Britain was built on its railways... now we can't even run them

[142094]

(I think telling you which side the doors are going to open on is actually a really useful thing to say, which we don't get here, so I really like that

Problem is that at many of the big stations you'll not be able to find out until you actually reach the station, or if you can see a theatre signal showing what platform the train is going into. In any case it might change at the last minute and you'd end up getting a few people standing by a door waiting for it to open on the wrong side. Of course I agree with you where the doors can only open on one side in any case (such as on the Tube etc) that there should be an announcement.

 

[Tin Miner]

Yes the rail industry is guilty as charged of crimes against the English language.

When I was young we got off trains, we didn't alight.... it would be much better English to say...'The next station which this train will be stopping at shortly...will be.....' or even to be completely anal, but technically correct....
`The next station, at which this train will be stopping is....' but grammatical debate about correct sentence construction really does sap the will to live, almost as much as three hours spent on a Voyager.

The people who write the scripts for on-train staff to read out are, in the words of Benjamin Disraeli, talking about William Gladstone 'A sophisticated rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity'

 

[me123]

No stuff about smoking, personal belongings, mind the gap, 'the door button is now activated' :cry: or other such nonsense. Are passengers in England really so different that they need all that, when those in Scotland clearly don 't ?

There is a lot more on there than that, although it's not played routinely.

They have pre-recorded announcements telling you what to do with luggage, to move right down the train in severe overcrowding (which is thankfully rare). There's one for "please retain your tickets as barrier checks are in operation at this station" that you sometimes hear. There's also one along the lines of "please remain with your luggage at all times. If you become aware of any unattended luggage, please report this to the on-train staff" that plays pretty much constantly on the North Clyde Line.

On the whole, though, they only tend to give you what you actually need, and I think the announcements are OK up here.

Now, on to the article. I would say from my (somewhat limited) experience that it's a load of rubbish. There are important points in there that are just exaggerated beyond belief. Some of the claims about cars being cheaper to run are rather dubious. And the claim that the railways are a "national disgrace" is seriously questionable.

What is important to me is that I can turn up at the station and rely on the train to get me where I need to go. I've been commuting to uni by rail for some time now, and it has never let me down. I've never been late due to the railways. And, before I went to uni, very rarely did the trains let me down then either. Reliability is good on the whole. I would say that the railways are more reliable than the private car for most of my journeys, and they are getting better.

And as for his little rant about his experiences... well, he's obviously been taking lessons from Richard Littlejohn.

Yes, there's a lot that can be improved. And you need only browse this site for five minutes to find that. The fares structure is in dire need of an overhaul. There are significant overcrowding issues in some areas. Some trains are simply not up to the job that's expected of them. But on the whole, it's rather remarkable that the punctuality figures are anywhere near what they are, and it's remarkable that the system we have transports so many people on a day-to-day basis.

It's so easy to moan about the railways. It almost slips into everyday conversation naturally. It's almost a British obsession to find every fault in the railways and blow it out of proportion. But the railways in the UK are good. Maybe not something to be proud of, but definitely not a "national disgrace".

 

[moonrakerz]

Yes, there's a lot that can be improved............... The fares structure is in dire need of an overhaul............ It's so easy to moan about the railways

Hmmmm !

The poor old fares "structure" comes in for so much criticism - much of it totally unjustified.
Agreed - it can be a bit convoluted - but why ? mostly to offer people bargain fares away from peak times. I have more than a sneaky feeling that "overhaul" means a flat rate fare (per mile ?). It certainly makes it easy to understand, but value for money ? most certainly not. I have yet to see a proposal that offers a workable alternative to the current system.

In general, though, I totally agree with me123, the railways don't do a bad job - with what they are given !

 

[Greenback]

Hmmmm !

The poor old fares "structure" comes in for so much criticism - much of it totally unjustified.
Agreed - it can be a bit convoluted - but why ? mostly to offer people bargain fares away from peak times. I have more than a sneaky feeling that "overhaul" means a flat rate fare (per mile ?). It certainly makes it easy to understand, but value for money ? most certainly not. I have yet to see a proposal that offers a workable alternative to the current system.

In general, though, I totally agree with me123, the railways don't do a bad job - with what they are given !

Apart from offering bargain fares at times, what is so good about our crazy system?

 

[Legzr1]

To all those bemoaning the constant announcements just think on - the railway has to dumb down to the lowest common demoninator.

Next time you're on a train just take a look at some of your fellow passengers - have a listen as people get on - I rest my case* M'Lord.














































*In the correct positions,overhead for light luggage,vestibule ends for heavier cases and coach X has extra....

