Britain was built on its railways... now we can't even run them

[Squaddie]

Fantastic piece in today's Observer.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/28/railways-high-speed-trains-transport

Selected quotes:

Our modern trains are cramped and garish. The whole network is characterised by inelegance...

The modernday British railway "customer" takes his seat (if he's lucky) at a place with a drop-down plastic table designed to be slightly too small to hold his laptop. There is no plug socket for the laptop, but unfortunately the man squeezed in alongside him has enough battery life to watch Quantum of Solace on DVD, which he does without the inconvenience of earphones. Meanwhile, the guard is shouting through a malfunctioning PA and is committed to using two words where one (or, better still, none) would do, hence "platform surfaces", "station stop", "personal belongings"...

The aim of the fares structure is to extract every last drop of revenue from the customer and the fact that it deters so many customers seems like a divine retribution for meanness...

And the first reader's comment begins:

You can make them as green as you want, but if they aren't on time then what's the point? They are already full of stinky and smelling of vomit, rubbish everywhere on the train and on either side of the tracks, dirty toilets and conductors who refuse to take control of trains and make them more pleasant places to be...

Well worth a read.

(Incidentally, I once raised the issue of announcements with FGW, asking why there was barely a five-minute period in the entire journey when the guard was not shouting something over the PA. "Welcome on board... we'll be stopping at... read the safety instructions... fully licensed bar with a full range of drinks... we are now approaching... change here for... welcome on board..." They told me it's what the customer wants.)

 

[tbtc]

the man squeezed in alongside him has enough battery life to watch Quantum of Solace on DVD

Clearly this is the fault of the railways and an everyday occurrence up and down the country (and not just a bitter journalist complaining about something which happened to him/her once). I hope there will be something in future franchise terms to stop this happening again

The aim of the fares structure is to extract every last drop of revenue from the customer and the fact that it deters so many customers seems like a divine retribution for meanness...

If the fare structure "deters so many" then why are the railways busier now than at any time in the last couple of generations? Why are so many trains so busy when millions of people are deterred? Could it be that (despite everything else) the railways are popular and do offer people some value for money? Just a thought

 

[Royston Vasey]

Pfft. More doom mongering and naysaying from the media and no doubt posters on here. The vast majority of passengers are satisifed, we may pay a bit much for our trains, they could do with investment and they may not be perfect, but they are pretty efficient and pretty reliable IMHO. This "enthusiasts" forum is full of people who do nothing but moan about their hobby!! Nothing against the OP, thanks for quoting the article, but you suspect that the author of such an article bases his piece on one bad journey on his one or two trips a year, like most newspaper articles on rail.

 

[ainsworth74]

You know just once rather than an article in the press bemoaning our 'third world' like railway network entirely made up of 'cattle cars' it would be nice to see one complimenting the fact we run more trains than ever before, more reliably and quicker than before, with the vast majority of customers satisfied with their journey. But of course actually saying things are on the whole pretty good wouldn't make good copy would it... :roll:

 

[Ferret]

Fantastic piece in today's Observer.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/28/railways-high-speed-trains-transport

Selected quotes:



And the first reader's comment begins:



Well worth a read.

(Incidentally, I once raised the issue of announcements with FGW, asking why there was barely a five-minute period in the entire journey when the guard was not shouting something over the PA. "Welcome on board... we'll be stopping at... read the safety instructions... fully licensed bar with a full range of drinks... we are now approaching... change here for... welcome on board..." They told me it's what the customer wants.)

An interesting piece in parts, but I find the statistics about the cost of road travel decreasing in real terms to be a little suspect!!! Cars - more expensive than in 1997? I bought my first one in 2002. The one I bought in 2009 was a hell of a lot more expensive, even taking into account inflation. Petrol in 1997 - 80p a litre, if that? Petrol now - need to consult my bank manager every time I fill up. Have we really had 50%-worth of inflation since 1997?! Road tax in 1997 compared to now? This I suspect hasn't increased a great deal - perhaps this is what the article-writer is referring to? I find that to be a rather suspect piece of journalism to be honest!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There is actually very, very little (in the bigger picture) wrong with our network. It is expansive (how many other countries have stations stretching to all points of the compass?), service frequency is excellent (our InterCity service levels are the highest in Western Europe, easily), most stock is satisfactory, in most cases good, and most stations are clean and well-kept.

