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Transpennine Industrial Relations

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O L Leigh

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Spares are a good thing. You don't need to convince me of that. Unfortunately I'm not the one paying.

Indeed. And "they" will need to decide what sort of railway they want to operate. If they are serious about making the network a success as part of the decarbonisation initiative and driving up revenue then they need to make it attractive to users. Having poor reliability due to staffing issues is not a good selling point.
 
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Fokx

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Yes, the fact that they want spares on site and not at home!

That is not in anyway proof that cancellations have been caused by traincrew issues

Spare from home was removed due to relaxations in government guidance (at the time), nothing more.
 

dk1

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I was always under the impression that spare at home was only a lockdown thing. Since everything relaxed it’s back to normal and has been for a months & months at my depot. It’s only when social distancing is in place the messrooms needed to be cleared.
 

O L Leigh

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I was always under the impression that spare at home was only a lockdown thing. Since everything relaxed it’s back to normal and has been for a months & months at my depot. It’s only when social distancing is in place the messrooms needed to be cleared.

Well I haven't been spare for so long that the last time was probably during lockdown.
 

Starmill

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I was always under the impression that spare at home was only a lockdown thing. Since everything relaxed it’s back to normal and has been for a months & months at my depot. It’s only when social distancing is in place the messrooms needed to be cleared.
It's funny isn't it. It reminds me of the traction training and the new trainees. Some depots conducted them so well it's like you can hardly tell there was any pandemic disruption. Others basically stopped and nobody did anything about it whatsoever for months on end. Funny old world.
 

Fokx

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Well I haven't been spare for so long that the last time was probably during lockdown.
In the entirety of 2021 I had a total 5 ‘spare from home shifts’ of which 2 became part jobs, and 3 remained spare.

The remainder all became full duties with overtime within a few days notice
 

dk1

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It's funny isn't it. It reminds me of the traction training and the new trainees. Some depots conducted them so well it's like you can hardly tell there was any pandemic disruption. Others basically stopped and nobody did anything about it whatsoever for months on end. Funny old world.
Very much so. Crazy it’s so different.
 

O L Leigh

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Yes, the fact that they want spares on site and not at home!

I've said several times before that moving away from 'spare at home' will only make a small improvement in the grand scheme of things.

These appear to be contradictory. Either it makes a difference or it doesn't.

(I'll let you into the answer. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever. TPE's travails have, as has been explained, got nothing to do with staffing.)
 

Starmill

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These appear to be contradictory. Either it makes a difference or it doesn't.

(I'll let you into the answer. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever. TPE's travails have, as has been explained, got nothing to do with staffing.)
It's not even remotely contradictory. It's simply that ensuring that you're maximising value from spares is a much easier thing to implement than changing job roles for train crew or harmonising contract terms. They've got to start somewhere. Or they would have done if it weren't for Omicron.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

TPE management were so happy with how Spare at Home had gone in terms of low number of cancellations that they wanted to extend it beyond this December, so that's not true at all!
To be fair to them they may still be very happy with it because it can make things easier for staff. But it's also not their own money and they're required to act.
 

O L Leigh

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Wow!! We have loads of it.

I'm not coming back!! <D

Well we've been seriously below complement for some considerable time now (pre-Covid), so there's rather a lot of work to be covered.

It's simply that ensuring that you're maximising value from spares is a much easier thing to implement than changing job roles for train crew or harmonising contract terms. They've got to start somewhere.

It's not going to be easier to implement. To get maximum value you would need to ensure that you have just enough cover and not too much, and to achieve that you would need to crack the riddle of how you can roster spare coverage based on a need that is largely unknown. Certain things can be foreseen (e.g. annual leave, training, etc) but not all requirements can be (e.g. sickness, suspension from driving duties, on-the-day incidents etc).
 

dk1

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I'm not coming back!! <D

Well we've been seriously below complement for some considerable time now (pre-Covid), so there's rather a lot of work to be covered.

Been very organised this end. Hardly noticed much difference.
 

O L Leigh

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To be fair to them they may still be very happy with it because it can make things easier for staff.

That's just unsupported supposition.

But it's also not their own money and they're required to act.

The costs are the same, as I explained above (not that anyone is spare any more anyway, rendering the whole discussion over cost pointless).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

@dk1: The company are getting on with training as much as they can, and have been throughout the pandemic. The problem is that people are leaving almost as quickly as the replacements are coming in, so the numbers never catch up.
 

