Grand Central submits Blackpool-London Euston to ORR for 2012

[Pumbaa]

Another daft idea. The biggest problem so far I can see us the northbound path. It's written into the current timetable that xx33 off Euston is the second Liverpool service, which runs sometime in peaks.

VT want the second Liv service per hour, DfT want a full hourly Glasgow service. I don't know if they decided both were possible with the new units on order.

Either way, it wouldn't happen without going up the slows from Euston, it'll get caught up by Watford by the xx40 Manchester so no use!

 

[TDK]

My only question is where are they going to get the mk3 coaches from?

Cargo D for the Mk3's, it's not the Mk 3's that the problem, it's the converted 67's and the DVT's, there are not any DVT's available and the 67's are almost all acounted for, I honestly think it's a pipe dream using the stock they mention

 

[wensley]

Overall sounds like a reasonable plan. Stations look good and timings reasonable. However, there could be some issues with locos and stock.

I hope it comes off for GC - it's a big step to move onto the WCML having previously focussed and worked trains on the ECML

 

[PhilipW]

I hope the servive will resort to Electric traction as soon as the wires are up between Preston and Blackpool.
I don't think we really want another all diesel service on an all electrified route.

 

[sarniasiren]

I recall about 20 years ago, that a company First North West? ran trains for a while from Blackpool but were not allowed to stop at Preston.
That was fine as they did stop at my local station Euxton! Shame no mention of stopping here on the proposed new service.

Will Virgin be able to block the proposal to stop at Preston? If so, is the proposal still viable?

 

[imagination]

20 years ago would have been British Rail...

 

[matt]

Cargo D for the Mk3's, it's not the Mk 3's that the problem, it's the converted 67's and the DVT's, there are not any DVT's available and the 67's are almost all acounted for, I honestly think it's a pipe dream using the stock they mention

Would Cargo-D have enough mark 3s to provide for 5 coach rakes? Out of the other spare mark 3s I believe DB regio have purchased quite a few for Chiltern Railways.

 

[TDK]

Would Cargo-D have enough mark 3s to provide for 5 coach rakes? Out of the other spare mark 3s I believe DB regio have purchased quite a few for Chiltern Railways.

Cargo D have quite a few Mk 3's as for Chiltern I wouldimagine they have a few also,it's the DVT's that are the problem, The best way of actually doing this would be to convert class 90's to operate with the class 67 as the DVT's do now as top and tail, then you have both electric traction for under the wires and diesel for elsewhere. The DVT is a non engined class 90 after all

 

[me123]

I quite like the plan, to be honest:

• It improves the Nuneaton-London service, which has been all but abandoned by Virgin.
• It links the popular Blackpool branch to London.
• It adds a new stop at Hartford

It's not just going to shadow the existing WCML as I would have thought. It's actually going to serve more places on the way. The only issue now is working it into the timetable...

 

[sprinterguy]

Would Cargo-D have enough mark 3s to provide for 5 coach rakes? Out of the other spare mark 3s I believe DB regio have purchased quite a few for Chiltern Railways

Ah so that's why DB own so many mark 3s. Hadn't though about that, figures.

I hope Grand Central can improve the reliability of their existing London to Bradford/Sunderland services before they start running Euston to Blackpool trains. Implementing a new service on the opposite side of the country to their existing operations with yet another different small fleet of trains sounds like they'll be stretching themselves too far.

This looks like a direct attack on Yeowart's Great North Western Railway Euston-Blackpool trains: Open access operators are now competing with other open access operators for routes? That's hardly efficient is it?

Nonetheless, with all that said, direct London trains from some of the Trent Valley stations with loco hauled stock is going to be mega! Fantastic news, and I wil definitely be making use of the new service if it comes off, both northbound and southbound from the Trent Valley.

Just how many 67s does DB have to offer? hock: I know that the fleet of 30 is underutilised, but when you consider that Wrexham and Shropshire have 5, Chiltern will probably have another 4 or 5, and Grand Central will be wanting around 3 or 4, then that's a fair proportion of the 67 fleet. I can only hope that as soon as the wires go up to Blackpool that the 67s are replaced with 90s: It would be good to see them better used.

Unless there have been scrappings going on this year, there are loads of spare DVTs available. There are a few mark 3s going spare, but I'm not sure there'd be enough to form up a suitable number of carriage rakes. Although I'm sure Grand Central have done the maths and come up with a number they like.

 

[xtradj]

is there any point when preston has enough trains to london anyway, so blackpool users can just change once?

also hartford? crewe..

and the rest of the stations are served by VT and LM anyway..

bad idea by GC

 

[ukrob]

is there any point when preston has enough trains to london anyway, so blackpool users can just change once?

also hartford? crewe..

and the rest of the stations are served by VT and LM anyway..

bad idea by GC

No, it is a good idea as an orcats raid. They are a business designed to make money, saving a few passengers having to change train at Preston is merely a by-product of the business.

