Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[507020]

Perhaps they should just remove the 3rd rail equipment. Convert them to OHL and send the 777s to a more appreciative customer waiting for some better, newer trains.

Meantime the Merseyrail older trains can soldier on till they fall apart. Till the unions enter the 21st century ethos.

Other than the shoes, this isn’t possible. The electrical equipment is purely DC input. Fitting transformers for AC OHL means sacrificing the battery capability unfortunately.

The 507/508s are bravely soldiering on well into their 5th decade of intensive service and BREL of the 1970s must be commended for manufacturing such a reliable piece of equipment. What exactly is this 21st century ethos?

I can totally understand the whole DOO issue. But that's sorted, isn't it, with the fitment of guard panels in progress?

The guards panels are physically being fitted but this in itself doesn’t do anything towards the unions agreeing a method of operation using said panels.

They must be so much nicer to drive than a rotting, uncrashworthy 40-odd year old rattletrap where the driver sits in a tiny little cupboard.

Yes they must, but that doesn’t seem to be the issue the unions are protesting about, although what is is beyond anyone who isn’t an expert on trade unionism. How much nicer to drive was a 507/508 compared to the previous 40 year old pre-war 502/503s and what did the unions have to say about them then?

I don't blame Aslef for being hostile. Their drivers are basically being downgraded from train drivers to tram drivers. God only knows why Merseyrail opted for what is essentially a tram rather than a decent metro train. I for one hope the 50x remain in service for a good while longer.

The 507/508s are likely to remain in service a good while longer, but what exactly is a 777 other than a decent metro train. They aren’t suitable at all from tram operations and don’t downgrade the service the same way the T68s did on the Bury and Altrincham lines.

What a load of nonsense. Stadler kit is excellent, they are not trams. The staff aren't being subjected to cheap, unreliable rubbish like CAFs, they're getting the highest quality, premium trains in the business, designed specifically for Merseyrail, and not at all on the cheap.

I have heard great things about the premium quality Stadler kit running up and down under very poor rail conditions in the latter part of the year, with virtually no wheel slip and even less effect on the timings. The cheap, unreliable rubbish CAF 195s on the CLC line however could barely put any power down onto the track and lost time.

The customers are Merseytravel and through them, the public who would rather like to be able to appreciate the trains that have been built for their use.

Yes, but if and when this is resolved, we will have many years to appreciate this premium quality Stadler kit which has been built for our use and the improvements they will bring including battery operation to unelectrified destinations including Headbolt Lane, Warrington Central, Wrexham, Helsby, Burscough, Preston and Skelmersdale. In the meantime, we are fortunately still able to appreciate the pinnacle of premium quality British suburban EMUs of the 1970s which were built for our use 40 years ago not bettered for over 20 years after they were built, so we must appreciate this feat of engineering because it won’t be around forever. We are also able to see our trains for future use being tested most days.

 

[jamesst]

Yeah sorry but there's a lot of complete rubbish been written on here.
Aslef have been involved from the start, have visited the units being built in the various locations and continue to be involved in cab conditions.
Lets not drop into the usual union bashing every thread on here ends up being.

 

[childwallblues]

Yeah sorry but there's a lot of complete rubbish been written on here.
Aslef have been involved from the start, have visited the units being built in the various locations and continue to be involved in cab conditions.
Lets not drop into the usual union bashing every thread on here ends up being.

The Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram has annonced that it is his intention to take over local bus services and create a London style bus system (at great cost to local ratepayers I assume). It is a great pity as a Labour politician that he cannot sort out the 777 issues between his organisation and the unions first before he embarks on another potential disaster for the region.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram has annonced that it is his intention to take over local bus services and create a London style bus system (at great cost to local ratepayers I assume).

Needs doing when like on Tuesday I arrived at LPY on the last train from Manchester, only to see the last bus of the evening already leaving as I got off the train. What a complete joke of a timetable.

 

[8A Rail]

Updated list of current locations in the light of arrival of 777013, 777015 and 777049 earlier today at Arpley Sidings.

