Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Bertie the bus]

I thought they had found funding to retain a second member of staff, and what remained was just a debate about exactly who presses which button when?

Has there been any public announcements confirming that? The last concrete thing I can find is from the RMT last June saying there had been no progress at all:

RMT calls for urgent progress on new Merseyrail fleet

RAIL UNION RMT today called for urgent progress to be made over the introduction of the new fleet of Merseyrail trains warning that the expensive new units are being left to rust in the sidings at serious cost to the taxpayer.

www.rmt.org.uk

RMT Press Office:

RMT calls for urgent progress to be made over introduction of new Merseyrail fleet with the guard guarantee enshrined.

RAIL UNION RMT today called for urgent progress to be made over the introduction of the new fleet of Merseyrail trains warning that the expensive new units are being left to rust in the sidings at serious cost to the taxpayer.

The union will be involved in talks with the Metro Mayor and Merseytravel later this month and is looking to move forward the “agreement in principle” that would guarantee a safety-critical guard on every train and at last ‎bring the new fleet into full operation.

General Secretary Mick Lynch said;

“RMT negotiated with Merseyrail and the City Region, an “agreement in principle” over eighteen months ago. That draft agreement would have resolved this long running dispute and moved the process onto an agreement with the train drivers representatives and introduction of the new trains.

“We have had no discussions with any of the parties for over a year despite repeated calls from RMT for progress. Now as we predicted, these brand new trains, paid for by the Merseyside Council tax payers, are being sent to storage at great additional cost.

“We note and welcome the meeting that’s finally been arranged for 29th June, with the newly re-elected Metro Mayor and Merseytravel leaders. We will be seeking to end this five-year long dispute, building on the “agreement in principle” previously reached, that secures RMTs demand, supported by the Merseyside public, of retaining a safety critical Guard on board, and finally puts these new trains into service, and not into storage sidings around the UK gathering rust.”

 

[urbophile]

When was the Metro Mayor 'newly re-elected'? I don't remember any recent election.

 

[8A Rail]

When was the Metro Mayor 'newly re-elected'? I don't remember any recent election.

Last year, May 2021. Only got re-elected after counting the second choice votes as I understand. So Rotheram is there until May 2025 unfortunately!

 

[MattRat]

Last year, May 2021. Only got re-elected after counting the second choice votes as I understand. So Rotheram is there until May 2025 unfortunately!

He'll be there much longer. Liverpool is a Labour stronghold. If you don't vote Labour, you're either Tory **** or a secret Tory (other's words, not mine). Personally, I think it was better under the Lib Dems, but I've always had opinions that are considered heresy so.....

Anyway, in relation to trains, the current council and MPs know they can do whatever and still get in (even Joe Anderson couldn't ruin their chances), so expect them to not really be bothered about the new train introduction.

 

[childwallblues]

He'll be there much longer. Liverpool is a Labour stronghold. If you don't vote Labour, you're either Tory **** or a secret Tory (other's words, not mine). Personally, I think it was better under the Lib Dems, but I've always had opinions that are considered heresy so.....

Anyway, in relation to trains, the current council and MPs know they can do whatever and still get in (even Joe Anderson couldn't ruin their chances), so expect them to not really be bothered about the new train i

 

[railwaytrack]

So are the RMT and Merseyrail still disagreeing on the exact method of operation and whether the Guards will continue to open and close the doors or if they will move to an AGA style operation? If so is this one of the things that is causing the 777s to take so long to enter service? Is there a there anything else that is preventing them from entering service sooner? Are the 777s having any issues like certain other new trains are having? It seems like every new train these days takes forever to enter in to passenger service. It used to be a lot quicker for new trains to enter service in the past.

Do the 777s even have door control panels on them? When i went to have a look when one was displayed at one of the stations to the public i do not remember seeing any door control panels but i could be wrong? Lets hope they have not made the same mistake as the LNWR/WMR 196/730 and ordered them without any door control panels. As if they agree that the Guards will continue to open and close the doors than that will mean a lot more delays while they fit them with door control panels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Door panels are being retrofitted.

 

[railwaytrack]

Door panels are being retrofitted.

I don't know why so many operators have ordered stock without door panels. First the LNWR/WMR 196/730 and now the Merseyrail 777 too. They should just order all stock these days with door panels regardless of if they are planned to be DOO or not like they did with the 700 and 717 trains. It would save wasting all this time and money with retrofitting door panels. I wonder if TFW have made this mistake with their 197/231/398/756 too. It would not surprise me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is unlikely the 777s will end up anywhere other than Merseyrail, but it certainly makes sense to order everything else to be capable of both DOO and guard operation or any combination thereof for maximum flexibility later.

 

[railwaytrack]

It is unlikely the 777s will end up anywhere other than Merseyrail, but it certainly makes sense to order everything else to be capable of both DOO and guard operation or any combination thereof for maximum flexibility later.

