Time to ditch third rail? Snow pains = No trains

[185]

Just a wonder if our country should really continue bothering with third rail electrics.

After two years of almost total stoppages on third rail routes in the south & south east, isn't it time everything went to 25kV overheads?

Switzerland and Norway seem to manage well. Even with two foot of snow most of Northern England's non electrified region was running fine.

I know third rail is obviously a lot cheaper to install and operate but in the long run, the costs they create during bad weather are likely to be more.

 

[GB]

It would take a huge amount of money to convert all the lines that are DC over to AC.

 

[MCR247]

Surely that money could be better spent to electrify lines?

 

[Fincra5]

Whats the point for a few days of misery a year. It would increase rail fares even more then planned, all trains would have to be converted (etc).

People don't seem to understand that Switzerland and Norway have months of snow a year, not a few days, so there is a point to equiping all their trains to deal with snow.

Its just not worth it.

 

[westcoaster]

What about the up and under 3rd rail ala docklands light rail, it has a protective casing on top and the current collected from underneath.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Even with two foot of snow most of Northern England's non electrified region was running fine.

Eh?
Most?
Where was that, then?
Not the delayed bits or the cancelled bits obviously.

 

[Fincra5]

What about the up and under 3rd rail ala docklands light rail, it has a protective casing on top and the current collected from underneath.

That would still require vast modification to all trains and replacing all the normal 3rd rail, for that it would be cheaper to build ohle

 

[142094]

That would still require vast modification to all trains and replacing all the normal 3rd rail, for that it would be cheaper to build ohle

Could be done on a rolling basis when the 3rd rail is up for renewal anyway.

 

[atomicdanny]

Could be done on a rolling basis when the 3rd rail is up for renewal anyway.

Then there is an issue for every tunnel, bridge, footbridge, as well as probably viaducts? Since most of the first three would have to have a lot of work done to them just to raise them higher or the track lower in the case of tunnels?! (and that could be very costly!)

 

[generalvegitable]

why not just attach long heaters to the 3rd rail? I think that it may be cheaper than replacing it with OHLE

 

[YorkshireBear]

i know of 6 northern not electrified routes that have been cancelled over last few days

so not really a good point and the overhead has been suffereing too

 

[MrC]

why not just attach long heaters to the 3rd rail? I think that it may be cheaper than replacing it with OHLE

There's a couple of trial stretches of heated 3rd rail in known problem areas. I don't know whether it's permanently heated via the traction current or there's a separate heating circuit - I suspect the latter to avoid summer overheating. It'll be interesting to see what difference it makes.

 

[tbtc]

I think we should have Third Rail electrification in Yorkshire. It'd stop the little scrotes in Rotherham from pinching the copper cables (or at least act as a discouragement)!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think we should have Third Rail electrification in Yorkshire. It'd stop the little scrotes in Rotherham from pinching the copper cables (or at least act as a discouragement)!

ive said before snipers are best bet for that id happily be one

 

[yorksrob]

They could build third rail trains which can still operate when being pulled around by diesel locos - uknow like slammers

 

[jopsuk]

What about the up and under 3rd rail ala docklands light rail, it has a protective casing on top and the current collected from underneath.

The modifcations to fit the appropriate shoes would potentially be rather more complex than fitting the missing pantographs to the 375, 377, 450, 444 and 458 fleets. Reckon the 465s would be refittable (more work than those though) to be similar to 365s. Reckon the 455, 456, 442 fleets would be trickiest. The infrastructure upgrade would be rather cheaper than OHL admittedly.

Even the way used in other countries (such as the US) to protect from snow of having canopies over the conductor rail is not really practical with the geometry of UK stock and track.

It would be fantastic if we could have the Southern converted to OHL- but lets get all the other mainlines and major commuter networks done first.

 

[A0]

The modifcations to fit the appropriate shoes would potentially be rather more complex than fitting the missing pantographs to the 375, 377, 450, 444 and 458 fleets. Reckon the 465s would be refittable (more work than those though) to be similar to 365s. Reckon the 455, 456, 442 fleets would be trickiest. The infrastructure upgrade would be rather cheaper than OHL admittedly.

Even the way used in other countries (such as the US) to protect from snow of having canopies over the conductor rail is not really practical with the geometry of UK stock and track.