20205 / 20189 and 20142 / 20007 took 777013 and 015 to Kirkdale C.S. (5Q20), then 777049 to Crewe C.S. (6X28) from Arpley Sidings this morning.

Kirkdale C.S. = 002, 003, 005, 007, 009, 013, 015 and 018.
Crewe C.S. = 001, 004, 006, 008, 010, 012, 014, 016 and 049.

 

[Pacef8]

So 49 did a double pass of crew then .

 

[stuu]

I don't blame Aslef for being hostile. Their drivers are basically being downgraded from train drivers to tram drivers. God only knows why Merseyrail opted for what is essentially a tram rather than a decent metro train. I for one hope the 50x remain in service for a good while longer.

Are you confusing them with what is being built for South Wales? The 777s look exactly like a metro train, and nothing like a tram

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you confusing them with what is being built for Son uth Wales? The 777s look exactly like a metro train, and nothing like a tram

I'd say they look like a regional train, to be honest. While they are on the Stadler METRO platform, they look very little like the related Berlin and Newcastle units, and much more like a FLIRT.

They very much look like a squashed SBB FLIRT painted a different colour, inside and out.

What they definitely aren't is a tram. Stadler has an entirely separate platform for those.

 

[507020]

I'd say they look like a regional train, to be honest. While they are on the Stadler METRO platform, they look very little like the related Berlin and Newcastle units, and much more like a FLIRT.

They very much look like a squashed SBB FLIRT painted a different colour, inside and out.

What they definitely aren't is a tram. Stadler has an entirely separate platform for those.

They look exactly like the Newcastle units and were designed by the same industrial designer. The only immediately noticeable difference is that those have a full width cab and not an end door.

 

[notadriver]

Yeah sorry but there's a lot of complete rubbish been written on here.
Aslef have been involved from the start, have visited the units being built in the various locations and continue to be involved in cab conditions.
Lets not drop into the usual union bashing every thread on here ends up being.

ASLEF would never have agreed to see through glass cabs that trams have.

 

[Techniquest]

Are people seriously suggesting these new trains will not be fit for purpose? Seriously? I've not examined a 777, mock-up or otherwise, yet but I did watch a video tour of the inside of one ages ago, they look incredible. I have a lot of respect for Stadler products, having enjoyed the 745s and 755s quite a bit so far. I seem to recall they had some MUs in use on certain lines in the Netherlands some years back when I did an InterRail. GTW comes to mind, and those trains were really good too.

The suggestion the 777s will feel more like a tram than a train, well that just seems like an attempt to stir people up. It does not recognise the level of care and design put into the new trains.

I think it was forum member 507020 who pointed out the 507s and 508s have been wonderfully designed, to last as long as they have in what is still pretty intensive use. After so many years, it is an impressive achievement. I suspect the 777s will do extremely well too, there is no doubt in my mind about that whatsoever.

Now we just need to be able to go and travel on them! At least we are all getting plenty of time to enjoy the old fleet before it goes, which is a huge plus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They look exactly like the Newcastle units and were designed by the same industrial designer. The only immediately noticeable difference is that those have a full width cab and not an end door.

The M on the front does, but the body shape is rather different and more LRV-like. The Merseyrail units are the same shape as the UK FLIRTs.

Who designed them isn't really that important, I don't doubt Stadler's designers work on all sorts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

ASLEF would never have agreed to see through glass cabs that trams have.

If that's the only issue, it's not exactly hard to fix it with sticky backed plastic like BR did on the originally see-through cab doors on Pacers, 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s etc. Probably fifteen minutes or so per unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

Are people seriously suggesting these new trains will not be fit for purpose? Seriously?

Yes, I find this suggestion quite bizarre. I suspect it's along the lines of "I hate Windows 11 because it doesn't quite look the same as Windows 10".

I think it was forum member 507020 who pointed out the 507s and 508s have been wonderfully designed, to last as long as they have in what is still pretty intensive use.

I think I'd separate their functionality from their industrial design. For passengers, they are pretty poor. In particular, the designer who specified a layout where not one single seat has an acceptable window view wants his* brain examining. But they are certainly robust, well-built and have lasted a very long time.