Tomnick

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And it's likely to be costing more money relative to the protection it provides because it provides inferior protection when there's a wait while train crew travel. I can't put it more simply than that.
I think that this is where you're going wrong. Spare turns aren't intended to provide "protection" on the day - they're there to be used as part of the rostering process to cover for known absences (at the rostering stage) such as annual leave, sickness, training, investigations etc.. The number of spare turns should, through an agreed ratio, be set at a level that just about covers all that on a typical day, so all the spares should be allocated to jobs and no jobs left uncovered. There's no such thing as a typical day, though, so you'll inevitably find that there are bad days where they've got no spares left at all and jobs still uncovered, and good days where they've still got spares left over. I don't think that a day where you've got spares left unused indicates that the spare ratio is wrong - it's just a symptom of the fluctuating nature of absence. It's undoubtedly exacerbated by route knowledge deficiencies (caused by the Covid training backlog or otherwise) and reduced service levels at some depots.

The bit about "protection" sounds more like it should relate to service recovery, standby, cover turns - the name varies. They're usually a booked job in their own right (and thus on the other side of the spare ratio calculation). They're there to rescue the job if it goes pear-shaped on the day. If there are any spares in addition to that, it's a bonus, but you can't rely on it. That's why it isn't really a problem, in my view, for the spares to remain at home. The service recovery traincrew are there if they need someone quickly, and in my experience that's swiftly followed by a telephone call: "I've had to use the standby - can you come in and sit spare please?". If someone in the messroom does have Covid, then at least you're minimising the proportion of the depot that's likely to be wiped out as a consequence.
 

Moonshot

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I think that this is where you're going wrong. Spare turns aren't intended to provide "protection" on the day - they're there to be used as part of the rostering process to cover for known absences (at the rostering stage) such as annual leave, sickness, training, investigations etc.. The number of spare turns should, through an agreed ratio, be set at a level that just about covers all that on a typical day, so all the spares should be allocated to jobs and no jobs left uncovered. There's no such thing as a typical day, though, so you'll inevitably find that there are bad days where they've got no spares left at all and jobs still uncovered, and good days where they've still got spares left over. I don't think that a day where you've got spares left unused indicates that the spare ratio is wrong - it's just a symptom of the fluctuating nature of absence. It's undoubtedly exacerbated by route knowledge deficiencies (caused by the Covid training backlog or otherwise) and reduced service levels at some depots.

The bit about "protection" sounds more like it should relate to service recovery, standby, cover turns - the name varies. They're usually a booked job in their own right (and thus on the other side of the spare ratio calculation). They're there to rescue the job if it goes pear-shaped on the day. If there are any spares in addition to that, it's a bonus, but you can't rely on it. That's why it isn't really a problem, in my view, for the spares to remain at home. The service recovery traincrew are there if they need someone quickly, and in my experience that's swiftly followed by a telephone call: "I've had to use the standby - can you come in and sit spare please?". If someone in the messroom does have Covid, then at least you're minimising the proportion of the depot that's likely to be wiped out as a consequence.
That just about sums it up perfectly.
 

43066

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I think that this is where you're going wrong. Spare turns aren't intended to provide "protection" on the day - they're there to be used as part of the rostering process to cover for known absences (at the rostering stage) such as annual leave, sickness, training, investigations etc.. The number of spare turns should, through an agreed ratio, be set at a level that just about covers all that on a typical day, so all the spares should be allocated to jobs and no jobs left uncovered. There's no such thing as a typical day, though, so you'll inevitably find that there are bad days where they've got no spares left at all and jobs still uncovered, and good days where they've still got spares left over. I don't think that a day where you've got spares left unused indicates that the spare ratio is wrong - it's just a symptom of the fluctuating nature of absence. It's undoubtedly exacerbated by route knowledge deficiencies (caused by the Covid training backlog or otherwise) and reduced service levels at some depots.

The bit about "protection" sounds more like it should relate to service recovery, standby, cover turns - the name varies. They're usually a booked job in their own right (and thus on the other side of the spare ratio calculation). They're there to rescue the job if it goes pear-shaped on the day. If there are any spares in addition to that, it's a bonus, but you can't rely on it. That's why it isn't really a problem, in my view, for the spares to remain at home. The service recovery traincrew are there if they need someone quickly, and in my experience that's swiftly followed by a telephone call: "I've had to use the standby - can you come in and sit spare please?". If someone in the messroom does have Covid, then at least you're minimising the proportion of the depot that's likely to be wiped out as a consequence.

Indeed! I’m not sure why it’s taken several pages to make that point. It’s blindingly obvious that spare from
home is a red hearing in terms of service resilience (at least it is to those of us who actually work in the industry and see these issues play out on a daily basis).
 