Indeed it would make a lot more sense to order all stock capable of being both Guard worked or DOO operated. I have just looked at my photos of the 777 cab and i see that the driver cab dashboard does not even have a bell button. So i imagine that will be very expensive to add a bell button to the driver cab dashboard on all the units. They really should have thought about this before ordering them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Or just have them driver-controlled, as designed. It doesn't mean you have to get rid of the second member of staff. It does speed up door operation, which is important on a metro service such as Merseyrail.

 

[railwaytrack]

Or just have them driver-controlled, as designed. It doesn't mean you have to get rid of the second member of staff. It does speed up door operation, which is important on a metro service such as Merseyrail.

I think that is what AGA currently do on their 745/755 trains. There is a guaranteed second member of staff onboard but they have nothing to do with opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train. So maybe that is what Merseyrail are hoping to do.

 

[185]

It does speed up door operation, which is important on a metro service such as Merseyrail.

Only speeds them up on badly designed stock. Conventionally operated trains catching up with DCO stock does happen, and the station dwell times are telling.

All trains should be ordered with (some) panels capable of being activated by guards, and when not activated, allows the train to be used in DOO mode - eg Siemens Desiro stock - no guard keyed in, driver turns controller to neutral, door panel lights up behind them.

Even on strictly DOO routes, these would be useful during major crowd events where (suitably qualified) platform staff could assist, operating doors from a middle panel.

 

[AlexNL]

I don't know why so many operators have ordered stock without door panels. First the LNWR/WMR 196/730 and now the Merseyrail 777 too.

In this case it's not down to Merseyrail (Serco-Abellio, who hold the contract until 2028) but it's all down to Merseytravel. They ordered the 777s with the idea of getting rid of the guards altogether, and Merseyrail just had to work with it.

It took 3 years of industrial action for Merseytravel to change their minds, by then the build process was well underway already.

 

[L401CJF]

I don't know why so many operators have ordered stock without door panels. First the LNWR/WMR 196/730 and now the Merseyrail 777 too. They should just order all stock these days with door panels regardless of if they are planned to be DOO or not like they did with the 700 and 717 trains. It would save wasting all this time and money with retrofitting door panels. I wonder if TFW have made this mistake with their 197/231/398/756 too. It would not surprise me.

197s do have guard panels throughout the saloons.

 

[507020]

So are the RMT and Merseyrail still disagreeing on the exact method of operation and whether the Guards will continue to open and close the doors or if they will move to an AGA style operation? If so is this one of the things that is causing the 777s to take so long to enter service?

It took 3 years of industrial action for Merseytravel to change their minds, by then the build process was well underway already.

Given that we supposedly know that Merseytravel changed its mind after those 3 years of industrial action and being taken over by the mind and wallet of Steve Rotheram, why are we still not sure whether they are finished coming to an agreement with the RMT? There is no reason for them not to keep guards if they want them to enter service, so it would seem they have been ordered solely to look new while sitting in sidings. If they continue to insist on DOO, DCO or any method of operation not centred around a safety critical door operating role for the guard, they must simply have no intention of them entering service ever.

Do the 777s even have door control panels on them? When i went to have a look when one was displayed at one of the stations to the public i do not remember seeing any door control panels

Door panels are being retrofitted.

Units that have been delivered without them should be being fitted with them in this country, while units that haven’t are being fitted with them at the factory to avoid any more arriving without them. I have seen them both with and without guards panels during test runs. They are also being fitted with external air connections to avoid the use of sellotape for deliveries through the channel tunnel.

I have noticed that there haven’t been any test runs to Southport for quite a while. Does anyone know why this is the case?

 

[Ribbleman]

Given that we supposedly know that Merseytravel changed its mind after those 3 years of industrial action and being taken over by the mind and wallet of Steve Rotheram, why are we still not sure whether they are finished coming to an agreement with the RMT? There is no reason for them not to keep guards if they want them to enter service, so it would seem they have been ordered solely to look new while sitting in sidings. If they continue to insist on DOO, DCO or any method of operation not centred around a safety critical door operating role for the guard, they must simply have no intention of them entering service ever.


Units that have been delivered without them should be being fitted with them in this country, while units that haven’t are being fitted with them at the factory to avoid any more arriving without them. I have seen them both with and without guards panels during test runs. They are also being fitted with external air connections to avoid the use of sellotape for deliveries through the channel tunnel.

I have noticed that there haven’t been any test runs to Southport for quite a while. Does anyone know why this is the case?

I last saw a 777 out about two weeks ago. It could be that, other than the most recent delivery, all the sets have attained their required mileage figures. There are paths showing for runs next week.

 

[507020]

I last saw a 777 out about two weeks ago. It could be that, other than the most recent delivery, all the sets have attained their required mileage figures. There are paths showing for runs next week.

There are paths in the system every Monday - Friday which I believe are just left there as required. They often don’t run.

 

[urbophile]

He'll be there much longer. Liverpool is a Labour stronghold.

