Transpennine Industrial Relations

[Solent&Wessex]

Driver and guard were only due to take train half-way (e.g to Leeds) to take over another service and there’s no traincrew available to take their train from the halfway point and it can’t be left abandoned taking up platform space

Only a driver and/or guard to work it one way and units would be left out of place

This is generally the reason. TPE does have an annoying habit of changing crews frequently during the journey, which means a train from say Manchester Airport to Redcar might have 3 or 4 different drivers during the course of the journey. If just one of those is missing then the whole train will get cancelled as otherwise it would get as far as it can then just sit abandoned at Man Victoria / Leeds / York blocking a platform and causing congestion for other services.

 

[O L Leigh]

There is some irony in that Aslef's withdrawal of rest day working is increasing the problem they say they are trying to avoid - messrooms which used to be quiet are now chock-a-block with drivers and guards sitting around because the trains they should be working on are cancelled.

I'm still not sure we are all fully understanding exactly what spare drivers are for and how they are utilised.

If an operator has taken the step to cut back the service as a consequence of staffing issues, you can be sure that as many drivers as possible have been allocated work. Therefore you won't have messrooms chock-a-block with traincrew sitting around. If the messrooms really are as busy as you suggest then you have to wonder why is it the TOC isn't running more services.

And the same point also suggests Aslef is wrong too.

They are assuming that by returning to normal working and getting rid of spare at home then suddenly mess rooms will be full of drivers sat around spare spreading covid to each other.

This would almost certainly not be the case - pre-covid the amount of spare people sitting around who hadn't actually been allocated work was so small it wasn't worth worrying about. It is even less likely now, so I simply don't believe there would be any pressure on mess room capacity at all.

I'm not sure that is what ASLEF are saying. My own reading of what has been coming down the chain where I work is that these are infection control measures by controlling the numbers of staff gathering and mixing in the workplace.

But yes, at this particular moment in time when spare staff are a rarity (well, except at Norwich it would seem ) the risks are currently low.

I don't know the situation at TPE, but it's worth remembering that not all TOCs have service recovery/standby/cover turns - some just have spare, which are used for everything whether they're planned in advance or covering a shift on the day. In these cases the spare crews *are* the service recovery.

We never had standby turns until the pandemic started. They were only instated as a consequence of spares being at home.

What, if not staffing, do you think is the cause of TPE's travails?

I would invite you to review the thread as you will find the information you seek already contained.

 

[Fokx]

On a point of order, the Selby Swing Bridge has been very reliable since it got refurbished a few years ago. I believe it is Keadby bridge which is quite unreliable. The issue on the Hull route is regular level crossing failures, which have never worked properly since they were modernised a couple of years.

I have to disagree with you there, there was a point mid-summer this year where Selby swing bridge kept failing in the open position.

I personally had 3 trains run as far as Micklefield Jn before setting back to Leeds within a two week period. Two of which being the busy 1634 departure from Leeds in the same week, and I’m aware of atleast a handful more in the same period, including one where I was almost stuck in Hull with the train because of the bridge. (It seems to be reliable lately however!)

 

[Starmill]

still not sure we are all fully understanding exactly what spare drivers are for and how they are utilised.

I think that's very clearly because they're for different things and used in different ways across the industry to how they are used in your own depot. Which is no doubt why you've found this so confusing.

 

[Efini92]

I think that's very clearly because they're for different things and used in different ways across the industry to how they are used in your own depot. Which is no doubt why you've found this so confusing.

How does spare work at your depot? From my experience it’s pretty much the same everywhere.

 

[O L Leigh]

I think that's very clearly because they're for different things and used in different ways across the industry to how they are used in your own depot. Which is no doubt why you've found this so confusing.

I’m not confused in the slightest.

The procedures for the rostering and use of spare coverage has been most recently, and most ably, described by @Tomnick in post #225. This is the same system used where I work now, where I worked previously and at depots and TOCs up and down the country.

 

[Starmill]

I’m not confused in the slightest.

Fair enough then.

 

[the sniper]

How does spare work at your depot? From my experience it’s pretty much the same everywhere.

I'd be interested to learn that too, for the avoidance of any confusion...

 

[dk1]

The thing that often causes confusion is 'spare' & 'standby' which are both very different when it comes to rostering.