* It was the 1970s, it will have been a "he".

 

[notadriver]

If that's the only issue, it's not exactly hard to fix it with sticky backed plastic like BR did on the originally see-through cab doors on Pacers, 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s etc. Probably fifteen minutes or so per unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==


If they are ALLOWED to do that. Tram drivers are not for example.

 

[swt_passenger]

They look exactly like the Newcastle units and were designed by the same industrial designer. The only immediately noticeable difference is that those have a full width cab and not an end door.

Look like, yes, but a somewhat different size (width and height) both by previous accounts, and as seen in interior images

 

[Skie]

ASLEF would never have agreed to see through glass cabs that trams have.

Which is why they can be frosted on the 777s

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they are ALLOWED to do that. Tram drivers are not for example.

I'm not saying the drivers should vandalise the units, they absolutely should not. I'm saying if the drivers all say they don't like the feature, Merseyrail could stick pretty pictures over the top of it. It was only there for feelings of personal safety when operated DOO (which is why trams are like that), and they now won't be operated DOO so it's irrelevant.

 

[MattRat]

I personally don't understand the die hards in either camp about the looks. Sure, you don't want a train that makes people want to throw up looking at it, for obvious reasons, but, if it looks a little bit ugly to you, who cares?

I care about the inside experience, you know, what will make up the bulk of my journey. Is it easy to get on and off, is it easy to walk along the carriages to find a space, how easy is it to get a good window space, where's the space for my luggage/bike/wheelchair, how comfy it is, etc, etc. Note not once did I mention looks.

The opposite is also true. The 80x look amazing, but they are terrible to ride on, for example.

 

[92002]

I personally don't understand the die hards in either camp about the looks. Sure, you don't want a train that makes people want to throw up looking at it, for obvious reasons, but, if it looks a little bit ugly to you, who cares?

I care about the inside experience, you know, what will make up the bulk of my journey. Is it easy to get on and off, is it easy to walk along the carriages to find a space, how easy is it to get a good window space, where's the space for my luggage/bike/wheelchair, how comfy it is, etc, etc. Note not once did I mention looks.

The opposite is also true. The 80x look amazing, but they are terrible to ride on, for example.

 

[urbophile]

I've always thought the 507/508s look ugly. Certainly compared to their 502/503 predecessors. Now they are about to go I feel a kind of affection for them but it will (would?) be nice to have some sprightlier more metro-like trains soon.

 

[Statto]

Other than the shoes, this isn’t possible. The electrical equipment is purely DC input. Fitting transformers for AC OHL means sacrificing the battery capability unfortunately.

Not only that but the tunnels themselves ( & bridges ) are not suitable for AC OHL, take a look at when a train arrives in at one of the Merseyrail underground stations & they only just fit under the tunnel roof, it'll cost millions if not billions to upgrade the tunnels alone to AC OHL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fitting AC would be used to allow extension onto overhead electrified routes. There aren't any at the moment, but the CLC is one possibility once that is electrified (i.e. extending the Hunts Cross service to Warrington Central, with the local stops on the mainline being served by the Crewes), though battery could also be used.

 

[Skie]

Biggest positive of the 777s is air conditioning. With the exception of the cabs, the 507/508s are unbearable in the summer. It’s made somewhat worse when travelling from underground stations as you go from the cool chill of an underground station to a freshly arriving sauna. Only a crosswind can properly ventilate them.

Covid-19 had one benefit: it nixed the use of the saloon furnaces in winter. People arriving wrapped up in their winter woolies could keep them on and be comfortable for once!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Biggest positive of the 777s is air conditioning. With the exception of the cabs, the 507/508s are unbearable in the summer. It’s made somewhat worse when travelling from underground stations as you go from the cool chill of an underground station to a freshly arriving sauna. Only a crosswind can properly ventilate them.

They were fine until they fitted the window restrictors, but aircon will indeed be a big gain.

