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Transpennine Industrial Relations
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VauxhallNova
Member
Has this happened at other timetable changes?
Conductor grade balloting for Strike due to company refusing to provide RDW payments to Conductor grade, but simultaneously paying Driver grade the equivalent of a Conductors weekly wage to work one RD shift, but this has now stopped. (Amongst other issues)
Rostering arrangement is due to end on the new timetable which will see the end to spare from home working, and is the main reason for ASLEF taking industrial action short of strike. Drivers have been asked not to work rest days until the company agrees to greater safety measures in line with government guidance to ‘work from home if you can’ to reduce the physical number of staff sat waiting spare in socially distanced messrooms
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Wow that’s a good RDW payment for drivers
TPE website says "Due to a lack of available staff, services across our network over the coming days may be subject to delays and short-notice cancellations." Seems that TPE is not taking trains out of the timetable as XC have done.
Meridian richard
Member
Afternoon all,
Has anyone got any ideas on the dispute at TransPennine?
I received a message from them earlier stating they’re unable to sell advance tickets due to ongoing traincrew industrial relations. This has also caused a shortfall in crew?
Has anyone got any ideas on the dispute at TransPennine?
I received a message from them earlier stating they’re unable to sell advance tickets due to ongoing traincrew industrial relations. This has also caused a shortfall in crew?
High Dyke
Established Member
RMT circular refers to this:
Isn't that the same issue Avanti were having with it as well? Some TOCs pay a very minimal payment (2p / ticket or something like that) for each e/m-ticket scanned.
To me personally I don't know why guards should be paid extra for essentially doing their job (just evolving as tickets have evolved...), but some TOCs do pay so its obviously not consistent across the board. Perhaps there is less scope for commission these days with more "buy before you board" policies?
That Northern conductors get 2p per scan. And they want that too (well, probably more!).
To clarify, ASLEF (i.e. drivers) have pulled the rest day working (RDW) agremeent. Hence the massive number of P-coded trains ("pre-cancelled" a couple of days in advance) and disrupted services on the day.
The Covid measures I'm presuming you refer to, and the stated reason for not continuing to sanction RDW, is that drivers are no longer 'spare from home'.
I figured it help make up for lost commission seeing as passengers are much less likely to be buying onboard? Plus since it was introduced on Northern the conductors are a hell of a lot keener to scan tickets and smartcards. They used to just do visual checks (which is of course frankly hilarious for a smart card as, er, you can't tell anything from just looking at it!) quite regularly around my neck of the woods but only started actually scanning the tickets once that payment came in. Win win surely?
Well I suppose its "win-win" but there is some additional cost to the operator for a payment that didn't exist previously. Lots and lots of 2ps add up!
The reason for that was that they were provided with no equipment to check smartcards, so the only thing you could do was a visual check...
So does the commission they used to take when they were one of the primary sources of ticket sales!!
Could be wrong but I'm fairly certain that they did gain the ability to check smartcards at some stage pre-pandemic but before the current 2p a scan rule launched.
Smart ticket checking only became a thing when revenue was reintroduced during the pandemic as new revenue machines were brought in then - I think there was a slight gap between that starting and the 2p payments but there was no official way to check smartcards pre-pandemic.
I stand corrected!
swt_passenger
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Is this the same dispute as this thread, which I remembered but was unusually found in the timetables sub-forum?
Rest-day working on TPE, anyone heard anything?
"Oh no, not another one." New timetable starts on Sunday and I've read on Facebook a suggestion that there could be disruption due to withdrawal of rest day working. Can anyone confirm whether or not this is true?
www.railforums.co.uk
It’s a productivity despute.
Basically, Imagine you are a proactive guard, and on top of your normal duties you are checking and scanning tickets at every single station, for every single passenger, reducing the number of refunded e-tickets through apps like Trainline, correcting incorrect tickets, assisting passengers with advice regarding their tickets, helping passengers with issues such as train to long for platform etc.
You currently earn the same as a guard who doesn’t take a ticket machine and hides in the cab, never to be seen. There is no motivation (or financial benefit) for the conductor to be productive in terms of revenue, a conductor who scans no tickets all day is paid the same as one who scans 500.
I will add the current issues are not in regards to the above, and are mainly currently down to an increase in services with drivers pulling RDW. Conductor are currently balloting for both pulling RDW and full strike which won’t make the situation any easier.
I can appreciate that - just a shame this isn't resolved by more proactive management to ensure TMs/guards are doing their jobs effectively by on-board checks and assessments - this might be cheaper too. Some people I suppose have an internal motivation to just do good work and can't stand being idle but I totally understand how grating it can be when you're all doing the same job but some aren't doing "the job".