 

[muz379]

The thing that often causes confusion is 'spare' & 'standby' which are both very different when it comes to rostering.

Exactly , I know it's already been covered but Spares are built into the roster for covering normal absence through annual leave , a degree of sickness , training/briefs , release for staff reps , release for hospital appointments , medicals , people off the job due assessment or incidents etc . Spares have a degree of flexibility built in by way of movement of hours subject to whatever the agreements are . 2/3 hours and extended turn length is fairly standard though. Spares aren't just for traincrew , controllers , station staff, and many other grades rosters will also have them built in .

Standby when used is just to cover work on the day at short notice like owing to someone coming in late , having an incident or booking sick on duty or an ad hoc move or shunt at controls request.

RDW agreements should really only be for when you have a big training need like introducing new routes or traction to a whole depot or some other.

 

[fabs]

RDW agreements should really only be for when you have a big training need like introducing new routes or traction to a whole depot or some other.

FWIW I agree with you on that point.
But that cannot the policy of ASLEF when they have (had) written into the TPE RDW agreement that within certain timescales RD worker is to be used ahead of spare cover and additional daily leave can be granted depending on RD availability. I can't see management 'offering' those types terms up off their own back.
Its either an agreement to allow training or like the TPE one was an agreement that mutually benefits staff and the company (albeit an expensive one).

 

[whoosh]

But as you well know, RDW was going to be pulled before Omicron Indeed TPE was clearly among the most problematic judging by the number of cancelled services prior to the termination of the rest day working agreement.

Pulled? As in cancelled or withdrawn? Torn up?

We're going around in circles.

Let me get this straight. You are blaming the cancellations on TPE prior to the expiry of the RDW agreement solely on TPE's utilisation of spare and standby coverage...?

Or expired? Came to an end? Not renewed?

On a point of order, the Selby Swing Bridge has been very reliable since it got refurbished a few years ago. I believe it is Keadby bridge which is quite unreliable. The issue on the Hull route is regular level crossing failures, which have never worked properly since they were modernised a couple of years ago.


However, back to the topic at hand:

There is some irony in that Aslef's withdrawal of rest day working is increasing the problem they say they are trying to avoid - messrooms which used to be quiet are now chock-a-block with drivers and guards sitting around because the trains they should be working on are cancelled.

And the same point also suggests Aslef is wrong too.

They are assuming that by returning to normal working and getting rid of spare at home then suddenly mess rooms will be full of drivers sat around spare spreading covid to each other.

This would almost certainly not be the case - pre-covid the amount of spare people sitting around who hadn't actually been allocated work was so small it wasn't worth worrying about. It is even less likely now, so I simply don't believe there would be any pressure on mess room capacity at all.

Quite a few here saying it's withdrawn, but I think expired/not renewed is more likely.
Is the Spare On Call at Home disagreement the only thing halting a renewal, or is there a list containing other issues as well?

 

[fabs]

Quite a few here saying it's withdrawn, but I think expired/not renewed is more likely.
Is the Spare On Call at Home disagreement the only thing halting a renewal, or is there a list containing other issues as well?

The TPE Rest Day agreement was ended early by ASLEF. I believe its natural expiry date was 23rd December.

 

[Efini92]

Pulled? As in cancelled or withdrawn? Torn up?

Or expired? Came to an end? Not renewed?




Quite a few here saying it's withdrawn, but I think expired/not renewed is more likely.
Is the Spare On Call at Home disagreement the only thing halting a renewal, or is there a list containing other issues as well?

Rest day working has been withdrawn by ASLEF not renewing the agreement.

 

[fabs]

Rest day working has been withdrawn by ASLEF not renewing the agreement.

It wasn't 'not renewed', it was pulled before it expired. It may sound pedantic but I honestly believe that is an important difference. The agreement was basically 'ripped up' it was not simply 'allowed to expire' at its expiry date.

 

[Hugo3000]

I'd be interested to learn that too, for the avoidance of any confusion...

I'm not a fan of confusion either. I'm sure we'll get an answer imminently...

 

[O L Leigh]

But that cannot the policy of ASLEF when they have (had) written into the TPE RDW agreement that within certain timescales RD worker is to be used ahead of spare cover and additional daily leave can be granted depending on RD availability. I can't see management 'offering' those types terms up off their own back.

