Christmas engineering works - can we do without them?

[deltic]

Every year large amounts of engineering work takes place over Christmas.

The reason given is that this is the quietest time of the year. However, it is not clear whether this is the case anymore with leisure travel perhaps now more important than commuter trips.

Working at one of the worst times of year for weather, having to bring large amounts of contractors to undertake the work at extremely high pay rates is inefficient and incredibly expensive.

Is now the time to reconsider how and when major engineering projects are undertaken on the railway? To some extent we are already seeing that with the recent Bristol TM works and those at Waterloo. Is there more that can be done to spread out major works over the year rather than the big bang Christmas and Easter holiday approaches of the past?

 

[InOban]

It's also the worst time of year to force families to drive around the country visiting relatives. Until 40 years ago there were extra trains through the holiday periods.
I believe that the quietest times of year for Intercity travel are November and late January to early February. That's when longer blockades should take place. And a 24 hour block should start at noon on Saturday and end at noon on Sunday.
You only have to look at airline schedules.

 

[Neptune]

Lots of small blocks across multiple weekends are far more disruptive to travel than one big block for a week around the quietest time for travel. Plus over consecutive days a lot more can be done in a quicker timescale than having multiple blocks 2 days at a time.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Business meetings can be scheduled around scheduled engineering works -as many of my colleagues did during the Ipswich Tunnel works. You can't re-schedule Christmas

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Lots of small blocks across multiple weekends are far more disruptive to travel than one big block for a week around the quietest time for travel. Plus over consecutive days a lot more can be done in a quicker timescale than having multiple blocks 2 days at a time.

This +1

 

[Neptune]

In my area there are major works around Leeds station from 27/12 to 03/01. Where a service isn’t going to Leeds there are RRB’s or in some cases alternative services (Wakefield W to Leeds still has LNER & XC services for instance).

If it’s about leisure travel (which it looks like it is) then timescales should be less of an issue. Just plan around it. The options are there so use them.

1 week to make massive improvements is nothing compared to every weekend for months.

 

[The Planner]

Every year large amounts of engineering work takes place over Christmas.

The reason given is that this is the quietest time of the year. However, it is not clear whether this is the case anymore with leisure travel perhaps now more important than commuter trips.

Working at one of the worst times of year for weather, having to bring large amounts of contractors to undertake the work at extremely high pay rates is inefficient and incredibly expensive.

Is now the time to reconsider how and when major engineering projects are undertaken on the railway? To some extent we are already seeing that with the recent Bristol TM works and those at Waterloo. Is there more that can be done to spread out major works over the year rather than the big bang Christmas and Easter holiday approaches of the past?

Engineering works over Xmas and Boxing day don't require compensation to operators as they aren't running trains. This pushes the balance massively towards doing works over the festive period in terms of cost. Operators do not have to accept the blocks, they are the ones who agree and say to put it there.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Engineering works over Xmas and Boxing day don't require compensation to operators as they aren't running trains. This pushes the balance massively towards doing works over the festive period in terms of cost.

that makes TOTAL sense.

 

[steamybrian]

Engineering works over Xmas and Boxing day don't require compensation to operators as they aren't running trains. This pushes the balance massively towards doing works over the festive period in terms of cost. Operators do not have to accept the blocks, they are the ones who agree and say to put it there.

I agree.
In addition the period 27 December to 2nd January many commuters/schoolchildren/students are on holiday so trains are much quieter.
A long blockade of several days around this period gives Engineers the chance to undertake major work at critical junctions or bridge renewals which cannot be undertaken in 24 hours.
I was working for BR in the 1990s when planning the Redhill to Tonbridge electrification/modernisation work and it was calculated that a long blockade closure gave a cost saving of 30% as opposed to a large number of weekend blocks.

 

[najaB]

Is there more that can be done to spread out major works over the year rather than the big bang Christmas and Easter holiday approaches of the past?

