Time to ditch third rail? Snow pains = No trains

[MrC]

South west trains havent had a problem with the 3rd rail on this round of snow.

Not true. All SR TOCs have had 3rd rail problems of some type or other, some worse than others.

 

[yorksrob]

We should also remember that back in the day, the Southern Region had a much more extensive fleet of diesel units available to help out (hooray for the thumpers!!)

But looking at previous posts on this thread, would it really be more costly to make modern trains draggable by the local diesel locomotives and to do something to these modern sliding doors (which everyone seems to think are so brilliant) so that they can be operated in winter than to change the traction system of the entire Southern Region?

Particularly since it's just been upgraded because some silly billy bought a load of trains that drew too much current

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I live next to the SWT line between Ewell West and Epsom; most trains have kept running and more or less to time on this line. Some gaps in the service, but not particularly serious ones ( apart from an hour in the down direction on Friday evening ).

I must say the arcing was pretty spectacular, especially last night when it started raining lightly while still below zero and there was some frozen rain on the conductor rail.

Also last night, the 22.09 Waterloo - Dorking 23.03 ( which is 23.30 Dorking - Epsom 23.45 return, then ecs to Wimbledon ) was formed of 8 x 450 vice 8 x 455; the 450s hardly arced at all whereas the 455s were more or less constantly arcing in a big way.

 

[ChampsRacing]

MrC i worked a Guildford and Chessington South Thursday and 3 kingston rounders yesterday and the only problems i encounted was a points failure at guildford and congestion of trains out of waterloo because the platforms was full we had no problems atall with the 3rd rail.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

South west trains havent had a problem with the 3rd rail on this round of snow. The delays came from frozen points or stock/crews displaced. While southern was fully suspended thursday southwest trains for most of the day was running within 15 minutes of time.

That's because large tracts of S.W.T. territory wasn't snowed in/on. I was amazed upon my return from Bath on Wednesday to pass virtually no snow all the way from Bath (I know it's FGW) to Clapham Junction via Reading, Wokingham Staines and Richmond.

 

[tbtc]

would it really be more costly to make modern trains draggable by the local diesel locomotives

I can't believe that we have certain trains that can't be dragged by other trains (even the fact that 222s can't drag 221s). It seems bizarre not to insist all new trains have a standard that will be compatible with other trains.

I just can't see why this mad situation was allowed to happen in the first place.

 

[ainsworth74]

I just can't see why this mad situation was allowed to happen in the first place.

Stanier and Gresley coupled (sorry ) with a lack of until recently any centralised rolling stock ordering going on. At least that is where I would lay the blame.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't believe that we have certain trains that can't be dragged by other trains (even the fact that 222s can't drag 221s). It seems bizarre not to insist all new trains have a standard that will be compatible with other trains.

I just can't see why this mad situation was allowed to happen in the first place.

Indeed. Seems ridiculous to me.

 

[O L Leigh]

And where are all these diesel locos suddenly going to materialise from...? The only diesel locos I've seen since the snows came were the four EWS Sheds down at Broxbourne for the RHTT's. Even if you could use these to drag units in passenger service you would still be looking at a vastly reduced timetable.

Even before privatisation and the introduction of modern units there wouldn't have been sufficient locos or diesel units to replace the electrically operated services. Say what you like, but nostalgia just ain't what it used to be. Going back to these times wouldn't suddenly save the service from this type of disruption.

O L Leigh

 

[tbtc]

Stanier and Gresley coupled (sorry ) with a lack of until recently any centralised rolling stock ordering going on. At least that is where I would lay the blame.

Agreed.

I'd much rather we built new trains with an eye on the future (e.g. ensuring new third rail EMUs have capacity for pantographs, ensuring one unit can haul another...)

We have been far too short term in the past

 

[jopsuk]

Well we have done one of the things you suggest- post privistation, the only 3rd rail EMUs built without a pantograph well and space for the associated power conversion equipment have been class 460- and even that is probably far from impossible to convert. There's even a few of SouthEastern's Electrostars fitted with pantographs despite having never been used for Dual-voltage services.

Class 170 were all built with Sprinter-compatible couplers. Class 171 can emergency-couple to class 377.

 

[Aictos]

And where are all these diesel locos suddenly going to materialise from...? The only diesel locos I've seen since the snows came were the four EWS Sheds down at Broxbourne for the RHTT's. Even if you could use these to drag units in passenger service you would still be looking at a vastly reduced timetable.

Even before privatisation and the introduction of modern units there wouldn't have been sufficient locos or diesel units to replace the electrically operated services. Say what you like, but nostalgia just ain't what it used to be. Going back to these times wouldn't suddenly save the service from this type of disruption.

O L Leigh

Indeed and the other thing as well is the resources are no longer available unlike they might have been in BR days by this I am referring of course to the fact that train crews only sign the routes and traction that they actually need to and sadly there won't be enough resources available to successfully work passenger trains.

Long gone are the days which train crews signed a variety of both traction and routes and in today's era won't be back anytime soon.

Even if the resources were available, what work are they going to be doing the other 9 months of the year not counting RHTT or Snow Clearance as it's not economic to have traction just stabled doing nothing or staff come to think of it.

As to the idea of ditching 3rd rail, I detest such a idea as 1. Costs would unreasonable bearing in mind the converting of the traction to AC plus all the wiring of the 3rd rail routes, 2. Both AC and DC power supplies have their pros and cons and 3. I rather see more of the UK electrified rather then replace existing electrified routes with another form of being electrified which is just common sense.

Lets take the SWT 159s routes in a ideal world when they do get electrified, I rather the government electrify them as a extension of the 3rd rail network hence being able to use 3rd rail stock over all SWT routes which would mean the 159s being able to be used elsewhere such as Brighton to Great Malvern or Cardiff to Exeter St Davids with FGW.