I suppose it is the minority of stations (Wakefield Kirkgate), rolling stock (142s), overcrowding (especially on commuter networks) and staff that give our network a bad name, along with things like our complex fare system, but overall, Britain's railways are not that poor.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

It's annoying when announcements are made every time the train approaches a station, or leaves a station, or when new passengers get on. Why do they need to tell new passengers what's going on?

Dont these people know that I dont need to be told? I'm already on the train!

It's political correctness gone mad!

 

[Ferret]

It's annoying when announcements are made every time the train approaches a station, or leaves a station, or when new passengers get on. Why do they need to tell new passengers what's going on?

Dont these people know that I dont need to be told? I'm already on the train!

It's political correctness gone mad!

It's more to do with TOCs trying to comply with Disability Legislation!

 

[Lampshade]

I fully appreciate that but it's annoying as hell, the announcements on TPE are nothing short of ridiculous. There's providing information and there's taking the mick.

 

[tbtc]

I fully appreciate that but it's annoying as hell, the announcements on TPE are nothing short of ridiculous. There's providing information and there's taking the mick.

In fairness to TPE, the clear voice is good, as she clearly pronounced Closed Circuit Television (and not the "Close Circuit..." a lot of people say)

Annoying on a 100mph journey, but reassuring for some passengers, to be fair

 

[Squaddie]

It's annoying when announcements are made every time the train approaches a station, or leaves a station, or when new passengers get on. Why do they need to tell new passengers what's going on?

Dont these people know that I dont need to be told? I'm already on the train!

All passengers need is a brief "the next station is xxxx" message shortly before arriving at a station (sorry.. arriving into a station stop).

We know where the train is going, because it said so on the platform indicator. We don't care what all the intermediate stations are. We know that smoking is not permitted in any part of the train (because it's the law). We know that an Advance ticket is only valid for a specific train. We know what sort of things the buffet car is likely to sell. We know that we should take our stuff with us when we leave the train. We know there might be a gap between the train and the platform. And, yes, we know that you're really sorry for the delay.

 

[tbtc]

All passengers need is a brief "the next station is xxxx" message shortly before arriving at a station (sorry.. arriving into a station stop).

We know where the train is going, because it said so on the platform indicator. We don't care what all the intermediate stations are. We know that smoking is not permitted in any part of the train (because it's the law). We know that an Advance ticket is only valid for a specific train. We know what sort of things the buffet car is likely to sell. We know that we should take our stuff with us when we leave the train. We know there might be a gap between the train and the platform. And, yes, we know that you're really sorry for the delay.

Some of the announcements are to cover their backs - e.g. if anyone claims not to be aware of the rules on smoking/ advanced tickets

Some people seek the reassurance of being on the "right" train (if having boarded at a busy station) or that they've not missed the station they meant to get off at.

 

[EM2]

All passengers need is a brief "the next station is xxxx" message shortly before arriving at a station (sorry.. arriving into a station stop).

Because sometimes, trains stop when they're NOT at a station.

We know where the train is going, because it said so on the platform indicator.

And what if it's faulty? Or you're visually impaired?

We don't care what all the intermediate stations are.

So you only ever travel terminus to terminus?

We know that smoking is not permitted in any part of the train (because it's the law).

Lots of things are against the law but it doesn't stop people doing them

We know that an Advance ticket is only valid for a specific train.

*You* might, but you only have to read some of the posts here from station and revenue staff to realise that not everybody does.

We know what sort of things the buffet car is likely to sell.

I'll give you that one...

We know that we should take our stuff with us when we leave the train.

Yet people still leave stuff behind.

We know there might be a gap between the train and the platform

And there are still accidents when people don't take care

And, yes, we know that you're really sorry for the delay.

And that's a bad thing is it?

 

[Mojo]

Yet people still leave stuff behind.

And there are still accidents when people don't take care

In which case announcements wouldn't help anyway, so they might as well be scrapped.

One that really annoys me though, is "please change here for ______." As if I'm going to get on a random train and only get off when I'm told to.

 

[imagination]

An interesting piece in parts, but I find the statistics about the cost of road travel decreasing in real terms to be a little suspect!!! Cars - more expensive than in 1997? I bought my first one in 2002. The one I bought in 2009 was a hell of a lot more expensive, even taking into account inflation. Petrol in 1997 - 80p a litre, if that? Petrol now - need to consult my bank manager every time I fill up. Have we really had 50%-worth of inflation since 1997?! Road tax in 1997 compared to now? This I suspect hasn't increased a great deal - perhaps this is what the article-writer is referring to? I find that to be a rather suspect piece of journalism to be honest!