The process of setting up and taking down a possession costs time and money with no resulting output. Three short blockades triples the waste as compared to one long one.

And that's before you even consider that breaking a job down into three sub-jobs each taking 24 hours is going to result in more costs and effort then doing it in a single job that takes ~72 hours.

 

[deltic]

I agree.
In addition the period 27 December to 2nd January many commuters/schoolchildren/students are on holiday so trains are much quieter.
A long blockade of several days around this period gives Engineers the chance to undertake major work at critical junctions or bridge renewals which cannot be undertaken in 24 hours.
I was working for BR in the 1990s when planning the Redhill to Tonbridge electrification/modernisation work and it was calculated that a long blockade closure gave a cost saving of 30% as opposed to a large number of weekend blocks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2021 ==

The process of setting up and taking down a possession costs time and money with no resulting output. Three short blockades triples the waste as compared to one long one.

And that's before you even consider that breaking a job down into three sub-jobs each taking 24 hours is going to result in more costs and effort then doing it in a single job that takes ~72 hours.

No-one is saying long blockades are not the best way of doing things just that changing travel patterns means that Christmas time may not be the best time to do them as demonstrated by the summer closures at Waterloo and recent closures at Bristol TM

Engineering works over Xmas and Boxing day don't require compensation to operators as they aren't running trains. This pushes the balance massively towards doing works over the festive period in terms of cost. Operators do not have to accept the blocks, they are the ones who agree and say to put it there.

That is just the way present contracts are written, does not mean its the best way of doing things. With GBR there is the chance to think afresh how things are done

 

[najaB]

No-one is saying long blockades are not the best way of doing things just that changing travel patterns means that Christmas time may not be the best time to do them as demonstrated by the summer closures at Waterloo and recent closures at Bristol TM

You asked if the works couldn't be "spread out over the year" - if that doesn't mean breaking them into smaller blockades what do you mean?

 

[Ken H]

The Christmas blockades get a massive bad press each year. Its a good way to make leisure travellers think the railway doesnt want them. The move to electronic business meetings has changed the landscape. The railway has to re-think its purpose.

You asked if the works couldn't be "spread out over the year" - if that doesn't mean breaking them into smaller blockades what do you mean?

Long blockades at other times. Like they did for resignalling years ago. Just make sure there is a decent timetable round the blockade. Using trains where possible.

 

[deltic]

You asked if the works couldn't be "spread out over the year" - if that doesn't mean breaking them into smaller blockades what do you mean?

It means instead of doing a dozen major projects over Christmas you do one major project a month every month somewhere on the network. This should make better use of resources and reduce costs.

 

[The Planner]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2021 ==


No-one is saying long blockades are not the best way of doing things just that changing travel patterns means that Christmas time may not be the best time to do them as demonstrated by the summer closures at Waterloo and recent closures at Bristol TM

That is just the way present contracts are written, does not mean its the best way of doing things. With GBR there is the chance to think afresh how things are done

It is being looked at, but all you are likely to do is put everything into January/February where numbers are lowest and revenue reduced. You are just moving the problem.

It means instead of doing a dozen major projects over Christmas you do one major project a month every month somewhere on the network. This should make better use of resources and reduce costs.

That happens as part of deconfliction anyway. You can't cut off Scotland for example. XC don't accept double blocks within certain journey times. You still need gauge cleared freight routes. You need to avoid tourist areas in summer. You need to be mindful of outside industry closures. You need to keep intermodal going in the autumn so little Johnny gets what he wants for Christmas. All of it needs operator agreement as well. GBR still won't solve all that.

 

[najaB]

It means instead of doing a dozen major projects over Christmas you do one major project a month every month somewhere on the network. This should make better use of resources and reduce costs.

I would reduce the costs to the infrastructure operator as they can use a smaller workforce and less equipment. On the other hand, the train operators will want the disruption to happen when they are carrying the smallest number of passengers - which tends to be over the December festive season and, to a lesser extent, over the Easter weekend.