 

[xtradj]

Blackpool - Kirkham Wesham - Poulton - Preston

Wouldnt it be quicker getting the express direct to preston and changing there with a direct service to Euston that is alot quicker?

Also i fail to see Hartford being a big money spinner.. and the return to arrive at Hartford at 00.01? i can't see it sorry

 

[YorkshireBear]

Cargo D have quite a few Mk 3's as for Chiltern I wouldimagine they have a few also,it's the DVT's that are the problem, The best way of actually doing this would be to convert class 90's to operate with the class 67 as the DVT's do now as top and tail, then you have both electric traction for under the wires and diesel for elsewhere. The DVT is a non engined class 90 after all

that sounds sensible and also quite clever cos there you have made a bi mode set

 

[MCR247]

But will many people use it if they see that its quicker by changing at Preston? But apart from that, it will be a good ORCATS raid :roll:

 

[sprinterguy]

that sounds sensible and also quite clever cos there you have made a bi mode set

Very expensive in leasing costs for GC though as there's the track access charges for two locos per train to be considered.

It's starting to look like the West Coast is going to be an absolute mess once the regulation of competition ends, considering all the Alliance Rail and Grand Central open access schemes planned for a start. Expect a lot more Pendolinos to be delayed due to a preceding train as short loco hauled trains chug merrily up the WCML at 100mph and ruin Virgin's (who I don't reckon will be running the West Coast franchise after 2012) VHF timetable.

Although four trains a day in each direction won't make much difference initially, it's just if more schemes get off the ground that there could be problems.

 

[142094]

Blackpool - Kirkham Wesham - Poulton - Preston

Wouldnt it be quicker getting the express direct to preston and changing there with a direct service to Euston that is alot quicker?

Also i fail to see Hartford being a big money spinner.. and the return to arrive at Hartford at 00.01? i can't see it sorry

Apart from being an ORCATS raid for Preston, it will attract people on the day who don't want to pay £100+ for a ticket, as they surely will have the same ticketing as on the Sunderland and Bradford routes. However as you say it is quicker to change at Preston (and for the other routes quicker to go either from Newcastle or Leeds), which is why not many people actually do the whole Sunderland/Bradford - KGX route.

 

[ukrob]

Very expensive in leasing costs for GC though as there's the track access charges for two locos per train to be considered.

It's starting to look like the West Coast is going to be an absolute mess once the regulation of competition ends, considering all the Alliance Rail and Grand Central open access schemes planned for a start. Expect a lot more Pendolinos to be delayed due to a preceding train as short loco hauled trains chug merrily up the WCML at 100mph and ruin Virgin's (who I don't reckon will be running the West Coast franchise after 2012) VHF timetable.

Although four trains a day in each direction won't make much difference initially, it's just if more schemes get off the ground that there could be problems.

Whilst it could certainly increase delays in theory, none of these open access operators would be using the fast lines as they are not operated by 125mph tilt stock.

 

[sprinterguy]

Whilst it could certainly increase delays in theory, none of these open access operators would be using the fast lines as they are not operated by 125mph tilt stock.

True, that is an important point to consider. The disbenefits of more slower trains won't be as pronounced with four tracking, and there are only four a day initially. There are still a few pinch points on the WCML though.

 

[Pumbaa]

Whilst it could certainly increase delays in theory, none of these open access operators would be using the fast lines as they are not operated by 125mph tilt stock.

There's plenty of room though north of Rugby for fast running in places. It's mainly 110 so I wouldn't be surprised if they run fast from Rugby to Crewe. Though again not in the paths they propose.

I think it's a bad plan, and won't get permission.

 

[87015]

There's plenty of room though north of Rugby for fast running in places. It's mainly 110 so I wouldn't be surprised if they run fast from Rugby to Crewe. Though again not in the paths they propose.

I think it's a bad plan, and won't get permission.

There are 110mph paths south of Rugby aswell, WSMR did OK last Friday.

 

[Aictos]

I hope the servive will resort to Electric traction as soon as the wires are up between Preston and Blackpool.
I don't think we really want another all diesel service on an all electrified route.

It did say in the document that the OP provided that once the Blackpool to Preston route has been electrified and passenger volumes are established we would switch to electric locomotives and longer rakes of coaches.

Instead of thinking of 390s or 90s, wouldn't 444s be acceptable as it would make it so much easier operationally to go with them.

 

[RichW1]

Very expensive in leasing costs for GC though as there's the track access charges for two locos per train to be considered.

It's starting to look like the West Coast is going to be an absolute mess once the regulation of competition ends, considering all the Alliance Rail and Grand Central open access schemes planned for a start. Expect a lot more Pendolinos to be delayed due to a preceding train as short loco hauled trains chug merrily up the WCML at 100mph and ruin Virgin's (who I don't reckon will be running the West Coast franchise after 2012) VHF timetable.

