New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[MidnightFlyer]

When did Radyr get fenced off?

Cathays, sorry, Cathays. My apologies.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well Fred26 we will have to agree to disagree. Grand Central and Hull trains don't think it is a problem! Most TOC install barriers to cover their own failures. Lincoln central a classic point. The don't offer passengers a way to buy tickets then treat them like fare dodgers!

 

[Fred26]

Well Fred26 we will have to agree to disagree. Grand Central and Hull trains don't think it is a problem! Most TOC install barriers to cover their own failures. Lincoln central a classic point. The don't offer passengers a way to buy tickets then treat them like fare dodgers!

Yes, but that's down to poor PR. That's not a fualt of the barriers.

Also, Grand Central and Hull Trains carry far fewer passengers than East Coast. They are also more desperate to run full trains - because they're not subsidised and because that's how they make a profit - so they will do what they can to make things easier for passengers in order to entice them away from East Coast.

 

[jon0844]

And if/when Hull Trains or Grand Central reach capacity, and it's hard to walk through the train, they'll stop the offer. In fact, they'd have to as word would get out that the trains are full and there can be no checks, so more people will get on (and it will become even more crowded).

So, enjoy it while it lasts!

Are the gates for KGX right by the platforms, or further out (like 9-11) - as in a selection of gates on the ramp, or out on the concourse such that ultimately there will be many more to use (as you go through anywhere and walk along to your platform)?

Hopefully the latter would mean plenty of gates for all but the busiest peak period where a lot of commuter-packed trains arrive at once.

 

[Aictos]

Well another way I would look at it is how much revenue do east coast lose per year because if people travelling without tickets? Is this less than the cost of installing and maintaining barriers? I suspect it is so the should not bother. RPI have no excuse for not checking an entire train in 45 minutes! Barriers are ok for local routes but totally wrong for IC!

I disagree, take Paddington, St Pancras, Liverpool Street for example all are barriered and all have IC services in fact I think the only other London terminal with the older manual gates like Kings Cross is Euston.

I can't see any problems with Paddington for example so why are they totally wrong for IC services?

Ideally on IC services both a guard and a ticket examiner would be provided on the busier services but on some of the quieter IC services, there's no reason why the guard cannot check tickets.

 

[Failed Unit]

In my opinion they are wrong for IC services because they cause too many delays when boarding and because it is possible to check tickets on them.

People don't just turn up at the station and think let's go to York won't bother buying a ticket because I am not likely to get it checked. The do for local services in the South East because they know checks are infrequent.

In Freds example he states someone will walk down the train to avoid the RPI hide in the toilet whatever. That is the description of a detirmined fare dodger. The type that will just get past the barrier with a child single to finsbury park. RPI on east coast don't even let people past them without a ticket so you can't do the you checked mecat the buffet line with them.

The manual barrier in my experience annoy passengers and delay trains. I am deeply concerned that east coast haven't learnt from this. It is not worth it for the minimal revenue they are losing. FCC are a different story they probably do lose a lot with ticketless travel because it is so easy.
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At paddington it is often not possible to check all tickets in the 23 mins to reading. On east coast the first stop is 45. On virgin it is nearly 1 hour if Milton keynes is pick up only.

 

[RPI]

I see Truro and Exeter Central are having barriers installed at the moment aswell, about time too! How anyone can say barriers are in-effective is beyond me, Paddington is an IC station and it is impossible to check even just first class between Padd and Reading, then if your stopping at Newbury, Pewsey, Westbury, Castle Cary its impossible to even make a start on Std as you need to be in the right place to dispatch the train, it's hard enough on a "fast" train that is Reading-Taunton to get std done!

 

[Striker]

Yep, there was one I was thinking of, and Reading it is! (It is possible to avoid all the barriers at Reading by using the llifts.

Thanks!

Just out of interest, is there a thread anywhere which lists all the stations without barriers? Maybe it could be made a sticky?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thanks!

Just out of interest, is there a thread anywhere which lists all the stations without barriers? Maybe it could be made a sticky?

