Grand Central submits Blackpool-London Euston to ORR for 2012

[rail-britain]

the 67's are almost all acounted for

By the time the service would be approved for commencement of operation, May 2012, many of the require Class 67 locos would be available
Two currently on FSR duties
Two currently on FGW duties

Three locos would be used each day, plus one spare
Fifteen coaches, so at least four spare would be required
They would also be permitted to operate Class 180 or HST

 

[swt_passenger]

They would also be permitted to operate Class 180...

Completely academic though because there are none available, which is why various proposals for the ECML using 180s have already been kicked into touch by ORR, on DfT's instructions.

 

[ukrob]

They would also be permitted to operate Class 180 or HST

Surely they would be permitted to use whatever they choose and whatever is available provided it is cleared for the route.

Last time I checked, HSTs and 180s were not available.

 

[northwichcat]

I recall about 20 years ago, that a company First North West? ran trains for a while from Blackpool but were not allowed to stop at Preston.
That was fine as they did stop at my local station Euxton! Shame no mention of stopping here on the proposed new service.

Will Virgin be able to block the proposal to stop at Preston? If so, is the proposal still viable?

North Western Trains used to run 158 operated Blackpool-Londons. They were to move to Class 180 operation after First group bought out the franchise and had placed the Class 175 order for North West regionals but Virgin insisted on competition protection but the 180s were still ordered and went to First Great Western instead.
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is there any point when preston has enough trains to london anyway, so blackpool users can just change once?

also hartford? crewe..

How often do you make journeys when you change trains? I've experienced problems where a delay of under 15 minutes to one service adds an hour to my overall journey time. If that happens to someone a few times it's puts them off using the train or makes them want to drive to a station where they can get a direct train.

When a Liverpool-London service used to do a Hartford call at around 6am it got over 100 passengers using the service as many Cheshire business people drove to Hartford to catch that train. Virgin, however, removed Hartford from it's calling points as they didn't see the point of having intercity calling points at both Runcorn and Hartford.
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Completely academic though because there are none available, which is why various proposals for the ECML using 180s have already been kicked into touch by ORR, on DfT's instructions.

So have the 5 that East Coast don't want actually been allocated to an operator?

Grand Central do have 180s as it stands so if they get new paths they could use the existing 180s on the new paths if they decided that it was the best option.
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Whilst it could certainly increase delays in theory, none of these open access operators would be using the fast lines as they are not operated by 125mph tilt stock.

GNWR (Alliance Rail) are proposing 140mph Polaris' which would be dual powered and tilting enabled, so if anything provided they get built they'd be an improvement on the Pendolinos. Grand Central have looked at ordering the same type of train but whether they ever order them is another matter.

 

[ukrob]

Whilst it could certainly increase delays in theory, none of these open access operators would be using the fast lines as they are not operated by 125mph tilt stock.

GNWR (Alliance Rail) are proposing 140mph Polaris' which would be dual powered and tilting enabled, so if anything provided they get built they'd be an improvement on the Pendolinos. Grand Central have looked at ordering the same type of train but whether they ever order them is another matter.

They won't be running these Polaris trains which have been talked about for many years in 2012 though - if ever.

 

[rail-britain]

Surely they would be permitted to use whatever they choose and whatever is available provided it is cleared for the route.

Last time I checked, HSTs and 180s were not available.

Although not currently available, they may be by 2012
This would allow them to swap trains between their existing routes, thus have one common fleet and reduce the amount of spares
So if a Class 67 fails then they can arrange for their HST or 180 to cover temporarily

Their application allows this, hence why it mentions the standard safety case plus the existing one for HST and Class 180, plus provision for these to be used to ensure service security

 

[EWS 58038]

Wasn't Grand Central planning to order some Polaris sets to replace the 180's and 43's?
I know Yoghurt Rail does, but I believe I once heared GC was exploring the option to lease these trains as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Wasn't Grand Central planning to order some Polaris sets to replace the 180's and 43's?
I know Yoghurt Rail does, but I believe I once heared GC was exploring the option to lease these trains as well.

Yes. Read the above posts.

 

[TDK]

By the time the service would be approved for commencement of operation, May 2012, many of the require Class 67 locos would be available
Two currently on FSR duties
Two currently on FGW duties

Three locos would be used each day, plus one spare
Fifteen coaches, so at least four spare would be required
They would also be permitted to operate Class 180 or HST

By 2012 I would imagine Chiltern will have a few 67's

 

[MCR247]

Some people on here think that they will just use the exWSMR stock as they will be gone by then

I hope not

 

[tbtc]

I would be a lot more supportive of this Blackpool bid if it meant Polaris units were used for all GC routes, as the HSTs/ 180s could be better deployed elsewhere

 

[Aictos]

IF GC placed a order of Polaris units to operate the Blackpools, Sunderlands and Bradfords cascading the 180s and HSTs elsewhere then where do you suggest the cascaded stock goes?

 

[tbtc]

IF GC placed a order of Polaris units to operate the Blackpools, Sunderlands and Bradfords cascading the 180s and HSTs elsewhere then where do you suggest the cascaded stock goes?

180s can't be used on XC due to tunnels outside Birmingham (if I understand correctly), but I'd be tempted to give XC the HSTs* and the ten spare 180s (i.e. the GC ones plus the five "NXEC" ones which will be free) to FGW for the Cardiff - Bristol - Portsmouth service (needs about eight units).