It's a bit unusual for rest day volunteers to be rostered ahead of the spares, so I can only assume that there was a specific set of circumstances where this would have applied (e.g. an agreement that a certain proportion of drivers remain spare on the day or issues relating to route and/or traction knowledge). However, granting rest day working to permit others to take leave is a fairly standard practice. Leave applications outside of the daily quota are normally only declined once all alternatives for providing cover have been exhausted.

 

[Moonshot]

Rest day working is very popular amongst drivers because of the amount of money that can be earned. £100k a year salaries based on that fact are increasingly common. Less so amongst the guards grade however who don't get any near the uplift in overtime rate. A bone of contention if ever there was one. TPE guards are being balloted. This is going to be an issue right through the industry.

 

[wobman]

Rest day working is very popular amongst drivers because of the amount of money that can be earned. £100k a year salaries based on that fact are increasingly common. Less so amongst the guards grade however who don't get any near the uplift in overtime rate. A bone of contention if ever there was one. TPE guards are being balloted. This is going to be an issue right through the industry.

Can you show me a payslip of a tpe driver earning £100k a year please? Thanks

 

[Meerkat]

Less so amongst the guards grade however who don't get any near the uplift in overtime rate. A bone of contention if ever there was one. TPE guards are being balloted. This is going to be an issue right through the industry.

Balloted about the overtime rates? In the present circumstances I would have thought the Dft would be looking to level down not up!
Of course there is also the risk that overtime gets too expensive and they suddenly switch to preferring to employ more guards and the guards actually get less overtime money - easier to recruit and train guards than drivers.

 

[ComUtoR]

Of course there is also the risk that overtime gets too expensive and they suddenly switch to preferring to employ more guards...

I'll happily give you a million quid if this ever happens. TOCs prefer overtime to increasing establishments. Overtime is NEVER going away so needs to be dealt with. Incentives through pay work and is well established across many many industries. It can be reduced and that should always be the end goal. Getting the TOCs to increase establishments is a huge mountain to climb.

 

[Moonshot]

Can you show me a payslip of a tpe driver earning £100k a year please? Thanks

I never mentioned a TPE driver......I simply said that there have been instances where drivers can get to £100k through RDW. Oddly enough one of them did show his payslips on the pensions Facebook group a while ago showing the effect of increased BRASS payments on his tax. Also a while back, some of the driver instructors at our depot managed to rack up unreal amounts per 4 week period simply to get through a huge amount of training.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

Balloted about the overtime rates? In the present circumstances I would have thought the Dft would be looking to level down not up!
Of course there is also the risk that overtime gets too expensive and they suddenly switch to preferring to employ more guards and the guards actually get less overtime money - easier to recruit and train guards than drivers.

As I understand it, that is one of the items they are being balloted on. Didn't this particular issue also appear at ScotRail ?

 

[O L Leigh]

I'll happily give you a million quid if this ever happens. TOCs prefer overtime to increasing establishments. Overtime is NEVER going away so needs to be dealt with. Incentives through pay work and is well established across many many industries. It can be reduced and that should always be the end goal. Getting the TOCs to increase establishments is a huge mountain to climb.

Agreed.

Further up-thread the issue of staffing flexibility was hinted at, with the idea being that adequate spare coverage is expensive. Well, it is from overtime working that the flexibility comes. Unlike spares, staff on overtime only work when there is a need for them. If the need disappears then nobody works overtime.

The problem is that overtime is voluntary and there is no guarantee that there will be adequate numbers of volunteers to ensure that all the work gets covered. Consequently there is a balance to be struck between having adequate depot establishments (numbers of staff at each location) and overtime. Most depot establishment calculations set the proportion of spare coverage based on the number of diagrams at that depot.

A TOC may be happy to allow depot establishments to dip on the basis that they can save a few quid not having to employ so many drivers, but the flipside to that is that they become very dependent on the goodwill of their staff. If that goodwill disappears then the company suddenly has trouble covering all it's services. The usual response to this is a recruitment drive to bring depots back up to establishment again, thereby diluting the impact of overtime working.