 

[Vulcan]

I only just saw this topic, but it made me laugh. Why do people start stupid topics that they know is going to wind everyone up?

3rd rail electric won't be replaced with overhead electric in our lifetimes, and when it is it won't be because of two particularly snowy winters in 2010.

 

[yorksrob]

And where are all these diesel locos suddenly going to materialise from...? The only diesel locos I've seen since the snows came were the four EWS Sheds down at Broxbourne for the RHTT's. Even if you could use these to drag units in passenger service you would still be looking at a vastly reduced timetable.

Even before privatisation and the introduction of modern units there wouldn't have been sufficient locos or diesel units to replace the electrically operated services. Say what you like, but nostalgia just ain't what it used to be. Going back to these times wouldn't suddenly save the service from this type of disruption.

O L Leigh

No, bur there would have been enough to operate a skeleton service. I'm pretty sure there are still loco's in places like Hither Green and Stewarts Lane etc.

As for route knowledge, whatever happenned to the idea of having a driver who knows the loco and a pilot who knows the route?

As far as other companies loco's are concerned, I'm sure even with our current system something can be put in place to allow loco's and Crews to be commandeered in emergencies. Not easy perhaps, but certainly easier than fanciful ideas of replacing the third rail as we know it.

 

[12CSVT]

Perhaps they should buy all those class 56s which DBS recently sent for scrap. They seemed to be the only things capable of moving trains on the Southern region in 1987 and 1991 during the worst of the snow. And how about a requirement for a standard coupling on all rolling stock (eg buckeye or tightlock).

 

[YorkshireBear]

Perhaps they should buy all those class 56s which DBS recently sent for scrap. They seemed to be the only things capable of moving trains on the Southern region in 1987 and 1991 during the worst of the snow. And how about a requirement for a standard coupling on all rolling stock (eg buckeye or tightlock).

to me a standard coupling is something obvious

 

[tbtc]

to me a standard coupling is something obvious

Can you imagine if Hornby built model trains where only certain types of rolling stock had couplers that were compatible with others?

 

[MrC]

to me a standard coupling is something obvious

No disagreement there if you also add in a multiple working standard, even if only a basic one. Then any kind of traction could assist another.

Trouble is those particular horses have long since bolted over the horizon.....

 

[YorkshireBear]

Can you imagine if Hornby built model trains where only certain types of rolling stock had couplers that were compatible with others?

You mean like when i run my bachman coachs with my honrby loco (or vice versa) and they derail on curves as they get in way of each other, bloody nightmare

No disagreement there if you also add in a multiple working standard, even if only a basic one. Then any kind of traction could assist another.

Trouble is those particular horses have long since bolted over the horizon.....

they need to come back then its one of the simplest solutions ever! i dont understand how someone ever thought it would work not like that

southern in fairness to them made their 170s compatible with 377's

but elsewear its a nightmare

 

[PaulLothian]

Out of curiosity, how do the (non-underground) stretches of the London Underground cope with icy conditions?

 

[jopsuk]

Poorly

 

[Juniper Driver]

This wouldn't happen anyway as it would cost far too much money.

 

[Aictos]

This wouldn't happen anyway as it would cost far too much money.

Which is why I believe it's a poor use of taxpayers money and why I oppose any suggestion backing it.

 

[jopsuk]

Aye- Putting overheads on the Southern* should only be done once pretty much the rest of the UK has been done. Having said that, I'd start with the Thameslink routes, Overground routes and the Southern Trains route from Milton Keynes- ie Dual Voltage routes first. Southwestern sector would be the last to go OHL (if there's any sense).

*as in the old region, not the TOC- oh, and Merseyrail for that matter

 

[yorksrob]

Aye- Putting overheads on the Southern* should only be done once pretty much the rest of the UK has been done. Having said that, I'd start with the Thameslink routes, Overground routes and the Southern Trains route from Milton Keynes- ie Dual Voltage routes first. Southwestern sector would be the last to go OHL (if there's any sense).

*as in the old region, not the TOC- oh, and Merseyrail for that matter

TBH I'd put it well behind re-opening some of our missing links (see other thread re lines to be re-opened).

 

[LE Greys]

TBH I'd put it well behind re-opening some of our missing links (see other thread re lines to be re-opened).

Or electrifying Oxted-Uckfield, Ashford-Hastings and Wokingham-Reigate

 

[yorksrob]

Or electrifying Oxted-Uckfield, Ashford-Hastings and Wokingham-Reigate

Indeed, or any of the other electrifications for that matter.

 

[tbtc]

Or electrifying Oxted-Uckfield, Ashford-Hastings and Wokingham-Reigate

They really need doing before long - seems strange that the money is there for Reading - Newbury yet can't be found for three bigger priorities!

 

[Mojo]

Out of curiosity, how do the (non-underground) stretches of the London Underground cope with icy conditions?

Very well and much better than National Rail. Looking at the report for last Thursday there were very few delays or problems caused by the bad weather aside from a few things freezing up and delays on the Jubilee line because of door problems caused by the freezing weather.

 

[MrC]

MrC i worked a Guildford and Chessington South Thursday and 3 kingston rounders yesterday and the only problems i encounted was a points failure at guildford and congestion of trains out of waterloo because the platforms was full we had no problems atall with the 3rd rail.

Sorry about the delay in replying - I didn't see your reply

Get someone to show you the control log for incidents a bit further West. Every so often when the right (wrong?) conditions occur there's problems with the 3rd rail icing up down there. This isn't new - even in the relatively few years I've been on the job I've seen fire damaged slammers and 442s, and units unable to move until the shoes melted through the ice. In fact it used to be a fairly regular winter sight to see a slightly blackened unit or two parked up at Fratton.