Without? Christ, there will be well in excess of 1750 of the 2500 stations in the UK gateless... do you mean 'big' stations? In that case, off the top of my head:
Euston, all platforms except 8-11 (LM & LO local trains only);
King's Cross, all platforms except 9-11 (FCC local trains only);
Peterborough;
Crewe;
Preston;
Glasgow Central (though is to be gated soon...).

Manual checks do take place at most of the above though, at times.

To be fair, the general categories for gating are:
Suburban network stations with a frequent service;
Large InterCity termini, or large stations;
Other

 

[Failed Unit]

I see Truro and Exeter Central are having barriers installed at the moment aswell, about time too! How anyone can say barriers are in-effective is beyond me, Paddington is an IC station and it is impossible to check even just first class between Padd and Reading, then if your stopping at Newbury, Pewsey, Westbury, Castle Cary its impossible to even make a start on Std as you need to be in the right place to dispatch the train, it's hard enough on a "fast" train that is Reading-Taunton to get std done!

Very easily. If it is that hard to check tickets then people will just buy a paddington - Ealing broadway and a devonport - Plymouth singles. As you know you won't get checked on the train as you can hide in the toilet, walk to buffet, ignore RPI that is all you need. What use is the barrier? None as many would agree the determined still dodge the honest get delayed.

 

[furryfeet]

I completely disagree.

Anyway, if you install barriers then they are there for good. Surely it's a one-off payment, with the only extras being for engineer call-outs. Comparing the cost of barriers to revenue lost in a year is disingenuous - they're expensive at first, but once they're in, that's it.

so what are the figures then ?

i have asked this question before on this forum, but no-one comes up with the goods !

 

[Failed Unit]

so what are the figures then ?

i have asked this question before on this forum, but no-one comes up with the goods !

The other arguement I find amazing is some thinks I want to go to Leeds. I am going to just travel and take the chance! Maybe on a short journey like new barnet - harringay where the chances of seeing any form of revenue protection are small. But a 2 hour IC journey with a gaurd I doubt it. To me anyone who would take that chance will just buy any ticket to bypass the barrier. Just like at Newark Northgate you just claim to have travelled from unstaffed Collingham if the gaurd catches you.

I would be very interested to see if east coast revenue lost covers the cost of the barriers during their lifetime. I certainly think only FCC will gain here and not east coast. If I was going to try for a free trip to Peterborough I certainly would use them as I expect to see someone on an East Coast train.

 

[TGV]

Those gates are a necessary evil. I hate them. I heard KGX was getting them - but I thought it would be later in the refurbishment.

 

[wintonian]

Yep, there was one I was thinking of, and Reading it is! (It is possible to avoid all the barriers at Reading by using the llifts.

Gosh yes, I never noticed, or used the lifts at Reading.

If you want any platform other than 5, 6, or 7 you down in the lift and back up the stairs and down again, which only prevents wheelchair users from not using the barrier.

Reading station plan

 

[swt_passenger]

Those gates are a necessary evil. I hate them. I heard KGX was getting them - but I thought it would be later in the refurbishment.

These will probably be required temporarily for when they get round to the refurb of the suburban shed. Once all the main shed platforms are done, they could well finish off with 9 only, or 10 and 11 together, being shut, so the short distance services will have to be in a couple of main platforms for a while.

AIUI, until the new concourse comes into use, there just won't be the space for the eventual number of ticket barriers, which is about 40 for exit across the front wall openings, and another 25 or so mainly for entry through the south end of the western range offices.

 

[WestCoast]

I believe that major IC stations should have barriers, however I think the most effective and least inconvenient way is manually barrier stations like this.

A barrier cannot tell whether someone's ticket is valid on a certain service, a trained RPI can. Plus the throughput of people through barriers will be extremely large, luggage will cause problems too. It is bound to delay services like this. You only have to see the rush at Paddington to realise that barriers are not all that suitable.

It works well at Euston with Virgin's RPIs (when they are there of course:roll

I suggest putting RPIs in "control boxes", sort of like Liverpool Lime Street and in major NSE terminals before automatic barriers.

Like a passport control box used in some countries:
http://www.evangelismupdate.com/PHOTOS/RUSSIA2007/Mac coming through passport control in Moscow.jpg

This example from Russia.

