New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[MikeWh]

... the genuine child/YPRC ticket holders ...

Not to mention the disappointment of children aged 5 or 6 who finally get to have a ticket rather than being carried through by daddy, only to find that their ticket doesn't actually magically open the gates. The first time that happened to me at Charing Cross it took quite a while to explain to my kid why he had to be treated as a potential criminal.

 

[Striker]

Not to mention the disappointment of children aged 5 or 6 who finally get to have a ticket rather than being carried through by daddy, only to find that their ticket doesn't actually magically open the gates. The first time that happened to me at Charing Cross it took quite a while to explain to my kid why he had to be treated as a potential criminal.

In response to this I suggest a big bowl of lollipops by the ticket barrier. Children are often distracted by confectionary.

 

[daccer]

Revenue protection is one of my bug bears on todays railway - not because of the lack of it but the fact that we need to spend so much to make people pay for the service. The modern day railway is business led which means that ticket gates have been costed out carefully and if a retrun on investment can't be shown then they would not be installed. This goes to show how much revenue the TOC's think is being lost if they can justify gates on top of on-board checking.

For me there will always be an endemic level of fare -dodging on trains unless you have one access point per train (like a bus) which can be checked on boarding or every seat has to be reserved in advance such as on an airline. This would take forever and so the train will always be prone to fare avoidance as the turn up and go service with multiple doors for speed of despatch is a necessity.

I would think RPI's would cover their costs on nearly every service and for the life of me don't know why many more aren't employed. Before long the deterrent factor would be so strong people would be educated into buying the correct ticket as they know they would get checked and possibly fined extra for having the wrong ticket.

I was always keen to see an exercise where all the stations on a route where blockaded for a complete day to see the level of fare dodging going on. By its nature it is impossible to accurately predict the amount of revenue being lost as fare-dodgers dont admit they are fare dodgers!

 

[jon0844]

The problem is that an accountant can't see how employing staff/guards/RPIs for almost every train would make them more money.. To them, the RPI would pretty much get rid of fare evasion, thus they'd eventually get no fines.

To an account, the RPI is now a waste of money - nobody is evading anyway. Said accountant can't accept that it's only becuase the RPI is there, so when s/he goes the fare evasion will begin again.

The fact is, in this country (and many others) people have grown up not to do the right thing, but do whatever you can get away with. That's why we need to enforce everything instead of just hoping people will respect the rules - and fail so badly, which only helps to let everyone know you WILL get away with it.

Take other countries where people have pride and respect and don't need police everywhere. Japan is incredibly clean and crime is low (not non-existent, but low) and that is very much down to a difference in culture.

Anyway, I'd like to see gates AND staff. Yes, platforms must be announced more than 5-minutes before at a main terminal (that should happen anyway, as not everyone is able bodied and getting to platform 11 from the main concourse), and when people are caught for trying the little tricks like getting a cheap ticket to get through the barriers, it's a day in court and a criminal record.

Oh, and smartcards beyond London, so the gates will be much faster to operate than people faffing around with paper tickets (especially for the poor sods who got 101 tickets with their family advance booking on East Coast with a separate ticket for just about everything and will spend 2 hours working out which tickets to put in the gate).

 

[dk1]

I see Truro and Exeter Central are having barriers installed at the moment aswell, about time too!

I heard Exeter Central was at long last getting gated but didnt know about Truro. Both excellent & much needed. There is much local traffic from both & although with Exeter these are mainly DMUs with a conductor checking tickets on almost all trains they do become very crowded. Truro is slightly different. Last year i twice visited this lovely City & caught HSTs back towards Penzance around 17.00. All seats vacated by passengers from London/Plymouth quickly filled by around 80-100 joining. Many where students who where talking of where to sit or move to avoid getting caught by the conductor who had no chance of getting even 10% of fares. One girl commented that she hadn't paid once that week!!

 

[jon0844]

I guess if you know you WILL be checked on an IC service, you get a ticket to the station (or after) where you'd be checked and then hope that the TM remembers gripping you, but not the destination, when you're still on it later on. Thus, no further checking. It must actually be worse to not know when you'll be gripped, so maybe staff should 'mix it up' a bit.

Only last week, a man was using a single to Potters Bar from Hatfield. The train (0903) skips Potters Bar and the RPI went back after we flew through the station (good memory!) yet the passenger didn't seem overly concerned that he'd missed his station.

