002, 004, 005, 006, 008, 012, 014, and 016.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2022 ==

There was another move late Wednesday evening with the usual four Class 20's from Crewe to Kirkdale, see: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K36017/2022-03-30/detailed (the return was loco's and barriers direct to Kings Norton), does anyone know which Class 777's unit(s) were moved please?

After seeing the locos with 010 and 049 in Crewe station around 11am, it turns out they departed south again and were stabled in a passing loop(?) Opposite Arriva traincare on the down side of the WCML and were still there (complete with locos and flashing tail lamps) when i went past around 3pm.

Presume 010 and 049 didnt actually move North until the evening?

 

[8A Rail]

After seeing the locos with 010 and 049 in Crewe station around 11am, it turns out they departed south again and were stabled in a passing loop(?) Opposite Arriva traincare on the down side of the WCML and were still there (complete with locos and flashing tail lamps) when i went past around 3pm.

Presume 010 and 049 didnt actually move North until the evening?

Your observation could well be correct, which meant I jump the gun with suggesting they were transferred very early Wednesday morning. Need to pay more attention to the headcodes then.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Not only that but the tunnels themselves ( & bridges ) are not suitable for AC OHL, take a look at when a train arrives in at one of the Merseyrail underground stations & they only just fit under the tunnel roof, it'll cost millions if not billions to upgrade the tunnels alone to AC OHL.

prior to the introduction of the 507/508s on the Wirral lines some 313s were sent north to do gauging and clearance tests (I remember seeing one passing through Liverpool Central). I'm not positive but I believe that at least one still had its pantograph fitted (but tightly strapped down). The 777s are designed to be dual voltage capable: either 750dc and 25kV, or 750dc and battery. Whilst the existing infrastructure underground isn't capable of OHL fitment the new 777s certainly are capable of running under the wires as well as third rail if the decision was made.
The traction motors are AC aren't they?

 

[Skie]

The traction motors are AC aren't they?

DC motors. The space for AC current conversion kit is where the batteries would go, hence why they can only be DC + Battery or DC + AC

 

[92002]

prior to the introduction of the 507/508s on the Wirral lines some 313s were sent north to do gauging and clearance tests (I remember seeing one passing through Liverpool Central). I'm not positive but I believe that at least one still had its pantograph fitted (but tightly strapped down). The 777s are designed to be dual voltage capable: either 750dc and 25kV, or 750dc and battery. Whilst the existing infrastructure underground isn't capable of OHL fitment the new 777s certainly are capable of running under the wires as well as third rail if the decision was made.
The traction motors are AC aren't they?

No doubt they could run in the tunnels on battery, if so fitted. However the optimum solution in other area would be 25Kv, which costs Considerably less to distribute and run on than DC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DC motors. The space for AC current conversion kit is where the batteries would go, hence why they can only be DC + Battery or DC + AC

DC motors on a brand new unit? Are you absolutely sure? I would be astonished if they were.

 

[Ribbleman]

One option that has been discussed for running trains through from Liverpool to Wrexham is to have a couple of miles of the route electrified overhead at 750dc to allow battery recharging on the move. That was before last summer’s battery trials with 777002 and forthcoming tests with another set, presumably 049, fitted with larger batteries, which will determine how far sets can safely travel between charges. A fast recharging facility at Wrexham Central and another en route, perhaps at Shotton, might be a rather cheaper alternative.

 

[ivzem]

DC motors on a brand new unit? Are you absolutely sure? I would be astonished if they were.

definitely AC motors. (modern trains convert from AC to DC (if their power supply is AC), then back to variable-frequency AC to power the motors themselves; it's that first stage (the AC->DC transformers) whose installation would require removing the batteries.)

 

[Skie]

DC motors on a brand new unit? Are you absolutely sure? I would be astonished if they were.

You’re most likely correct, my knowledge of the traction package is limited to: its bloody fast

 

[507020]

The traction motors are AC aren't they?

DC motors. The space for AC current conversion kit is where the batteries would go, hence why they can only be DC + Battery or DC + AC

DC motors on a brand new unit? Are you absolutely sure? I would be astonished if they were.

definitely AC motors. (modern trains convert from AC to DC (if their power supply is AC), then back to variable-frequency AC to power the motors themselves; it's that first stage (the AC->DC transformers) whose installation would require removing the batteries.)