 

[Failed Unit]

But if they have an invalid ticket this can be dealt with on the train surely! I hope they never barrier Waverley - platforms 8 & 9 can't cope even with no staff. From my experience at kings cross the manaul barriers cause mega delays (resulting in trains missing slots) surely the fines they get for these delays outweighs the revenue the barrier gets. When that train is first stop York is any pre-boarding check needed?

 

[WestCoast]

But if they have an invalid ticket this can be dealt with on the train surely!

Yes, but the first stop might be Crewe (or even further) on a Virgin service from Euston, or likewise York on an East Coast service. That could mean a very large excess to pay, great for the TOC not so wonderful for the passenger's wallet.

It could be an easy mistake to make as well. Some of the fare restrictions on IC operators (especially with regard to peak/off-peak) are at worst puerile:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Plus, these checks go some way to preventing a determined fare dodger getting away with evasion. The type that hides in the toilet/loiters by the buffet/stares at something in the shop/hides in the luggage racks.

These types of people do exist on IC services (albeit in the minority), and a busy guard responsible for checking a packed 9-car train may not always spot them!

 

[Failed Unit]

You have a point West Coast. Some passengers don't listen / understand the announcements made on the trains. As you correctly state automatic barriers will be of limited use for those passengers. I may be harsh but is it worth delaying a whole train (risking getting it stuck behind an all stops service) for this very small number of people?

As for the determined dodger electronic barriers are totally useless to stop them. Manual ones maybe will stop the single to finsbury park mob getting to Edinburgh, but are there that many of them to got to that length? RPI can do a sting and they do wait outside toilets, check buffets and people walking around.

 

[Lampshade]

You have a point West Coast. Some passengers don't listen / understand the announcements made on the trains. As you correctly state automatic barriers will be of limited use for those passengers. I may be harsh but is it worth delaying a whole train (risking getting it stuck behind an all stops service) for this very small number of people?

Yes, it's all part of the police state, "if you have nothing to hide..." :roll:

A few on here know about my thoughts on barriers, I have nothing but utter disdain for them.

 

[Fred26]

In Freds example he states someone will walk down the train to avoid the RPI hide in the toilet whatever.

No I flaming well didn't.

That is the description of a detirmined fare dodger.

Or a chancer.

The other arguement I find amazing is some thinks I want to go to Leeds. I am going to just travel and take the chance!

That was an example I was using to make a point. The point being, I have made it from Kings Cross to Leeds several times without being asked for a ticket. It is therefore not that much of a leap to imagine passengers that plan to travel without a ticket to Leeds (I know Leeds is gated, but people on here have suggested it's very easy to get out without a ticket).

On board ticket staff are not infallible. I'd be most happy with RPI's/Guards and barriers working together. If a ticket can't be checked on the train then at the very least the passenger must have something to get out at the other end. Surely any ticket is better than no ticket?

I agree, that's not great. I'd love every passenger to have the correct ticket and for them to be all smiles when the inspector comes round checking. I'd love an RPI on every train and for all passengers to have their tickets checked, with the staff walking through the train constantly - that would be extremely dissuasive for anyone attempting to bunk it. At the same time, I know it's not realistic. TOCs hate having staff and they're always trying to find ways to cut staffing levels, particularly on the front line (look at closed ticket offices that were open not so long ago, or now unstaffed platforms). Barriers are not pretty and they are not intelligent, neither are they fair. They may cause delays in some places, but surely that's down to either the original station layout, or the lack of thought upon installation (as Jon Morris says, if the barriers at Kings Cross are one long line of gates, a distance from the platform, so that people can spread themselves out, it won't be too bad, as opposed to be right on top of the platforms). However, the two pluses for me, when it comes to barriers, are that everyone has to have a ticket of some kind and they keep people away from loitering.
For me these are important points. I'd also like to point out the presence of staff, which is never a bad thing. Training of staff is another matter, but in general terms, it is always best to see someone in uniform.

I don't think barriers are perfect and I don't think they should work alone. For me, an RPI or somesuch should always be present on the train, along with barriers at the station.