When questioned why he got a ticket to Potters Bar - he replied 'I didn't realise this didn't stop there' to which the RPI said 'you'll need to get off at Finsbury Park and go back'. To be fair, you'd HAVE to give the passenger the benefit of the doubt as most trains DO stop at Potters Bar.. yet, this isn't the first time people have been caught with a ticket to PBR when they're going all the way to Finsbury Park (with 'free' access to the tube, or King's Cross where you switch to your Oyster).

I got off at Finsbury Park, and saw him go down the stairs to the tube! I wonder how long he'll pull that one off? Not long; the new gates at FPK should get him!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I could add an observation of my own to those dk1 and jonmorris0844. Often while travelling on long distance services there will be a ticket check for passengers joinging at the most recent station.
While the guard walks through requesting all tickets from xxxx, I often see passengers who have just joined at that station bury themselves in their work or leisure reading while they pass with no intention of showing their ticket (if they have one to show).

 

[Invincibles]

Maybe we should adopt the american system of putting something above the seat to show that the occupant has had their ticket checked and where that ticket is valid to. I was quite surprised to have to do it when I was there but it worked well.

The chinese system of having everyone in dedicated waiting rooms and connections being like airport transfers from arrivals to departure lounge would be taking things a bit far. Effective though.

 

[Aictos]

Oh, and smartcards beyond London, so the gates will be much faster to operate than people faffing around with paper tickets (especially for the poor sods who got 101 tickets with their family advance booking on East Coast with a separate ticket for just about everything and will spend 2 hours working out which tickets to put in the gate).

I agree, Passenger A might be travelling from Peterborough to Edinburgh so will get their actual ticket, a seat reservation and if requested a receipt as well now say there's about 15 people all going though the manual barrier having to sort though the 3 printed tickets to have the right one to have checked by the RPIs on duty all this will take time.

However with a smartcard , the passenger could add a ticket and seat reservation to it much like you can have season tickets added to Oyster smartcards, not forgetting any discounts would be also added to the smartcard and would be much more effective then a paper ticket and Passenger A would just need to swipe their smartcard at the automatic ticket gate and when the RPI or Guard comes though, they would have a smartcard reader which with one swipe tells them if the ticket is valid or not which means rather then have a dozen paper tickets, Passenger A just needs their smartcard for travel.

This will no doubt cost money BUT if you compare the introduction of Oyster in the London area to today, it's easy to see how big of a difference it has made to Londoners day in and day out.

How Oyster Cards reduce the environmental impact of the London bus nework

I'm all for ATGS but at the same time I strongly believe in a staff presence and smartcards.

 

[jopsuk]

It should even be possible to design smartcards with a small e-ink display that could show a passenger with reservations their train and seat number.

 

[jon0844]

If not e-Ink, which sounds expensive (people lose their Oyster cards) you'll have most mobile phones with NFC chips or readers in them soon - so you can scan your own card to check what's on it (I have a Nexus S but it can't decipher any useful info from my Barclaycard or Oyster) and of course staff can too.

Trains could have information points by the doors to remind you of your seat, and you could (this is going too far perhaps) have a system where you scan your ticket against a reader for your seat. You could then scan your seat to mark it occupied if you go to the shop/toilet, on the basis that only the person who has that seat can do so.

It's also then easy to tell if someone hasn't taken their seat, and so it can be used.

 

[12CSVT]

ATGs can be used for all kinds of RP excercises aswell, they can be set up to reject certain ticket types or tickets from certain locations or railcard tickets etc, you'll find most FGW stations gatelines will reject child tickets at most times, we've often set the gates at Reading to reject Reading west tickets and had many MG11's from it!

So anybody who genuinely travels to / from Reading West is at best stigmatised, at worst criminalised, by FGW ?

 

[Lampshade]

So anybody who genuinely travels to / from Reading West is at best stigmatised, at worst criminalised, by FGW ?

As is anyone legitimately holding a 16-25 railcard. Is it just the YPRC that can be rejected or all railcards?

 

[Clip]

Finally Kings Cross is getting automatic ticket gates or ATGs in the main shed which is Platforms 0 to 8 with the work to install them on Platforms 0 to 5 starting on the 28th December and is aimed to go live from 7 February.

More news to follow shortly....

Was in the plans from the outset of the redevelopment.

 

[jon0844]

So anybody who genuinely travels to / from Reading West is at best stigmatised, at worst criminalised, by FGW ?

Is it wrong to check passports at airports because most people are carrying perfectly valid ones? When you're stopped by immigration or customs, do you feel criminalised? Perhaps, but that's life.

I see no problem with asking to see a railcard for discounted tickets (and that would include me being stopped every now and then to check my season ticket matches my photocard - I've never had it checked in eight years!), but perhaps it should be made clearer that checks are in operation to stop people trying to use the gates and being confused?