Solent&Wessex

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Not caused by staffing though

Most cancellations have resulted on the Scottish route having speed restrictions due to severe weather, the Hull route having issues with Selby swing bridge failing multiple times this year, and the South route saw several freight train’s blocking the line, and again failure of the swing bridge.

*with the exception of a particularly bad month which saw Covid cases spread through the depot like wildfire resulting in more than half of a link self-isolating

On a point of order, the Selby Swing Bridge has been very reliable since it got refurbished a few years ago. I believe it is Keadby bridge which is quite unreliable. The issue on the Hull route is regular level crossing failures, which have never worked properly since they were modernised a couple of years ago.


However, back to the topic at hand:

There is some irony in that Aslef's withdrawal of rest day working is increasing the problem they say they are trying to avoid - messrooms which used to be quiet are now chock-a-block with drivers and guards sitting around because the trains they should be working on are cancelled.
 

muz379

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Unfortunately the reality is that staff costs are under much more focus now than they have been for the past few decades, and anything which brings down productivity is in the firing line. It will be difficult enough to keep sensible spare ratios in the conventional sense even. If people don't like that, that's their view and they're entitled to it.
I think you need to bear in mind that at the start of covid all training basically stopped and operators brought in reduced timetables . That led to a lot more unutilised spare than usual even with what was offset by CV and CEV crew shielding and the people off with covid / self isolating. If the DFT number crunchers are looking at what happened during covid and thinking spare is essentially a good old Jolly they'll wreck the job to the extent that they'll need robust RDE agreements to keep the wheels turning .
 

Moonshot

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I think you need to bear in mind that at the start of covid all training basically stopped and operators brought in reduced timetables . That led to a lot more unutilised spare than usual even with what was offset by CV and CEV crew shielding and the people off with covid / self isolating. If the DFT number crunchers are looking at what happened during covid and thinking spare is essentially a good old Jolly they'll wreck the job to the extent that they'll need robust RDE agreements to keep the wheels turning .
Again , absolutely spot on.
 

billio

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Much better to run York Scarborough as a shuttle.
Having been caught out by these cancelled trains last Thursday and eventually using the bus instead, I would agree. A reliable shuttle would be far better than the current arrangements. We have a situation where the more local Hull - Scarborough service is better then the so called Express service.

A shuttle service would make it easier to open other stations on this route which I think would increase the off-season passengers considerably.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I think you need to bear in mind that at the start of covid all training basically stopped and operators brought in reduced timetables . That led to a lot more unutilised spare than usual even with what was offset by CV and CEV crew shielding and the people off with covid / self isolating. If the DFT number crunchers are looking at what happened during covid and thinking spare is essentially a good old Jolly they'll wreck the job to the extent that they'll need robust RDE agreements to keep the wheels turning .

Again , absolutely spot on.


And the same point also suggests Aslef is wrong too.

They are assuming that by returning to normal working and getting rid of spare at home then suddenly mess rooms will be full of drivers sat around spare spreading covid to each other.

This would almost certainly not be the case - pre-covid the amount of spare people sitting around who hadn't actually been allocated work was so small it wasn't worth worrying about. It is even less likely now, so I simply don't believe there would be any pressure on mess room capacity at all.
 

ComUtoR

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There is some irony in that Aslef's withdrawal of rest day working is increasing the problem they say they are trying to avoid - messrooms which used to be quiet are now chock-a-block with drivers and guards sitting around because the trains they should be working on are cancelled.

If a Driver and Guard are available. Why is their train cancelled ?
 

Moonshot

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And the same point also suggests Aslef is wrong too.

They are assuming that by returning to normal working and getting rid of spare at home then suddenly mess rooms will be full of drivers sat around spare spreading covid to each other.

This would almost certainly not be the case - pre-covid the amount of spare people sitting around who hadn't actually been allocated work was so small it wasn't worth worrying about. It is even less likely now, so I simply don't believe there would be any pressure on mess room capacity at all.
There is a correlation between the amount of services actually run, and staff sat around. As it stands right now, the service level is a lot higher than it was at the start of the covid pandemic. Plenty of staff found themselves staying at home......it wouldn't be the case right now as you state. Removal of rest day working ( and staff with covid ) is now leading to trains cancelled irrespective of how spares are treated. Whether including the wording " where possible, spares not required are to stay at home " in a new agreement would solve the issue I honestly don't know. Of course the the flip side of this particular coin is that it costs the workaholic staff money, and at a drivers rate for overtime, that is no small amount
 

Fokx

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If a Driver and Guard are available. Why is their train cancelled ?
Could be for multiple reasons such as:

- Driver signs traction, guard doesn’t
- Driver and guard don’t sign the route required for service
- Driver and guard are on legally required PNB
- Driver is running out of hours to take the train
- Driver and guard were only due to take train half-way (e.g to Leeds) to take over another service and there’s no traincrew available to take their train from the halfway point and it can’t be left abandoned taking up platform space
 

muz379

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Could be for multiple reasons such as:

- Driver signs traction, guard doesn’t
- Driver and guard don’t sign the route required for service
- Driver and guard are on legally required PNB
- Driver is running out of hours to take the train
- Driver and guard were only due to take train half-way (e.g to Leeds) to take over another service and there’s no traincrew available to take their train from the halfway point and it can’t be left abandoned taking up platform space
Only a driver and/or guard to work it one way and units would be left out of place
 

mike57

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Having been caught out by these cancelled trains last Thursday and eventually using the bus instead, I would agree. A reliable shuttle would be far better than the current arrangements. We have a situation where the more local Hull - Scarborough service is better then the so called Express service.

A shuttle service would make it easier to open other stations on this route which I think would increase the off-season passengers considerably.
We live on the Hull Scarborough line, and although Northern have had a really bad press in terms of their operation in the Manchester and Leeds area in our corner of the world the service has been reliable. Apart from the occasional problem, compounded by the long single track section from Bridlington to Hunmanby you can plan a journey with confidence as most of the time your train turns up.

TPE on the other hand have been a disaster since the timetable change fiasco in May 2018. This latest round of poor service is just another episode in the ongoing saga. TPE have plenty of excuses, but no real plan. The Scarborough service has actually run fairly well over the past 12 months as a shuttle. Turning up at the station and finding no trains with just a general comment 'to use the Coastliner' bus is just not acceptable. Yesterday there were 3-4 hour gaps in service. Reading this thread there are obviosly problems at TPE, but as a passenger all I want is my train to turn up, on time, with enough carriages that I can get a seat. TOC/Union/DfT problems should not be my problem. During the last meltdown there was a noticeable increase in traffic on the A64 during commuting time, and even pre covid passenger numbers seemed to be dropping. I think a lot of people accept that some level of subsidy for rail services is needed, but when services continually fall apart over a period of years then the arguement for continuing to subsidise becomes hard to justify.
 

PupCuff

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I think that this is where you're going wrong. Spare turns aren't intended to provide "protection" on the day - they're there to be used as part of the rostering process to cover for known absences (at the rostering stage) such as annual leave, sickness, training, investigations etc.. The number of spare turns should, through an agreed ratio, be set at a level that just about covers all that on a typical day, so all the spares should be allocated to jobs and no jobs left uncovered. There's no such thing as a typical day, though, so you'll inevitably find that there are bad days where they've got no spares left at all and jobs still uncovered, and good days where they've still got spares left over. I don't think that a day where you've got spares left unused indicates that the spare ratio is wrong - it's just a symptom of the fluctuating nature of absence. It's undoubtedly exacerbated by route knowledge deficiencies (caused by the Covid training backlog or otherwise) and reduced service levels at some depots.

The bit about "protection" sounds more like it should relate to service recovery, standby, cover turns - the name varies. They're usually a booked job in their own right (and thus on the other side of the spare ratio calculation). They're there to rescue the job if it goes pear-shaped on the day. If there are any spares in addition to that, it's a bonus, but you can't rely on it. That's why it isn't really a problem, in my view, for the spares to remain at home. The service recovery traincrew are there if they need someone quickly, and in my experience that's swiftly followed by a telephone call: "I've had to use the standby - can you come in and sit spare please?". If someone in the messroom does have Covid, then at least you're minimising the proportion of the depot that's likely to be wiped out as a consequence.

I don't know the situation at TPE, but it's worth remembering that not all TOCs have service recovery/standby/cover turns - some just have spare, which are used for everything whether they're planned in advance or covering a shift on the day. In these cases the spare crews *are* the service recovery.
 

Tomnick

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I don't know the situation at TPE, but it's worth remembering that not all TOCs have service recovery/standby/cover turns - some just have spare, which are used for everything whether they're planned in advance or covering a shift on the day. In these cases the spare crews *are* the service recovery.
Ta. Is the spare ratio set higher in those cases, so that there should be some spares left on a typical day, or is it a conscious decision just not to bother on the basis that the additional resilience doesn't justify the cost of dedicated resources? The latter might well be a sensible approach at some depots anyway, e.g. long distance work where a dedicated standby with fixed hours can't actually do anything useful after a couple of hours. Either way, I'd expect that 'spare from home' would work on the basis of a certain number of spares being nominated to come into work and any others remaining at home.
 
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