A 50% rise since 1997 would be less than 3% per year, so yes we have. Car transport costs have dropped in real terms, but only by a very small amount. Bear in mind that this does not take into account changes in the types of car that people are buying - it compares like-for-like in terms of purchase costs. People these days generally put in far more gadgets than they used to, which pushes up the actual prices they pay.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

All passengers need is a brief "the next station is xxxx" message shortly before arriving at a station (sorry.. arriving into a station stop).

We know where the train is going, because it said so on the platform indicator. We don't care what all the intermediate stations are. We know that smoking is not permitted in any part of the train (because it's the law). We know that an Advance ticket is only valid for a specific train. We know what sort of things the buffet car is likely to sell. We know that we should take our stuff with us when we leave the train. We know there might be a gap between the train and the platform. And, yes, we know that you're really sorry for the delay.

Apart from the blind people who cant see the monitors. Or the foreigners who've never been on that train before. People rarely understand the T&C's of their tickets.

As for the rest... you really overestimate the mental capacity of the travelling public. The railway has been nothing short of a glorified babysitting service for years.

In which case announcements wouldn't help anyway, so they might as well be scrapped.

One that really annoys me though, is "please change here for ______." As if I'm going to get on a random train and only get off when I'm told to.

But TOC's have to be proactive in the effort to prevent accidents from occurring. It's a reasonable measure.

As for interchange announcements... again, you're assuming that the people using the service are entirely familiar with it. Lets be honest, most passengers have absolutely no idea what they're doing even on their local lines.

 

[nedchester]

Apart from the blind people who cant see the monitors. Or the foreigners who've never been on that train before. People rarely understand the T&C's of their tickets.

As for the rest... you really overestimate the mental capacity of the travelling public. The railway has been nothing short of a glorified babysitting service for years.



But TOC's have to be proactive in the effort to prevent accidents from occurring. It's a reasonable measure.

As for interchange announcements... again, you're assuming that the people using the service are entirely familiar with it. Lets be honest, most passengers have absolutely no idea what they're doing even on their local lines.

Well make the T&Cs for tickets easier to understand and stop them being so complicated.

The TOCs don't have to be proactive they're just frightened of being sued which is not a good reason for endless announcements - all part of nanny state UK.

The UK may have some nice shiny trains but they've got too few carriages, they are too expensive and in many cases uncomfortable. Yes there have been improvements but look across in Europe for real improvements and what a modern railway network should be like.

 

[Mojo]

As for interchange announcements... again, you're assuming that the people using the service are entirely familiar with it. Lets be honest, most passengers have absolutely no idea what they're doing even on their local lines.

That may be, but I cannot believe that anyone, anywhere, at any time, gets on a random train to go somewhere and only gets off when they are told where to change for. You would find out somewhere where to change and what train to get on, and get an itinerary.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I adore the notion that not wanting customers to wander around cutting their faces off and subsequently causing further disruption is part of a "nanny state".

Which is why I simply refuse to use smoke detectors in my house. BACK OFF, BROWN! I GOT A NOSE OF MY OWN!


And yes, three or four car sets in some cases can indeed be too few. TOC's would love to run infinity car trains, or perhaps more reasonably, six car sets in every instance, but unfortunately, the railways are only "overcrowded" for a few hours a day. And even if the capacity did increase, it would only be a matter of time until that too was insufficient.

 

[radamfi]

Look at:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/modal/indices/tsgb0120.xls

From 1999 to 2009:

RPI up 29%
Purchase of vehicle down 29%
Maintenance up 69%
Petrol & oil up 42%
Tax & insurance up 47%

All motor costs up 11%

By comparison, rail up 43% and bus & coach up 58%

 

[Sadsmileyface]

That may be, but I cannot believe that anyone, anywhere, at any time, gets on a random train to go somewhere and only gets off when they are told where to change for. You would find out somewhere where to change and what train to get on, and get an itinerary.

No, but it's reassuring. As I said before, any tourists or foreign travellers who might not even speak or read English, might just be able to pick up that they should get off at Suchinsuch for services to Someplace Central.