 

[asylumxl]

I've got to say, the rejection of railcard discounted tickets by barriers really annoys me. I understand why, but I think it's unfair.

If I am first in a queue to get through the barriers, it annoys me I then have to go to the back of another queue for the barrier staff to let me through when my ticket is rejected. It's almost like we're being discriminated and punished for getting a discount.

 

[12CSVT]

Is it wrong to check passports at airports because most people are carrying perfectly valid ones? When you're stopped by immigration or customs, do you feel criminalised? Perhaps, but that's life.

I see no problem with asking to see a railcard for discounted tickets (and that would include me being stopped every now and then to check my season ticket matches my photocard - I've never had it checked in eight years!), but perhaps it should be made clearer that checks are in operation to stop people trying to use the gates and being confused?

The point I was making is that people who travel to / from Reading West face the inconvenience and embarrassment of having their tickets rejected time after time, being grilled by the RPIs and being constantly being delayed at the barriers while everybody else is able to sail through the gates.

ie, it is always the same people who will always suffer this inconvenience for no other reason than the station they happen to be travelling to or from.

 

[jon0844]

If I am first in a queue to get through the barriers, it annoys me I then have to go to the back of another queue for the barrier staff to let me through when my ticket is rejected. It's almost like we're being discriminated and punished for getting a discount.

Almost, but that isn't the reason and you know that is the case! So should everyone else. It's because people buy discounted/child tickets to which they're not allowed.

The point I was making is that people who travel to / from Reading West face the inconvenience and embarrassment of having their tickets rejected time after time, being grilled by the RPIs and being constantly being delayed at the barriers while everybody else is able to sail through the gates.

Nobody should be getting grilled. It should be a case of showing your valid ticket and being allowed through. If RPIs do more than that, complain.

 

[Aictos]

Was in the plans from the outset of the redevelopment.

Yes but I wasn't expecting it to be this soon, I was expecting the ATGs to be installed about 2012-2013.

 

[asylumxl]

Almost, but that isn't the reason and you know that is the case! So should everyone else. It's because people buy discounted/child tickets to which they're not allowed.

I know, it's just how it makes you feel. Like the other day at Paddington boarding a Penzance service. I was the first person waiting, but because I had a YP discount, I had to join a long queue to get through. I know this has no real bearing, but I was going further than most of these people (watched them put their tickets through), and despite having a YP discount, had paid more. So hell yes I felt victimised, despite knowing the reality.

I know it's illogical and inoperable, but I'd love it if they allowed people on in descending order of distance. Having stood for 4 hours in a MK3 vestibule, I can hapilly say I do not want to do it ever again.

 

[MikeWh]

The point I was making is that people who travel to / from Reading West face the inconvenience and embarrassment of having their tickets rejected time after time, being grilled by the RPIs and being constantly being delayed at the barriers while everybody else is able to sail through the gates.

ie, it is always the same people who will always suffer this inconvenience for no other reason than the station they happen to be travelling to or from.

Nobody should be getting grilled. It should be a case of showing your valid ticket and being allowed through. If RPIs do more than that, complain.

I think the point is that Reading West is just 3 minutes away from Reading so the chances are that very few people will genuinely be making that journey. Add to that if someone is trying to leave Reading when a train from Reading West has not recently arrived. I'd guess that if the ticket is a single/return that has just been purchased then it'll be let through. But if it's a season ticket or TOD printed a long way away then there probably will be a grilling, and quite rightly so.

 

[TomJ93]

SOrry for going a little off topic, why were Coventry's barriers removed?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

SOrry for going a little off topic, why were Coventry's barriers removed?

I suggest VT didn't like them, they are probably the only long-distance TOC not to have gated any of their stations they own, at their own will.

 

[Lampshade]

As is anyone legitimately holding a 16-25 railcard. Is it just the YPRC that can be rejected or all railcards?

 

[TomJ93]

That's good then, those things were an eyesore.

When they were installed there was a gate that led directly onto P1 that was locked and has still yet to be opened, the amount of trains I could have caught if they were still open instead of being funnelled around by the ticket office causing me to just miss them.

 

[RPI]

As is anyone legitimately holding a 16-25 railcard. Is it just the YPRC that can be rejected or all railcards?