David Powell confirmed to me while on board a 777 that the motors are in deed AC (3 phase of course) and this should be obvious given that nothing has been built with DC motors since the late 1980s.

An AC traction package alters the motors speed of rotation by varying the frequency of the Alternating Current as well as the voltage. If the motors ran directly from the 25kV 50Hz, they would only be able to run at a fixed speed and unable to stop. They would also be unable to start and have no control over the direction of travel with only a single phase, hence the need for 3 phase AC to provide a rotating magnetic field within the motor.

The 777s traction systems are of course DC INPUT ideal for running on the 3rd rail or battery and equally capable of running on a DC overhead system if one was installed somewhere, so AC naturally requires the addition of a transformer and traction converter, but they were designed in such a way that the designated space can only be occupied by either a the AC equipment OR a battery, making it impossible for battery Southport/Ormskirk - Preston services to recharge from the wires on the WCML for example.

Regulation requires that all new trains be equipped with some passive provision to run on AC, however for some strange reason this doesn’t apply to Diesels and we have ended up with Diesel-only Civitys. The 507/508s were of course capable of being converted for AC operation, being based on the dual voltage 313s, however they lack a pantograph well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regulation requires that all new trains be equipped with some passive provision to run on AC, however for some strange reason this doesn’t apply to Diesels and we have ended up with Diesel-only Civitys. The 507/508s were of course capable of being converted for AC operation, being based on the dual voltage 313s, however they lack a pantograph well.

The Civities are not the worst of that, as mechanical DMUs adding a pantograph would add huge cost. What is absolutely nuts is the Welsh having built Stadler DEMUs (231s) without a pantograph and transformer, which would have added very little to the cost and potentially been very useful later.

 

[dm1]

The Civities are not the worst of that, as mechanical DMUs adding a pantograph would add huge cost. What is absolutely nuts is the Welsh having built Stadler DEMUs (231s) without a pantograph and transformer, which would have added very little to the cost and potentially been very useful later.

Flirts are a very modular train. I'm fairly certain, that a pantograph and transformer could be installed at a later date if desired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flirts are a very modular train. I'm fairly certain, that a pantograph and transformer could be installed at a later date if desired.

If you can shove diesel engines under a used 40 year old Tube train and create a vaguely usable-ish DMU, you can pretty much do anything. But it's always easier and generally cheaper to do it at the time of build.

 

[Snapper]

Well, we though they'd have gone by now, but as the 507/508s are surprising us by running all services still here's a picture blog looking at the history of both fleets from 1990 to the present. Who knows when the first 777 will actually carry passengers and the transition begin? https://paulbigland.blog/2018/11/12/the-twilight-of-the-merseyrail-class-507-508-fleets/

 

[karlbbb]

Well, we though they'd have gone by now, but as the 507/508s are surprising us by running all services still here's a picture blog looking at the history of both fleets from 1990 to the present. Who knows when the first 777 will actually carry passengers and the transition begin? https://paulbigland.blog/2018/11/12/the-twilight-of-the-merseyrail-class-507-508-fleets/

Last mention I saw on Merseyrail's Twitter said "late 2022 and into 2023" for the transition. It's just getting pushed back and pushed back...

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't know who thought the 507s and 508s would be gone by now. We've just ordered a new fleet of trains and they won't be guard operated, is that OK with you? was never going to go down well with the unions. Unless some benefactor comes up with a lot of money the 507s and 508s could be in use for several years to come.

 

[507020]

Last mention I saw on Merseyrail's Twitter said "late 2022 and into 2023" for the transition. It's just getting pushed back and pushed back...

But have they actually achieved anything that will make them be able to introduce them into service this year?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know who thought the 507s and 508s would be gone by now. We've just ordered a new fleet of trains and they won't be guard operated, is that OK with you? was never going to go down well with the unions. Unless some benefactor comes up with a lot of money the 507s and 508s could be in use for several years to come.

I thought they had found funding to retain a second member of staff, and what remained was just a debate about exactly who presses which button when?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I thought they had found funding to retain a second member of staff, and what remained was just a debate about exactly who presses which button when?

It's like the 'Come fly with me' episode where Tommy is learning how to operate the till!

......... "Press this one, now press it again" ........

 

[karlbbb]

But have they actually achieved anything that will make them be able to introduce them into service this year?

No idea, I'm just a casual user of Merseyrail with a hope to be on the new trains asap