 

[Bald Rick]

Every year large amounts of engineering work takes place over Christmas

correct

The reason given is that this is the quietest time of the year. However, it is not clear whether this is the case anymore

it is.

It means instead of doing a dozen major projects over Christmas you do one major project a month every month somewhere on the network. This should make better use of resources and reduce costs.

that happens anyway.

what you ’see‘ happening at Christmas is about 20% of the total Christmas plan. The other 80% happens on Christmas Day / Boxing Day only, and is typically difficult stuff that needs all line blocks in busy areas. Some of this is annual maintenance - eg the power systems crash tests in control centres, which you don’t want to be doing on a normal weekend. For example this year almost every main line into London is shut Christmas a day / Boxing Day.

the work that happens across Christmas, ie outside 25/26th is all done with agreement of the TOCs and FOCs, being the people who know their customers and markets.

as an aside, there is not much commercial freight over a Christmas / new year, which not only makes it easy to get the possessions, but also frees up resource for the engineeering trains.

 

[Bevan Price]

Christmas & New Year used to be busy until the 1960s/70s, but are now quiet because many businesses now close for a week or more between Christmas & New Year. (Something which never happened then -- it was normally finish work on Christmas Eve and back to work the day after Boxing Day - if that was a weekday.)

Easter weekend (except Good Friday) used to be very busy, often needing reliefs. It would probably still be busy, but many passengers learned to avoid rail travel around Easter, because they were fed up with being bu**ered about by engineering work & rail replacement buses.

 

[GB]

Every year large amounts of engineering work takes place over Christmas.

The reason given is that this is the quietest time of the year. However, it is not clear whether this is the case anymore with leisure travel perhaps now more important than commuter trips.

Working at one of the worst times of year for weather, having to bring large amounts of contractors to undertake the work at extremely high pay rates is inefficient and incredibly expensive.

Is now the time to reconsider how and when major engineering projects are undertaken on the railway? To some extent we are already seeing that with the recent Bristol TM works and those at Waterloo. Is there more that can be done to spread out major works over the year rather than the big bang Christmas and Easter holiday approaches of the past?

Just a note, not everyone working on the railway over Christmas is on "extremely high pay rates". I'm working a 12hr shift xmas day and certainly not.

 

[mmh]

It's also the worst time of year to force families to drive around the country visiting relatives. Until 40 years ago there were extra trains through the holiday periods.
I believe that the quietest times of year for Intercity travel are November and late January to early February. That's when longer blockades should take place. And a 24 hour block should start at noon on Saturday and end at noon on Sunday.
You only have to look at airline schedules.

Really? Roads are far quieter on Christmas Day and Boxing Day here in North Wales than any other time of the year. Are they busy in equivalent parts of Scotland? It feels unlikely.

 

[30907]

It's also the worst time of year to force families to drive around the country visiting relatives. Until 40 years ago there were extra trains through the holiday periods.

Even 40 years ago (when I had the holiday schedules on my desk) the extra trains ran before and after the holidays* not during them (with some exceptions between Christmas and New Year - East Coast Anglo-Scottish services for example).
* and on Bank Holiday Monday afternoons.
Road traffic follows much the same pattern BTW.

That's when longer blockades should take place. And a 24 hour block should start at noon on Saturday and end at noon on Sunday.
You only have to look at airline schedules.

True for business flights, perhaps, but not universal.

Really? Roads are far quieter on Christmas Day and Boxing Day here in North Wales than any other time of the year. Are they busy in equivalent parts of Scotland? It feels unlikely.

Scotland still focuses on Hogmanay with Boxing Day not a public holiday, but your comment is broadly true for England (longer distances).

 

[Nev85]

Scotland still focuses on Hogmanay with Boxing Day not a public holiday, but your comment is broadly true for England (longer distances).

Urm... since when is Boxing Day not a local holiday in Scotland?