 

[The Barlow Boy]

And most of the time, that is exactly what you get.

You're obviously not a regular on Southern Trains where overcrowding, late running and non working toilets are getting to be the norm - let alone inane announcements. Why do I need to know that, "this is coach two of this three coach train"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With regards excessively long automatic announcements, I think they way it is done in Germany is much more helpful:

Between stations:
"Nächste Haltestelle - Friedrichstraße. Aussteigen links."
"Next stop - Friedrichstraße. Doors open on the left."
(I think telling you which side the doors are going to open on is actually a really useful thing to say, which we don't get here, so I really like that!)

At station:
"Friedrichstraße. U6 nach Alt-Mariendorf."
"Friedrichstraße. U6 to Alt-Mariendorf."

When the doors are going to close:
"Zurückbleiben, bitte."
"Stand back/stand clear, please."
(accompanied by a hustle alarm)

Why can't we keep it simple like that here? I find our really wordy announcements really annoying. The worst is, though, when the guard insists on repeating exactly the same annoucement either before or after the auto-announcer does it! That is just the height of annoying, for me.

This is a particular favourite on Southern Trains!

 

[Capybara]

Apart from offering bargain fares at times, what is so good about our crazy system?

Indeed. The railway should be competing with the car and to do so people should be able to decide on a whim that they would like a day out somewhere and not find that if they want to do so by rail they will pay an exhorbitant fare which effectively subsidises those who are prepared to let the railway companies run their lives by booking their travel weeks in advance.

 

[Greenback]

I agree, and I usually take advantage of the cheapest fares as I cna normally plan my travel well ina dvance! I'd happily give up some of those cheapo fares for the ability to pay less when I can't paln my jounrey three months in advance!

 

[cle]

The Southern 'coach 3 or 4' thing is I think due to the fact that they have so many trains which split and join, at Haywards Heath usually I think (and maybe Three Bridges/Horsham too?) so it makes a difference if you're in coach 4 or coach 5 where you might end up!

 

[DarloRich]

All passengers need is a brief "the next station is xxxx" message shortly before arriving at a station (sorry.. arriving into a station stop).

We know where the train is going, because it said so on the platform indicator. We don't care what all the intermediate stations are. We know that smoking is not permitted in any part of the train (because it's the law). We know that an Advance ticket is only valid for a specific train. We know what sort of things the buffet car is likely to sell. We know that we should take our stuff with us when we leave the train. We know there might be a gap between the train and the platform. And, yes, we know that you're really sorry for the delay.

Yes WE do but the amount of people who don’t is shocking! If you ask the majority of people who rarely use the train you would see they have no idea where to get information from or even who to ask. Count the amount of times someone asks another person,
"excuse me is the train to xxxxx" or "does this train stop at xxxx"

 

[Greenback]

I am often shocked and appalled by the inability of many people to navigate themselves through their day to day activities!

In truth, I suspect the majority are only seeking reassurance. Therefore, I have no objections to announcements which inform everyone fo where the train is going to and where it calls along the way. As has been mentioned already, not everyone is travelling to the terminal station!

 

[DarloRich]

I agree entirley Greenback! Honestly, some people have no idea what train they are on. Recentley i got a Sunderland bound GC from KX. A lady was sat opposite me, the guard made at least 3 announcements wqith the ususal train information and then on the 4th (being the get of now if you dont want York, thirsk etc) she asked if it was the Leeds train! On finding it wanst she bolted for the platform! How many sources of infomation must she have passed to get on that train without realising it didnt go to Leeds? I was on the train at least 15 minutes before departue and she was already there!

 

[Oswyntail]

I am often shocked and appalled by the inability of many people to navigate themselves through their day to day activities!
...

...How many sources of infomation must she have passed to get on that train without realising it didnt go to Leeds? ...

I think the point is that, for a large portion of the travelling public (other than commuters) this is not part of their day to day activities. So they are anxious to a degree, some more than others, and this can lead to what appear to be stupid mistakes. And, from my long experience of Londoners, many of them would have difficulty placing Leeds relative to Sunderland - to them it's all "The North", which some think of as being about the size of Peterborough. All public-facing service industries should train their staff on the assumption that their customers are stressed and confused.

 

[Greenback]

I think the point is that, for a large portion of the travelling public (other than commuters) this is not part of their day to day activities. So they are anxious to a degree, some more than others, and this can lead to what appear to be stupid mistakes. And, from my long experience of Londoners, many of them would have difficulty placing Leeds relative to Sunderland - to them it's all "The North", which some think of as being about the size of Peterborough. All public-facing service industries should train their staff on the assumption that their customers are stressed and confused.