It would be fantastic if we could have the Southern converted to OHL- but lets get all the other mainlines and major commuter networks done first.

Surely the 455s and 456s wouldn't be that difficult? They're related to the 317s & 321s after all. What about taking the 508 trailers out of some of the 455s and replacing with panto cars from 314 / 315s when they're withdrawn?

442s would be difficult as there was never a similar ac design.

 

[Fincra5]

They could build third rail trains which can still operate when being pulled around by diesel locos - uknow like slammers

That would be useful for 442s All we need is some 33s

 

[yorksrob]

That would be useful for 442s All we need is some 33s

Yeah, you'll have to borrow them from Cumbria these days

 

[142094]

Then there is an issue for every tunnel, bridge, footbridge, as well as probably viaducts? Since most of the first three would have to have a lot of work done to them just to raise them higher or the track lower in the case of tunnels?! (and that could be very costly!)

Was more thinking of replacing the 3rd rail with the ones mentioned as used on the DLR, which would do away with the need for all of the above!

 

[furryfeet]

thinking of replacing the 3rd rail

the bury to man victoria 1200v DC electrics kept on going in the icy conditions, due to the side contact 3rd rail.

Missing a lesson from history perhaps ?

 

[Lampshade]

the bury to man victoria 1200v DC electrics kept on going in the icy conditions, due to the side contact 3rd rail.

Missing a lesson from history perhaps ?

The 504s would have kept going anyway, slammers were almost completely unaffected by snow and ice until they caught fire hock:

 

[O L Leigh]

That's the problem. It's not that the slammers were necessarily more tolerant of the ice but that their replacements have more safety overload protection to ensure that the unit doesn't fail due to fried components.

O L Leigh

 

[TGV]

That's the problem. It's not that the slammers were necessarily more tolerant of the ice but that their replacements have more safety overload protection to ensure that the unit doesn't fail due to fried components.

O L Leigh

Very true - and in common with most other stock in many system areas. Unfortunately, Joe Passenger doesn't care and Jim Newspaper still loves attacking railways especially when new stuff isn't "as good" as old stuff. Either way - we (the Railway) loses.

Still - as long as we keep the job going eh?

 

[Matt Taylor]

I think that 3rd rail electrification compares favourably to OHLE when you look at the big picture, OHLE does have a tendency to fall down rather too often in high winds.

SE and SN have not covered themselves in glory today but SWT implemented a revised revised service which has worked albeit with a few delays, 3rd rail is not necessarily a problem provided there is a robust 'Plan B'.

 

[O L Leigh]

I think that 3rd rail electrification compares favourably to OHLE when you look at the big picture, OHLE does have a tendency to fall down rather too often in high winds.

I don't agree.

The OLE doesn't get blown down, it gets knocked down by other things that have been blown down (e.g. trees). But if those trees hadn't ended up on the wires they'd have ended up across the tracks causing an obstruction and almost as disruption.

But such instances are isolated and do not affect the entire electrified network in the same way that freezing conditions paralyse every electrified route south of the Thames. We've had only one instance of an obstruction on the OLE this year, and that was just a branch resting on a return conductor wire. It caused some disruption during the evening peak, but it was dealt with inside two hours. I hardly see that as a poor comparison (even in the big picture).

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, but you don't work on the ECML where wires come down quite a lot. They might be caused by trains or trees, but it takes a lot longer to fix than shifting a tree off the track.

But, of course, if the ECML hadn't been wired on the cheap then it would probably be extremely reliable.

 

[O L Leigh]

Not forgetting also that the ECML is several hundred miles in length and crosses some very exposed landscape. That counts against it, not so much because it proves that OLE is not a robust electrification system, but because a single incident can cause disruption making it seem worse than perhaps it actually is.

But my point still stands. No single type of incident can paralyse the entire OLE network for days on end in the same way that a bit of cold weather plays havoc with the 3rd rail network.

O L Leigh

 

[TGV]

Agreed - during all this harsh weather, and including last winter - the OLE on the CTRL has been absolutely fine while the 3rd rail literally running right next to it has been rendered useless.

 

[ChampsRacing]

South west trains havent had a problem with the 3rd rail on this round of snow. The delays came from frozen points or stock/crews displaced. While southern was fully suspended thursday southwest trains for most of the day was running within 15 minutes of time.