 

[507020]

I think it was forum member 507020 who pointed out the 507s and 508s have been wonderfully designed, to last as long as they have in what is still pretty intensive use. After so many years, it is an impressive achievement. I suspect the 777s will do extremely well too, there is no doubt in my mind about that whatsoever.

Now we just need to be able to go and travel on them! At least we are all getting plenty of time to enjoy the old fleet before it goes, which is a huge plus.

The 507/508s, despite not being bespoke to the lines they run on, proved themselves to be worthy successors to the previous LMS designed 502/503s which lasted as long in just as intensive service. The only thing that has reduced the intensity of the service at present is the covid timetable.

I suspect the 777s if they ever enter service will prove to be an equally good 4th generation of electric rolling stock for these lines, but I will not tolerate them being referred to as “better” than their predecessors because the era of their construction must be considered in that statement. I do suspect, however that we have ended up with a superior product than a number of other new train fleets being introduced, including Aventras, since their design and use effectively guarantees the railway will not be fully accessible for disabled people for at least 40 years, or that we would have ended up if they had been put to tender a few years earlier. We may have ended up with 717s, given that these were deemed suitable to replace the 313s that were cloned for Merseyrail in the first place.

The M on the front does, but the body shape is rather different and more LRV-like. The Merseyrail units are the same shape as the UK FLIRTs.

Who designed them isn't really that important, I don't doubt Stadler's designers work on all sorts.

Are the 777s the same shape as FLIRTs? The front end may be very different but David Powell has stated that he maximised the body profile to take advantage of the gauge of the Merseyrail lines. When I watched one go under the bridge at Waterloo yesterday it looked to be a perfect fit.

Yes, I find this suggestion quite bizarre. I suspect it's along the lines of "I hate Windows 11 because it doesn't quite look the same as Windows 10".

I recently bought a new computer which came with Windows 11 and therefore didn’t have a choice, but I find it is more similar to the previous version it replaced than any version since Windows 98 and it is possible to edit the registry to make it display interface elements from Windows 10, making it look exactly the same.

I think I'd separate their functionality from their industrial design. For passengers, they are pretty poor. In particular, the designer who specified a layout where not one single seat has an acceptable window view wants his* brain examining. But they are certainly robust, well-built and have lasted a very long time.

The design of the 1970s seat layout is totally irrelevant now though, because they have of course been comprehensively refurbished with new 2+2 seating and a bike space (although this began 20 years ago). I would suggest the designer of the 319 interior would be a better candidate to have his head examined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The design of the 1970s seat layout is totally irrelevant now though, because they have of course been comprehensively refurbished with new 2+2 seating and a bike space (although this began 20 years ago).

The seats are better, but it remains the case that there is not even one seat in the whole unit with an acceptable view. The presence of various pieces of equipment under the seats has (as it did with 150s) prevented the layout being substantially changed.

 

[Techniquest]

I wonder if you have assumed that I have suggested the 777s will be better than the 507s and 508s Or is this a general viewpoint aimed at no-one in particular?

For the modern era, I have to say that yes the 777s will be better. From what I remember seeing in the video mentioned in my previous post, and no I don't remember where I watched it now, improved accessibility, better cycle space and air conditioning will make them superior.

However, obviously it has to be said that the 507s and 508s are still incredibly good pieces of kit. I still like them, of that there can be no question, but I do think it's time for them to bow out gracefully and let the new generation continue their fine work.

 

[507020]

Look like, yes, but a somewhat different size (width and height) both by previous accounts, and as seen in interior images

They may have been specified for a historical NER loading gauge, rather than the mixture of L&Y, CLC, GWR, Mersey and Wirral Railways of Merseyrail.

I've always thought the 507/508s look ugly. Certainly compared to their 502/503 predecessors. Now they are about to go I feel a kind of affection for them but it will (would?) be nice to have some sprightlier more metro-like trains soon.

They may be ugly, but what can be said of them is that their front end design hasn’t dated at all, unlike some of the Mk3 units.

Not only that but the tunnels themselves ( & bridges ) are not suitable for AC OHL, take a look at when a train arrives in at one of the Merseyrail underground stations & they only just fit under the tunnel roof, it'll cost millions if not billions to upgrade the tunnels alone to AC OHL.