I don't mean just railways! For some people, when the layout of Tesco changes or they have to go via a different road appears to be enough to throw them into abjet confusion - any slight variation from their norm is sufficient to cause them problems! Look at some reactions when their usual ATM is not working, or even when the weather turns cold! God forbid some people may have to buy a different brand of biscuit!

 

[jon0844]

Of course I agree with you where the doors can only open on one side in any case (such as on the Tube etc) that there should be an announcement.

As there now is on the new Victoria Line trains. You see, London does eventually catch up with the rest of the world.

I mean, we've even got traffic lights with countdown timers for pedestrians now. Obviously, we're trialling them though. The fact the rest of the world has used them for years and know they work is immaterial..!

With regards to the article, there are a lot of good points but the credibility almost goes out of the window when talking about problem passengers and the state of trains. It makes you wonder if the author very rarely, if ever, uses the train and has just written the copy based on preconceptions and stereotypes.

Far better to concentrate on the real issues, like the sky high cost of maintenance that stunts growth, the ticketing farce (as was mentioned) and a selection of the issues raised on this forum that are real problems. Some **** listening to music/films out loud on a train isn't a reason to stop using the train - it's an argument to have better policing/enforcement and punishments for those who break the byelaws.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The Southern 'coach 3 or 4' thing is I think due to the fact that they have so many trains which split and join, at Haywards Heath usually I think (and maybe Three Bridges/Horsham too?) so it makes a difference if you're in coach 4 or coach 5 where you might end up!

Yes, agreed. But it's a bit silly when the three coaches are going from originating point to destination as a three coach train.

 

[daccer]

I only come back to the UK periodically and always try and use rail to get around. I simply dont think the journo who wrote this article has travelled enough to make the comments he has. For a network of 10,000km with 1.2 billion journeys per year it is easy to find fault is u are looking for it. The stats would suggest and the general experience I have had suggest things are not that bad. The system and model is being shook down and obviously there are problems but the experiences I have had in no way suggest anything but an improving service and network.

As a last aside I see many comments about how much the railways currently cost the Govt (and us) and that it is over the top. However I believe that when it is evened out over per head of population we are by no means big spenders on rail. Maybe more informed sources on here can illuminate this last fact better.

 

[moonrakerz]

Apart from offering bargain fares at times, what is so good about our crazy system?

Sorry old chap, but I don't have say "what is so good about" it - you are the one saying it is no good. Can you come up with a better system? Plenty of people say it is no good but NO ONE can offer anything better .......................without driving away a particular "revenue stream" (as the bean counters would have it)

Indeed. The railway should be competing with the car and to do so people should be able to decide on a whim that they would like a day out somewhere and not find that if they want to do so by rail they will pay an exhorbitant fare which effectively subsidises those who are prepared to let the railway companies run their lives by booking their travel weeks in advance.

Yet again, I'm afraid, a gross over generalisation/simplification. Sit down for 10 minutes and work out the TRUE costs of train against car, the train usually wins hands down, even when people are paying "full" fare! Even more so on a season ticket.
Since I did my first post this morning I have been to Bristol and back by train. I didn't book months in advance - the trip was "planned" at 8 this morning. It cost me £5.95 for a CDR it took half the time it would have taken in the car, it didn't cost me £2 an hour to park and I was able to drink a coffee and eat a lemon muffin on the way back - try doing that on the M32/M4/A4/A36 ! It was warm, clean and comfortable.
Quick comparison.
Rail. £5.95 on a railcard (£9 without) CDR. FULL fare (anytime) £9.70 ret.
Car: 56 miles at 52.48p per mile (AA figs on 1.6L Ford) £31.38. (inc parking for 1hr)

Many of the railway's problems are caused by too many people wanting to use the train not by people being frightened off by exorbitant fares.
Totally agree about the later point about people not having a clue about which train they are on and where it is going though..........
On my outward trip I watched passengers struggling to board a very busy 3 car FGW train - most of these people would have been going to Bath, or possibly Bristol - I waited a further 10 minutes and got into a Bristol bound 3 car SWT train with about 6 people in my car. The vast majority of people would not even have got on this almost empty train had it arrived first - it was a different colour, OUR trains are blue with pink doors !
Perhaps would-be rail passengers should be forced to undergo a "competency to travel" test before being allowed onto a station

The railways do have faults, but let's have some ideas on how to solve them not just pointless criticism. My biggest beef about my local trains? overcrowding, the answer to that is simple - more coaches, everyone knows that.
Your beef is the complicated fares structure - ideas please I have NO idea.