If you actually read my post I do not mention YP railcards just "railcards", as for Reading West, well when you catch out 20 or 30 a day going to the excess window and asking for a ticket from Reading West but have actually travelled from places like Newbury and Westbury then yes it is justified to do these excercises as there is only a minute amount of genuine travellers from Reading West to Reading.
The people who moan most about barriers and Revenue Protection are usually the same people who moan about not having their tickets checked and moan about fares going up, you cant have it all ways!
do you suggest we go back to the "good old days" of BR when it was acceptable to travel for free because the treasury would just give BR money every year so they could do things like introduce the open stations concept, which was a farce from day one as the member of staff on the barrier was the least paid on the station but they got rid of them to save money????

 

[hjp766]

Having just had to leg it to the 1127 I first noticed these hideous contraptions being installed. I am intrigued how they are able to do this with the current GC and HT policies but also because of a further discovery I made.

As I had (for once) made it to KX with ten minutes to spare I though I might as well get my GC ticket from the fast ticket machine. BUT - none of the FT machines will sell a ticket other than an all company or EC ticket...

EC must surely either have to start selling all operators tickets from these machines or let the barriers remain open for buy on train operators services.

And one final rant... if you go to the FTM you can't use AMEX, but you can at the manual desks. When I asked someone about this I got some very sheepish looks. Echoes of Skytrain being driven out of business for providing reliable, efficient service at a quarter of a price over the north atlantic... and when the fines got handed out it was multimillion in size... is this going to be a case of deja vu?

HJ

edit: and just another point about EC RPI incompetence... I travel from Cattal... the number of times I get through first to York, then to London without being checked is staggering. When I did in fact get checked once just after Stevenage the RPI refused ot believe that I had boarded at unstaffed station called Cattal and thought I was taking the mick... he was rather sheepish when he finally realised I wasn't and finally gave me the off peak ticket I was entitled to. Cattal we don't even have a permit machine!

 

[DarloRich]

Gates are just wrong in my opinion. They are simply a means for lazy TOC's to do away with as many staff as possible while screwing as much as possible out of passengers.

Take Darlington as an example. NX put gates in. The whole ambience of the station has been ruined. I wrote to them and asked why. I was told it was for my safety and convenience. I wrote back and pointed out that it was neither safe nor convenient for the passenger.

Unsafe because everyone is funnelled into a narrow entrance point leading to a great deal of congestion on both sides of the barriers, giving Mr Terrorost a nice captive target. Inconvenient because everyone is forced to queue, is delayed while some people can’t operate the barriers, casing frustration, anger and the missing of your train. (If you don’t turn up early enough) also think they will put off the casual traveller. It is not very welcoming to be met by the equivalent of a prison gate and to be treated as a criminal because you are unsure what you are supposed to do to access the train you want to travel on.

Furthermore it is simply a means to allow the train companies to govern who visits OUR stations. I used to live behind the station and the closest paper shop was the WH Smith on the station. I used to like my walk down to get a paper. This isn’t possible now as you have to ask the "Operative" for permission to enter the station. If he/she is in a mood they will just say no.

My partner has had surgery on her leg and cant walk too well at present. She can’t carry her case because it will over load her and she might fall. As a caring person I would like to help her on to the train and make sure she is ok. I can’t now because I have to ask the "operative" for his permission to asset my partner. Some say yes, some say no. often they have then refused to assist her because you have to book "travel assistance" in advance. That is wrong, no matter the reason.

In fairness when you explain the position most staff are really good and very helpful and kind, some are not. However you should have to feel like a criminal because you want to access a station.

I have always bought a valid ticket and never have an issue with a guard/RPI/staff member checking my ticket. I want them to check my ticket and catch those not paying their way. However I want a person to do that, not a machine.

Why can’t enough staff be provided to check tickets on trains and deal with people on the wrong train/wrong ticket type? On an IC train say three ticket checking staff per journey, break the train into 2/3 carriage chunks and check tickets after every station. I am sure this used to happen!

I only wish the TOC's would tell the truth about barriers - they are there to maximise profit. That is all; anything else is just a cover.

 

[cuccir]

I've got to say, the rejection of railcard discounted tickets by barriers really annoys me. I understand why, but I think it's unfair.

If I am first in a queue to get through the barriers, it annoys me I then have to go to the back of another queue for the barrier staff to let me through when my ticket is rejected. It's almost like we're being discriminated and punished for getting a discount.

Where on the network are railcard tickets rejected? I've never experienced it on my travels. If Kings Cross barriers operate the same as other East Coast barriers, then they'll accept all tickets.

 

[rmt-driver]

Iv used my railcard reduced ticket in many barriers at various stations without any problems ever.

As for EC machines, iv purchased First Hull Trains only and FCC only tickets from these machines without issue.