There is very little outside the tunnels that would prevent the installation of AC OHL (one thing that would being the bridge at Waterloo that I just mentioned) but the tunnel section could easily be enlarged to accommodate OHL and even an evacuation walkway if it was decided to quadruple the route at the same time.

Fitting AC would be used to allow extension onto overhead electrified routes. There aren't any at the moment, but the CLC is one possibility once that is electrified (i.e. extending the Hunts Cross service to Warrington Central, with the local stops on the mainline being served by the Crewes), though battery could also be used.

The immediate AC capability of the trains is nothing to do with converting the existing lines to AC, which has not been proposed, while extension of overhead wires from Lime Street and Allerton Junction onto the CLC line has, as has extension of Merseyrail services to Warrington which will likely necessitate AC operation of the 777s.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the 3rd rail was abandoned to Hunts Cross and the power changeover was done at Liverpool South Parkway, to avoid having any dual electrified track beyond there. AC operation would also be significantly cheaper than battery, even without suggestions I have heard that Network Rail or it’s successor should charge higher track access fees to operators who choose to run Diesel or battery on electrified lines, without making use of the infrastructure available to them.

Biggest positive of the 777s is air conditioning. With the exception of the cabs, the 507/508s are unbearable in the summer. It’s made somewhat worse when travelling from underground stations as you go from the cool chill of an underground station to a freshly arriving sauna. Only a crosswind can properly ventilate them.

Covid-19 had one benefit: it nixed the use of the saloon furnaces in winter. People arriving wrapped up in their winter woolies could keep them on and be comfortable for once!

When I have been on a 777 in Winter, I have noticed that the ambient temperature inside was still much, much too hot, although this could easily be set lower. That’s what happens when you have no passenger feedback.

I wonder if you have assumed that I have suggested the 777s will be better than the 507s and 508s Or is this a general viewpoint aimed at no-one in particular?

For the modern era, I have to say that yes the 777s will be better. From what I remember seeing in the video mentioned in my previous post, and no I don't remember where I watched it now, improved accessibility, better cycle space and air conditioning will make them superior.

However, obviously it has to be said that the 507s and 508s are still incredibly good pieces of kit. I still like them, of that there can be no question, but I do think it's time for them to bow out gracefully and let the new generation continue their fine work.

I have not assumed that of you, but I have heard many others claim that the 777s are simply better with no understanding of the implications of such a claim, so it is a general remark.

The experience on board a 777 is likely to be better for the modern era, which is a completely different thing. The testament to the 507/508s is their continued reliability while they are unable to bow out with no 777s ready to take over, however I have no desire for the 777s to simply continue the work of their predecessors (something not done by the 507/508s which did not continue the Crossens or Meols Cop service) but to provide new and extended routes including Southport to Ormskirk and Preston using their battery capability.

 

[Taunton]

The 507/508s, despite not being bespoke to the lines they run on, proved themselves to be worthy successors to the previous LMS designed 502/503s which lasted as long in just as intensive service.

I knew the old trains from back at the time of the last changeover, and indeed before. The general feeling on The Wirral was the new ones were not as good for passengers, and to tell you the truth the new ones now coming along don't seem to equal them either. I'll defer comparison of the physical seats until I have sat in one.

But for reliability the 507/508s were a notable dropoff, with cancellations and delays like had never (ever, for me) happened previously - something I've written about here before. Bear in mind that's a comparison of 40-year old trains with new ones as well.

 

[Techniquest]

That's what I was thinking, but wanted to be sure Thanks for the clarification.

Yes I agree, the expanded operations with the new fleet is definitely something to look forward to. Whether or not there will be pantographs etc fitted eventually, who knows? Absolutely no point trying to work that out now, the whole world could change again for all we know!

 

[D821]

Slightly off topic, I guess, but what happened to the mock up of the 777 that was built for public viewing?
I saw it and was quite impressed (saw the guys building it, too). None of the staff I spoke to seem to know what was happening with it afterwards.