 

[At_traction]

With regards excessively long automatic announcements, I think they way it is done in Germany is much more helpful:
[...]
Why can't we keep it simple like that here?

Yes, but if they did these in three languages instead of one - as in some countries - the amount of jargon would seem rather overpowering, even without the more annoying announcements...

A lady was sat opposite me, the guard made at least 3 announcements wqith the ususal train information and then on the 4th (being the get of now if you dont want York, thirsk etc) she asked if it was the Leeds train! On finding it wanst she bolted for the platform!

She just wanted to be ABSOLUTELY certain - what if the announced information had changed all of a sudden...?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Sorry old chap, but I don't have say "what is so good about" it - you are the one saying it is no good. Can you come up with a better system? Plenty of people say it is no good but NO ONE can offer anything better .......................without driving away a particular "revenue stream" (as the bean counters would have it)



Yet again, I'm afraid, a gross over generalisation/simplification. Sit down for 10 minutes and work out the TRUE costs of train against car, the train usually wins hands down, even when people are paying "full" fare! Even more so on a season ticket.
Since I did my first post this morning I have been to Bristol and back by train. I didn't book months in advance - the trip was "planned" at 8 this morning. It cost me £5.95 for a CDR it took half the time it would have taken in the car, it didn't cost me £2 an hour to park and I was able to drink a coffee and eat a lemon muffin on the way back - try doing that on the M32/M4/A4/A36 ! It was warm, clean and comfortable.
Quick comparison.
Rail. £5.95 on a railcard (£9 without) CDR. FULL fare (anytime) £9.70 ret.
Car: 56 miles at 52.48p per mile (AA figs on 1.6L Ford) £31.38. (inc parking for 1hr)

Many of the railway's problems are caused by too many people wanting to use the train not by people being frightened off by exorbitant fares.
Totally agree about the later point about people not having a clue about which train they are on and where it is going though..........
On my outward trip I watched passengers struggling to board a very busy 3 car FGW train - most of these people would have been going to Bath, or possibly Bristol - I waited a further 10 minutes and got into a Bristol bound 3 car SWT train with about 6 people in my car. The vast majority of people would not even have got on this almost empty train had it arrived first - it was a different colour, OUR trains are blue with pink doors !
Perhaps would-be rail passengers should be forced to undergo a "competency to travel" test before being allowed onto a station

The railways do have faults, but let's have some ideas on how to solve them not just pointless criticism. My biggest beef about my local trains? overcrowding, the answer to that is simple - more coaches, everyone knows that.
Your beef is the complicated fares structure - ideas please I have NO idea.

Interesting set of fares and figures. Which station were you travelling from?

 

[Greenback]

Sorry old chap, but I don't have say "what is so good about" it - you are the one saying it is no good. Can you come up with a better system? Plenty of people say it is no good but NO ONE can offer anything better .......................without driving away a particular "revenue stream" (as the bean counters would have it)



Yet again, I'm afraid, a gross over generalisation/simplification. Sit down for 10 minutes and work out the TRUE costs of train against car, the train usually wins hands down, even when people are paying "full" fare! Even more so on a season ticket.
Since I did my first post this morning I have been to Bristol and back by train. I didn't book months in advance - the trip was "planned" at 8 this morning. It cost me £5.95 for a CDR it took half the time it would have taken in the car, it didn't cost me £2 an hour to park and I was able to drink a coffee and eat a lemon muffin on the way back - try doing that on the M32/M4/A4/A36 ! It was warm, clean and comfortable.
Quick comparison.
Rail. £5.95 on a railcard (£9 without) CDR. FULL fare (anytime) £9.70 ret.
Car: 56 miles at 52.48p per mile (AA figs on 1.6L Ford) £31.38. (inc parking for 1hr)

Many of the railway's problems are caused by too many people wanting to use the train not by people being frightened off by exorbitant fares.
Totally agree about the later point about people not having a clue about which train they are on and where it is going though..........
On my outward trip I watched passengers struggling to board a very busy 3 car FGW train - most of these people would have been going to Bath, or possibly Bristol - I waited a further 10 minutes and got into a Bristol bound 3 car SWT train with about 6 people in my car. The vast majority of people would not even have got on this almost empty train had it arrived first - it was a different colour, OUR trains are blue with pink doors !
Perhaps would-be rail passengers should be forced to undergo a "competency to travel" test before being allowed onto a station

The railways do have faults, but let's have some ideas on how to solve them not just pointless criticism. My biggest beef about my local trains? overcrowding, the answer to that is simple - more coaches, everyone knows that.
Your beef is the complicated fares structure - ideas please I have NO idea.