 

[Greenback]

Well make the T&Cs for tickets easier to understand and stop them being so complicated.

The TOCs don't have to be proactive they're just frightened of being sued which is not a good reason for endless announcements - all part of nanny state UK.

The UK may have some nice shiny trains but they've got too few carriages, they are too expensive and in many cases uncomfortable. Yes there have been improvements but look across in Europe for real improvements and what a modern railway network should be like.

Yes, thanks to the method of privatisation.

Yes, we have followed the US litigation culture in this respect.

Yes, I remember when railway adverts used to focus on the space and comfort of the train compared to its competitors.

That's a good list showing where definite improvements can be made in the UK rail system. However, I don't subscribe to the popular media view either! It's not as bad as they like to make out!

 

[Sadsmileyface]

If I had my way, I'd slash capacity to a fraction of its current state, and run all trains without seats, heating or lighting. And there wouldn't be a timetable.

But I'd run a freephone telephone complaints line.

That nobody ever listens to.


Just out of pure spite.

 

[moonrakerz]

It's more to do with TOCs trying to comply with Disability Legislation!

I'm not sure about that - just a handy excuse !

FGW's HSTs pound your ears to death with constant repetition of the same inane announcements, whereas my local (FGW) 158s just announce "next stop is....."

 

[At_traction]

We know where the train is going, because it said so on the platform indicator. We don't care what all the intermediate stations are.

Yes, but the casual traveller who isn't yet jaded by the everyday grind of having to commute by train or has otherwise memorised the local quail might be interested to know that his/her stop is next. The absolutely most basic service for a TOC to provide on board.
*rant off*

 

[tbtc]

Yes, but the casual traveller who isn't yet jaded by the everyday grind of having to commute by train or has otherwise memorised the local quail might be interested to know that his/her stop is next. The absolutely most basic service for a TOC to provide on board.
*rant off*

That's it.

Seasoned flyers know the rules about emergency exist and "no smoking in the toilets" but the announcements still get repeated - it might be someone's first flight after all.

Better an extra announcement or two on a train than someone not knowing their stop - can you imagine the headlines if Doris (age 82) didn't get off her Cross Country train at Arbroath because there was no announcement and only realised four hours later...

...its called Customer Service.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

All we want is a train that reliably runs to a close approximation of it's booked time, is clean and warm, has working toilets (if fitted), is not stupidly overcrowded (we can endure standing for a little while/way), has a conductor who'll deal with any rowdies and who'll tell us what is happening and keep us updated if and when it all goes wrong.
Is that so difficult? It's not much to ask after paying the highest rail fares in Europe.

 

[sheff1]

On my recent travels in Scotland, the basic announcements consisted simply of:

* Initially - 'This is the train to xxx, the next stop is xxx'.

* Then, just before a stop - 'We are now approaching xxx'.

* At the stop - 'This is xxx'; followed by the first announcement above ... and so on.

No stuff about smoking, personal belongings, mind the gap, 'the door button is now activated' :cry: or other such nonsense. Are passengers in England really so different that they need all that, when those in Scotland clearly don 't ?

 

[EM2]

All we want is a train that reliably runs to a close approximation of it's booked time, is clean and warm, has working toilets (if fitted), is not stupidly overcrowded (we can endure standing for a little while/way), has a conductor who'll deal with any rowdies and who'll tell us what is happening and keep us updated if and when it all goes wrong.
Is that so difficult? It's not much to ask after paying the highest rail fares in Europe.

And most of the time, that is exactly what you get.

 

[jd]

With regards excessively long automatic announcements, I think they way it is done in Germany is much more helpful:

Between stations:
"Nächste Haltestelle - Friedrichstraße. Aussteigen links."
"Next stop - Friedrichstraße. Doors open on the left."
(I think telling you which side the doors are going to open on is actually a really useful thing to say, which we don't get here, so I really like that!)

At station:
"Friedrichstraße. U6 nach Alt-Mariendorf."
"Friedrichstraße. U6 to Alt-Mariendorf."

When the doors are going to close:
"Zurückbleiben, bitte."
"Stand back/stand clear, please."
(accompanied by a hustle alarm)

Why can't we keep it simple like that here? I find our really wordy announcements really annoying. The worst is, though, when the guard insists on repeating exactly the same annoucement either before or after the auto-announcer does it! That is just the height of annoying, for me.