Don't take anything for granted. Check the recent by-election results for Warbreck ward. (Anyway the LDs ran the city council less than 20 years ago, and it was Tory-controlled in living memory.) The city region is arguably more mixed politically than the city.

 

[irish_rail]

Or just have them driver-controlled, as designed. It doesn't mean you have to get rid of the second member of staff. It does speed up door operation, which is important on a metro service such as Merseyrail.

But crucially it is less safe. And what driver wants to take responsibility for another James St style death due to pissed up party goers etc? Sending one of their merseyrail colleagues to prison really wasn't the best decision, and has helped make driver controlled operation about as appealing as diphtheria.
Driver opening and guard closing on the other hand is a much better way of operating (quick and safer).

 

[dvfmlfc]

The new units should be in some form of operation for the time Headbolt Lane opens in spring 2023, seeing as the line from Kirkby isn't going to be electrified. Marvelllous!

 

[Bertie the bus]

All Spring 2023 means is some time in the future. It's a date and if/(probably) when it isn't met there will be another date.

 

[Pep and co]

Meanwhile the 507s and 508s provided a sterling service to get racegoers to/from Aintree over the past few days.

 

[wobman]

Or just have them driver-controlled, as designed. It doesn't mean you have to get rid of the second member of staff. It does speed up door operation, which is important on a metro service such as Merseyrail.

That ship seems to have sailed with merseyrail and the 777s, the guards are being retained for door operations thankfully.
We just need to look at the court cases over the years regarding door operation incidents on the merseyrail network, one ended up with a guard in prison the other ruined a guards career.

After these court cases no wonder there was industrial issues once DOO units were ordered on a network not suitable for DOO, aslef don't want there drivers in prison and the rmt want to retain there guards. We could all see these problems happening once Merseytravel ordered the 777s as DOO, I don't understand how higher management in Merseytravel couldn't forsee these problems!

 

[wobman]

But crucially it is less safe. And what driver wants to take responsibility for another James St style death due to pissed up party goers etc? Sending one of their merseyrail colleagues to prison really wasn't the best decision, and has helped make driver controlled operation about as appealing as diphtheria.
Driver opening and guard closing on the other hand is a much better way of operating (quick and safer).

Other tocs use this method and its proven to be far safer than DOO, I'm very much like you and can't understand how Merseytravel management didn't realise the issues with DOO after both high profile court cases involving door operation incidents.

 

[Skie]

I’m surprised someone hasn’t created a wireless door control system. Simple box with a few buttons for door control, PA and an NFC reader. Tap the box on the NFC tag on the set of doors you want to be local and the box just acts like a door panel.

Pop it back in the cab at the end of the turn to charge, or have them more like ticket handhelds and they stay with the guard until he books off. They could have a screen on them to view the body cameras, or the nearest saloon screen could do it automatically when the local door is activated.

 

[krus_aragon]

I’m surprised someone hasn’t created a wireless door control system. Simple box with a few buttons for door control, PA and an NFC reader. Tap the box on the NFC tag on the set of doors you want to be local and the box just acts like a door panel.

Pop it back in the cab at the end of the turn to charge, or have them more like ticket handhelds and they stay with the guard until he books off. They could have a screen on them to view the body cameras, or the nearest saloon screen could do it automatically when the local door is activated.

Going wireless, and through the world of radio interference, range issues, security, etc, opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to safety accreditation and the like. Having a hard-mounted box is often the lesser inconvenience.

(Guards pressing buttons while standing in radio dead-spots would be fun. And the joy of car key cloning could come to a railway near you... Current physical controls aren't perfect security-wise, but at least you can see someone stood at the control box.)

 

[Skie]

Going wireless, and through the world of radio interference, range issues, security, etc, opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to safety accreditation and the like. Having a hard-mounted box is often the lesser inconvenience.

(Guards pressing buttons while standing in radio dead-spots would be fun. And the joy of car key cloning could come to a railway near you... Current physical controls aren't perfect security-wise, but at least you can see someone stood at the control box.)

All solvable though. The 777s themselves have onboard Wi-Fi and a network for secure comms (cctv, pa, diagnostics) as well as the passenger side. Interference wouldn’t be an issue given the box would be paired and communicating with the train itself, which the guard would be standing inside.

Proving it all works and is secure is the only major challenge, but it’s not an insurmountable hurdle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Almost might as well make it secure audio comms and the driver presses the actual button. I think PKP IC's FLIRTs are operated like that.

 

[wobman]

All solvable though. The 777s themselves have onboard Wi-Fi and a network for secure comms (cctv, pa, diagnostics) as well as the passenger side. Interference wouldn’t be an issue given the box would be paired and communicating with the train itself, which the guard would be standing inside.

Proving it all works and is secure is the only major challenge, but it’s not an insurmountable hurdle.

A Secure network is essential, imagine if was hacked or lost signal due to its wireless status.