Just to clarify, RD working agreements aren't just 'pulled', the agreements run for a specified time and when there's a dispute the agreement isn't renewed.
Although if the rumours are true, it's the DfT that are preventing TOCs from renewing RDW agreements, to save money.
Although if the rumours are true, it's the DfT that are preventing TOCs from renewing RDW agreements, to save money.
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If the rumours are to be believed, it's the DfT that are preventing TOCs from renewing RDW agreements, all to save money.
It's your job. I believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, so I scan tickets without union agreement and I've made it very plain to anyone who asks that I don't give a stuff what they make of of and this seems to have been accepted.
The answer is for the management to grow some stones and smack the lazy guards with some disciplinary action, I've known it happen (to a good friend who by his own admission had lost his mojo for the job) and the changes in attitude it provokes are stunning.
Revenue duties are part of a guard's normal duties, and have been ever since the Paytrain concept came in. It's concerning if guards see performing part of their job description as being "on top of" their normal duties.
The only one of those which is a modern development is checking tickets with an electronic scanner. Though even there, stamping (or otherwise marking) tickets has always been part of ticket checking historically, and this is simply the modern day version of that.
A guard who hides in the cab without legitimate reason should go through the disciplinary procedure, because they would be failing or refusing to perform their job in accordance with their job description.
If the suggestion is that this is not happening, and that 'sleeping dogs' are simply being allowed to lie, I am surprised if people aren't challenging the company on this.
Though of course it's far easier for everyone to go into dispute with the company for not paying 'commission', than to encourage the company to drag 'certain' colleagues over the coals.
Technically yes, but the de facto position is that RDW is sanctioned unless there's a dispute.
The dispute isn’t about the act of checking tickets, it’s regarding productivity and the arguement that ‘scanning tickets’ doesn’t fall under the section in the Conductor grade T&C’s regarding new technology.
TPE are claiming it does fall under this whereas the union are claiming it doesn’t, as it’s a completely different and new MOW. In the unions favour the company have previously tried to introduce payments for this under a productivity deal, which was rejected by ballot (just to point out this ballot result for this was not rejected for payment of scanning tickets but for other elements regarding the conductor working week).
Again I’d like to point out here that this is NOT affecting the current service levels, this is a RDW dispute.
I don’t agree nor disagree with this, However there are many different factors which can also lead to this.
I have (out-of character) not carried full revenue duties for the last three shifts for various reasons out of my control including short-staffing at the cash office and taking a machine that didn’t charge correctly, dying within the first five minutes of my train.
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It wasn’t to do with drivers dispute, but staff shortage. There was no colleague within the entire building trained for the event of an evacuation, a legal H+S requirement.
I'm well aware - but I'd say the union is splitting hairs as to whether this is a new technology or not. In 'ye olden days', conductors would use a clipping machine to take out a "bite" of the ticket, like this.
Did they get a payrise when they started using Zifa stampers which could now mark the train's headcode/RSID? I hardly think so. I really struggle to see what is so different about using a phone and scanner.
Obstructionist attitudes have no place on the railway.
Absolutely, those things do happen from time to time. But that is not what this is about - you referred to people who simply hid in the back cab. And even if you don't have working revenue equipment, you can still provide reassurance and assistance to passengers by walking through the train.
The thing is scanning tickets can save TOCs a great deal in fraudulent claims . That they've introduced digital tickets without consulting staff means they kinda are now beholden to staff scanning them to close the loop on that . I think the reps would be doing their members a disservice if they didn't try and capitalise on that . Particularly at a time when their members haven't seen a payrise for 2 years .
As for using discipline procedures on lazy guards who don't walk through as much as they should . It's not necessarily as easy as the commentators on here think . It would he incredibly labour intensive to build up enough evidence for a disciplinary case . You would afterall you have to prove that it is a regular and consistent behaviour which would involve weeks of evidence gathering on that guards trains .
I imagine it's probably more cost effective to offer a small incentive than spend all this time and repeatedly rehire and retrain safety critical staff .
As for using discipline procedures on lazy guards who don't walk through as much as they should . It's not necessarily as easy as the commentators on here think . It would he incredibly labour intensive to build up enough evidence for a disciplinary case . You would afterall you have to prove that it is a regular and consistent behaviour which would involve weeks of evidence gathering on that guards trains .
I imagine it's probably more cost effective to offer a small incentive than spend all this time and repeatedly rehire and retrain safety critical staff .
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