My last point; some people will always try and evade the fare. Even when confronted with a guard. Some people just do not care about rules and those people will never be stopped. But if a few chancers, which will be most fair evaders, can be stopped, or even curtailed, then that is something.

 

[Failed Unit]

I seriouslty doubt that many people take the chance from London to Leeds. I have gone from Edinburgh - London without a check. It is very rare. Newcastle metro on the other hand people in the past never paid as it was cheaper to take the hit when they got caught. This is where barriers are needed not Inter-city trains!

 

[Fred26]

As you said, agree to disagree.

 

[Failed Unit]

As you said, agree to disagree.

It would be a boring forum if everyone always agreed

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I don't think its the best idea at all, the amount of people that'll push to get through them is just not worth thinking about.

 

[Fred26]

If we're going to talk specifically about Kings Cross, I think we're best off waiting until they're installed and operational first.

 

[Aictos]

But if they have an invalid ticket this can be dealt with on the train surely!

Oh yeah, great idea! You do realise that East Coast as I suspect the other IC operators do as well charge for a brand new ticket which I've heard many times to be in 4 digits.

Far far better for the passenger in question to get their ticket changed at the station of origin then risk paying out for a brand new ticket as a example lets say I brought a GC only ticket for £40 then change my plans and wanted to use a East Coast, I could risk it and end up forking out even more for a new ticket or I could just go to the ticket office and explain that I would like to change my ticket so I can use the East Coast instead, not rocket science is it?

The number of times I've used East Coast and someone's boarded the train not checking their ticket and just boarding the first train that comes along even when staff have told them not to board the train as they will be charged a brand new ticket regardless if they already had a ticket if the ticket they hold is invalid for the service they are on.

I am of course referring to Advance Tickets and TOC only tickets such as FCC/Grand Central/Hull Trains only which are not valid on East Coast services, not forgetting the various restrictions as well....

 

[RPI]

ATGs can be used for all kinds of RP excercises aswell, they can be set up to reject certain ticket types or tickets from certain locations or railcard tickets etc, you'll find most FGW stations gatelines will reject child tickets at most times, we've often set the gates at Reading to reject Reading west tickets and had many MG11's from it!

 

[jon0844]

They are all good examples of why gatelines can be very effective, but I hope they'll have sufficient staff manning the gates for the genuine child/YPRC ticket holders who will in many cases become confused/frustrated about their ticket not working, try multiple times, get a queue building up, have to find a member of staff and potentially miss a train if they were running late.

The system works fine along the line at quieter stations and people are caught out, but at a mainline station it must be a potential for disaster as soon as a couple of trains are announced in close succession on nearby platforms and the gates are swamped.

 

[Failed Unit]

So I see Ajax, the barriers are not really there to prevent fraud. They are there to protect passengers from their own stupidity. How would this work if you were booked on the 1100 with an AP and you attempted to get the 1030? The barrier would let you through as the ticket is valid. It is not unreasonable go through early. Let's think about platform over crowding. Many people wait live side of the barrier for their train. Not much room at kings cross.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are all good examples of why gatelines can be very effective, but I hope they'll have sufficient staff manning the gates for the genuine child/YPRC ticket holders who will in many cases become confused/frustrated about their ticket not working, try multiple times, get a queue building up, have to find a member of staff and potentially miss a train if they were running late.

The system works fine along the line at quieter stations and people are caught out, but at a mainline station it must be a potential for disaster as soon as a couple of trains are announced in close succession on nearby platforms and the gates are swamped.

Exactly the platform gets announced 5 minutes before departure. You ticket is rejected. You annoy the people behind for slowing then down you join the long queue to get onto train. Miss it and the get fined for incorrect AP ticket because the barriers prevented you getting through. The will need lots of large gates for baggage. They need to open longer. More chance for a chancer to follow with no ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If barriers really reduce fraud. Why is the flexipass Scotrails most abused tickets. This is on routes such as bishopsbrigg - queen street which has barriers! The fraud rate was reported to be above 50%. Surely the barriers stop people reusing them considering they keep tickets and stamp their usage heading away from Glasgow!