Public and bank holidays

Scotland’s bank holidays for the year, including January, May, summer and winter dates. Find out how they work and where to check local public holidays.

www.mygov.scot

 

[mmh]

Urm... since when is Boxing Day not a local holiday in Scotland?

Public and bank holidays

Scotland’s bank holidays for the year, including January, May, summer and winter dates. Find out how they work and where to check local public holidays.

www.mygov.scot

You're not Scottish then I assume, as what he said is completely true. Scotland has never traditionally shutdown on Boxing Day, and has always had its extra day after New Year.

The Internet can be an awful thing. It leads people to quote things they have no experience of as an argument, sadly.

 

[najaB]

The Internet can be an awful thing. It leads people to quote things they have no experience of as an argument, sadly.

By the same token, the source that was quoted is correct - Boxing Day is a bank holiday in Scotland. And is a public holiday in many council areas as well.

E.g. for Dundee the public holidays are:

New Year's Day (or in lieu)
Spring holiday - first Monday in April
May holiday - first Monday in May
Victoria Day - last Monday in May
Trades holiday - fourth Monday in July
Autumn holiday - first Monday in October
Christmas Day (or in lieu)
Boxing Day (or in lieu)

Source: https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/servi...-and-legal-services/public-holidays-in-dundee

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Every year large amounts of engineering work takes place over Christmas.

The reason given is that this is the quietest time of the year. However, it is not clear whether this is the case anymore with leisure travel perhaps now more important than commuter trips.

Working at one of the worst times of year for weather, having to bring large amounts of contractors to undertake the work at extremely high pay rates is inefficient and incredibly expensive.

Is now the time to reconsider how and when major engineering projects are undertaken on the railway? To some extent we are already seeing that with the recent Bristol TM works and those at Waterloo. Is there more that can be done to spread out major works over the year rather than the big bang Christmas and Easter holiday approaches of the past?

Given train crew levels of self isolation a good call this year but I do wonder now there is an appetite for mid week blockades perhaps we will see some shift out of this period. For instance if the huge drop in commuters is now baked in then one does have to question why a blockade into London terminals can't even be considered anytime of the year so work is more evened out and we get away from the very expensive costs that get incurred on Xmas and Boxing day.

 

[Bald Rick]

Given train crew levels of self isolation a good call this year but I do wonder now there is an appetite for mid week blockades perhaps we will see some shift out of this period. For instance if the huge drop in commuters is now baked in then one does have to question why a blockade into London terminals can't even be considered anytime of the year so work is more evened out and we get away from the very expensive costs that get incurred on Xmas and Boxing day.

Mid weeks into London are still (present new restrictions notwithstanding) busier than weekends.

Nevertheless, week long blocks are more common now (at last!) with half terms popular due to lower traffic and increased bus availability. There’s a couple in DC land this Feb.

 

[najaB]

Nevertheless, week long blocks are more common now (at last!) with half terms popular due to lower traffic and increased bus availability.

I dare say you guys can get a ton of work done over the course of a week.

 

[Bald Rick]

I dare say you guys can get a ton of work done over the course of a week.

Yes - but for some types of work there are limitations, and the benefit over, say, 4 weekends is relatively small.

 

[JamesT]

You're not Scottish then I assume, as what he said is completely true. Scotland has never traditionally shutdown on Boxing Day, and has always had its extra day after New Year.

The Internet can be an awful thing. It leads people to quote things they have no experience of as an argument, sadly.

It’s been a public holiday on Boxing Day in Scotland since 1974. I was only born in 1981, but I was never aware of Boxing Day being anything other than a holiday.

 

[InOban]

Don't confuse bank holidays with public holidays
In Scotland public holidays are a local authority responsibility and differ from place to place.

When I was young (65 years ago) it was quite common to work on Christmas Day, and indeed there were some trains on the day until the 70s. But none on New year's Day.

BTW I am all in favour of longer blockades, planned well in advance The Queen Street blockade was 16 weeks, AIRC.