 

[Moonshot]

I'll happily give you a million quid if this ever happens. TOCs prefer overtime to increasing establishments. Overtime is NEVER going away so needs to be dealt with. Incentives through pay work and is well established across many many industries. It can be reduced and that should always be the end goal. Getting the TOCs to increase establishments is a huge mountain to climb.

When you compare the overtime paid with how much it costs to cancel a train because of a staff shortage ( for whatever reason ), it's more economical to pay existing staff the overtime

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

Agreed.

Further up-thread the issue of staffing flexibility was hinted at, with the idea being that adequate spare coverage is expensive. Well, it is from overtime working that the flexibility comes. Unlike spares, staff on overtime only work when there is a need for them. If the need disappears then nobody works overtime.

The problem is that overtime is voluntary and there is no guarantee that there will be adequate numbers of volunteers to ensure that all the work gets covered. Consequently there is a balance to be struck between having adequate depot establishments (numbers of staff at each location) and overtime. Most depot establishment calculations set the proportion of spare coverage based on the number of diagrams at that depot.

A TOC may be happy to allow depot establishments to dip on the basis that they can save a few quid not having to employ so many drivers, but the flipside to that is that they become very dependent on the goodwill of their staff. If that goodwill disappears then the company suddenly has trouble covering all it's services. The usual response to this is a recruitment drive to bring depots back up to establishment again, thereby diluting the impact of overtime working.

Again spot on.....you do talk some sense on here.

 

[O L Leigh]

Again spot on.....you do talk some sense on here.

Thank you. May I show your comment to my other half...?

 

[Moonshot]

Thank you. May I show your comment to my other half...?

If it brings peace then yes

 

[wobman]

Balloted about the overtime rates? In the present circumstances I would have thought the Dft would be looking to level down not up!
Of course there is also the risk that overtime gets too expensive and they suddenly switch to preferring to employ more guards and the guards actually get less overtime money - easier to recruit and train guards than drivers.

I never mentioned a TPE driver......I simply said that there have been instances where drivers can get to £100k through RDW. Oddly enough one of them did show his payslips on the pensions Facebook group a while ago showing the effect of increased BRASS payments on his tax. Also a while back, some of the driver instructors at our depot managed to rack up unreal amounts per 4 week period simply to get through a huge amount of training.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==


As I understand it, that is one of the items they are being balloted on. Didn't this particular issue also appear at ScotRail ?

Was it a toc or foc driver ? The topic of the posts is TPE traincrew so wouldn't it be appropriate to think it was a TPE driver ? Also it would be good to see the evidence otherwise its just speculation, as that's some serious overtime if its a toc driver especially with hidden restrictions. I'm just intrigued how's that happened, I've never known anybody get close to them kind of figures.

 

[wobman]

Agreed.

Further up-thread the issue of staffing flexibility was hinted at, with the idea being that adequate spare coverage is expensive. Well, it is from overtime working that the flexibility comes. Unlike spares, staff on overtime only work when there is a need for them. If the need disappears then nobody works overtime.

The problem is that overtime is voluntary and there is no guarantee that there will be adequate numbers of volunteers to ensure that all the work gets covered. Consequently there is a balance to be struck between having adequate depot establishments (numbers of staff at each location) and overtime. Most depot establishment calculations set the proportion of spare coverage based on the number of diagrams at that depot.

A TOC may be happy to allow depot establishments to dip on the basis that they can save a few quid not having to employ so many drivers, but the flipside to that is that they become very dependent on the goodwill of their staff. If that goodwill disappears then the company suddenly has trouble covering all it's services. The usual response to this is a recruitment drive to bring depots back up to establishment again, thereby diluting the impact of overtime working.

That's a clear and accurate description of how tocs run traincrew establishments and like to save money.
It's exactly how all the tocs I know run there depots.

 

[Moonshot]

That's a clear and accurate description of how tocs run traincrew establishments and like to save money.
It's exactly how all the tocs I know run there depots.

The only thing to add to that is sometimes a situation occurs where a driver with a full route card decides to give his or her notice in. That then creates a vacancy for a trainee. At our depot, it can take 5 years to get a full route card, so clearly there are going to be gaps to fill in the roster once the trainee passes out of training.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'll happily give you a million quid if this ever happens.

I’ll take that bet. You better start saving, and don’t bank on too much RDW!