This would free up a dozen 158s (based on them being three coaches), which could then be shared between EMT/ Northern/ ATW/ FGW to improve capacity there too.

No point in using the 180s on Manchester - WCML - Scotland or Edinburgh - Falkirk - Glasgow (which are getting wired). Manchester Airport - Leeds - Newcastle would be good too (needs seven units), although the interworking at Manchester Airport may be messed up...

* - and force them to actually use them!

 

[Aictos]

What about Hull Trains as well, surely they are just as suitable as Grand Central for any Polaris orders which means instead of just freeing up the GC and EC 180s, you can cascade the entire fleet to free up 158s elsewhere etc...

 

[swt_passenger]

So have the 5 that East Coast don't want actually been allocated to an operator?

As stated by ORR in the latest ECML capacity report, back in August:

"DfT pointed out that the only suitable 125 mph rolling stock (which was to have been used for the Lincoln services) would be redeployed elsewhere on franchised services and would not therefore be available for use on the ECML."

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/ecml-orr-letter-110810.pdf

GNWR (Alliance Rail) are proposing 140mph Polaris' which would be dual powered and tilting enabled, so if anything provided they get built they'd be an improvement on the Pendolinos.

Talk is cheap. They will only ever run at 125 mph unless GC also upgrade a particular line's signalling system.

 

[tbtc]

What about Hull Trains as well, surely they are just as suitable as Grand Central for any Polaris orders which means instead of just freeing up the GC and EC 180s, you can cascade the entire fleet to free up 158s elsewhere etc...

That'd be ideal.

If we are going to have Polaris units then we'd be better having a decent sized fleet of them, so I'd rather they were ordered for other suitable routes too...

...plus leaving fifteen spare 180s would allow for a more creative use of them

 

[EWS 58038]

They never said they were going to run 140 mph services. All Yoghurt Rail said was that they were about to lease trains wich were capable of doing so.

 

[anthony263]

I am sure i read somewhere where the managing director of the CSRE said that a polaris could be coming to the UK in 2012 for trials, but didnt say who was going to operate with . I think it was rail magazine back in october sometime

 

[Snapper]

Completely academic though because there are none available, which is why various proposals for the ECML using 180s have already been kicked into touch by ORR, on DfT's instructions.

Dft don't have that power over ORR. For example, DfT have also bid for WCML paths for franchised services to to Blackpool. ORR make the decision on who gets those paths, not DfT.

DfT do have the power over stock allocations to franchises, but you've confused two different issues.
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Whilst it could certainly increase delays in theory, none of these open access operators would be using the fast lines as they are not operated by 125mph tilt stock.

If you look at GCs Section 17 bid, their trains would be swapping between the Fast and Slow lines.

 

[ukrob]

If you look at GCs Section 17 bid, their trains would be swapping between the Fast and Slow lines.

Isn't that what they want to do opposed to what they can do?

 

[Simon Poole]

Instead of using Class 67's for Blackpool to London, what about Class 37's? or any stored locos that are not in service?

 

[ukrob]

I think that is a wet dream for some people more than something that would happen in a thousand years.

 

[GNERman]

Instead of using Class 67's for Blackpool to London, what about Class 37's? or any stored locos that are not in service?

67's are the only locomotives available that can do the speeds that the service and paths need, and they're much more reliable...

 

[lm321412]

Instead of using Class 67's for Blackpool to London, what about Class 37's? or any stored locos that are not in service?

Yeah, we'll have the slow old Class 37s blocking up the WCML daily whilst we await another loco to take it to the nearest station...

 

[Aictos]

Yeah, we'll have the slow old Class 37s blocking up the WCML daily whilst we await another loco to take it to the nearest station...

Mmmm, now while the 37s would have been fine for Bristol to Weymouth, Taunton to Cardiff, Bristol to Paighton or Norwich to Great Yarmouth which have all seen loco hauled this year, I don't believe they would be ideal for use on Blackpool to London especially considering the route concerned where 90s or 67s would be a far better choice.

Thinking of putting 37s on these workings to me is akin to putting 125mph stock on services which are suitable to 75mph stock, it is just daft - note I understand the only reason why Northern have the 180s on loan is for the extra capacity and not for the higher speed.

 

[The Planner]

If you look at GCs Section 17 bid, their trains would be swapping between the Fast and Slow lines.

Inbetween the current level of service ?? should be fun...

 

[lm321412]

reason why Northern have the 180s on loan is for the extra capacity and not for the higher speed.

Yeah it was a case of them or nothing apparently :roll:

 

[dave59]

Mmmm, now while the 37s would have been fine for Bristol to Weymouth, Taunton to Cardiff, Bristol to Paighton or Norwich to Great Yarmouth which have all seen loco hauled this year, I don't believe they would be ideal for use on Blackpool to London especially considering the route concerned where 90s or 67s would be a far better choice. .

Don't know why anyone is suggesting 67's. 90's should be the traction on the main line with any old vintage deisel shunting the trains the last few low speed miles to Blackpool.

 

[GNERman]

but that would involve coupling and uncoupling at preston, taking time, and leasing more than one loco, which would be uneconomically viable...

 

[ukrob]

but that would involve coupling and uncoupling at preston, taking time, and leasing more than one loco, which would be uneconomically viable...

Don't let the facts get in the way