I'm sure we can all quote particular fares that offer very good value for money, as against those that don't, and vice versa. That is one of my main gripes - fares vary by route quite a lot. Some are far more expensive for the distance than others, and it seems to have little to do with facilities, frequency or comfort! It's more of a postcode lottery than the NHS!

For other examples of craziness, see many threads regarding HS1, Groupsave, the difficulty in finding out about restrictions, the range of restrictions that exist, the routeing guide and the description of 'any permitted' which is anything but, and many, many other affronts to logic and common sense that exist in the fares manuals!

Sadly, I don't have a magic wand to provide a definitive answer to put it all right without anyone suffering any detriment. But I think I am entitled to draw attention to the myriad of deficiencies that exist in the system!

Of course, having a railcard always helps to make rail travel more competitive. Unfortunately, large numbers of us outside of the South East and between the ages of 26 and 60 are unable to obtain one, which in itself is yet another flaw!!!

 

[moonrakerz]

Interesting set of fares and figures. Which station were you travelling from?

Warminster

 

[radamfi]

Car: 56 miles at 52.48p per mile (AA figs on 1.6L Ford) £31.38. (inc parking for 1hr)

Are you sure it is really 52.48p per mile if you already own a car and it is already taxed and insured?

Many of the railway's problems are caused by too many people wanting to use the train not by people being frightened off by exorbitant fares.

Even if it is misplaced, it cannot be denied that people are deterred from train travel because people PERCEIVE it to be more expensive than driving. The only way to get round that is to cap train fares at the price of petrol.

 

[EM2]

Are you sure it is really 52.48p per mile if you already own a car and it is already taxed and insured?

Quite possible, if you factor in a day's cost of 1/365th of tax, insurance, servicing and depreciation.

 

[radamfi]

Quite possible, if you factor in a day's cost of 1/365th of tax, insurance, servicing and depreciation.

But should you do that if you are going to own the car anyway? The comparison is only valid if you intend to dispose of the car. Only mileage based servicing and depreciation should be considered.

 

[Greenback]

I agree. W eown one car between the two of us. If we want to go and visit relatives in Swansea overnight, it would be £17.20 by train, as opposed to the costs we incur in the journey by car. On that basis, the car wins easily. If we didn;t have a carm, but were considering buying one, we would have to add up all the costs for a year in running a car, as against all the costs for a year using public transport.

Of course, it's not really as simple as that, since the car journey for our purposes is quicker and more direct than would ever be the case using bus and train.

So, a day trip for one from Warminster to Bath is very competitive by train, but an overnight trip of 15 miles for two is not!

 

[moonrakerz]

Are you sure it is really 52.48p per mile if you already own a car and it is already taxed and insured?

I'm afraid that you are falling into the usual trap of mis-calculating the true costs of a car.
Yes - it is already taxed/insured, but you paid out (up front !) hundreds of pounds for that.
Tax = £150
Insurance = £400 (say)

£550 a year for that alone; 10K miles a year - that 5.5p a mile before you even drive one yard. Don't forget depreciation, loss of interest on capital, RAC member ship, etc, etc............
Then the running costs alone on my 1.6 come to 20.5p per mile.

It is true (perversely ! when trying to get people to use their cars less) that the more miles you do, the less the cost per mile as the standing costs are spread more thinly.
But if I were to go from 10K per year to 30K per year my costs would still be 32.95p per mile.
If I were to go back to my 2.0 Mondeo Ghia, that would be 75.56p per mile !!!

I live about 300 yds from my local station - I am really starting to consider whether I really NEED a car now with all its costs.

EDIT:

Only mileage based servicing and depreciation should be considered.

Sorry, that is absolute rubbish ! You can't just select which costs you consider to be valid or not.

 

[Greenback]

You are very lucky indeed to live in an area where public transport is so good that a car is unnecessary for regular journeys to do the shopping, going to work, visiting friends and relations,a dn all the other things that we (reluctantly) need a car for!

 

[Zoe]

Comparing the cost of a car journey with advance fares is not a fair comparison. Yes it is true that there some absolute dirt cheap advance fares available that would beat the car any time but many people like the flexibility to decide on the day and these days the car wins most times unless you can be very specific about the exact times you will be travelling.