Although four trains a day in each direction won't make much difference initially, it's just if more schemes get off the ground that there could be problems.

Totally agree. Why when we want things to move forward should any access operator be allowed to slow things down again on an already slower railway than promised?!!! For god sake 125mph should be minimum allowed if anyone wants to run trains on this line. Otherwise timings will end up going backwards like they have on the whole national rail network when trains ran faster in the 1980's and early 90's!!! Forward not back!

 

[jopsuk]

I'd be interested what an AC powered "444" (344?) would be capable of- I'd rather the impression that they are speed limited due to the issues with 3rd rail pickup.

 

[Aictos]

I'd be interested what an AC powered "444" (344?) would be capable of- I'd rather the impression that they are speed limited due to the issues with 3rd rail pickup.

It's the same with the 319s, they're restricted to 90mph on the 3rd rail BUT are permitted to travel at 100mph on the OHL, note however that the Class 442 does hold the world speed record for a third rail train with 174 km/h (108 mph), attained on 11 April 1988 so why the restriction is in place I do not know, as 3rd rail rolling stock should be able to run at 100mph.

I still believe that once Blackpool and the rest of the North gets wired up, 444s would be ideal for Blackpool to Euston or Manchester to Scotland.

 

[The Planner]

There are 110mph paths south of Rugby aswell, WSMR did OK last Friday.

Did they get fast line paths all the way down ??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Totally agree. Why when we want things to move forward should any access operator be allowed to slow things down again on an already slower railway than promised?!!! For god sake 125mph should be minimum allowed if anyone wants to run trains on this line. Otherwise timings will end up going backwards like they have on the whole national rail network when trains ran faster in the 1980's and early 90's!!! Forward not back!

They wont though, if the path doesn't work it would get rejected, simple as. I can't see the Dft changing the spec of the the WCML franchise to slow it down when they have been desperately trying to speed it up.

 

[TDK]

It's the same with the 319s, they're restricted to 90mph on the 3rd rail BUT are permitted to travel at 100mph on the OHL, note however that the Class 442 does hold the world speed record for a third rail train with 174 km/h (108 mph), attained on 11 April 1988 so why the restriction is in place I do not know, as 3rd rail rolling stock should be able to run at 100mph.

I still believe that once Blackpool and the rest of the North gets wired up, 444s would be ideal for Blackpool to Euston or Manchester to Scotland.

When I worked for South Central 319's were permitted 100MPH running approaching Gatwick on the Brighton expresses, an it made 100 easily as well

 

[tbtc]

That's hardly efficient is it?

No, its completely inefficient, but that's Open Access for you. Its not about efficient use of resources, its about piggybacking onto an existing market and getting your "share".

London has a decent service to the Trent Valley towns (I can't share everyone's fascination with the Trent Valley stations - if they were *that* big a moneyspinner then Virgin would still serve them properly), London has a decent service to Preston, Preston has a decent service to Blackpool North (four trains per hour, plus an hourly train to Blackpool South too). Londoners don't take holidays in Blackpool - the Flyde coast would do better with a direct service to/from any town in western Scotland...

Just how many 67s does DB have to offer? hock: I know that the fleet of 30 is underutilised, but when you consider that Wrexham and Shropshire have 5, Chiltern will probably have another 4 or 5

I think WMSR's 67s will soon be Chiltern's, so there may be some double counting there
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The WCML is going to look like a real mess in a few years if we're not careful, with LM from London to Liverpool, GNWR from London to Barrow, GC from London to Blackpool, plus the daft idea of London - Warrington - Bradford... it seems that linking London to anywhere in north western England is the vogue...

I still believe that once Blackpool and the rest of the North gets wired up, 444s would be ideal for Blackpool to Euston or Manchester to Scotland.

I know I've said this before, but a 444-equivalent would be a good idea for:

London - Norwich
Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh
Manchester - Glasgow/ Edinburgh (once the wiring is completed)
Glasgow - Falkirk - Edinburgh fast services (once the wiring is completed)
Possibly other "medium distance" routes like London - Oxford (once the wiring is completed) or London - Kings Lynn

 

[Aictos]

new post below ---

I know I've said this before, but a 444-equivalent would be a good idea for:

London - Norwich
Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh
Manchester - Glasgow/ Edinburgh (once the wiring is completed)
Glasgow - Falkirk - Edinburgh fast services (once the wiring is completed)
Possibly other "medium distance" routes like London - Oxford (once the wiring is completed) or London - Kings Lynn

I agree, a 444-equivalent would be ideal for these routes

 

[tbtc]

I agree, a 444-equivalent would be ideal for these routes

I really hope the railways sort out one common unit capable of (say) 110mph for journeys of 60-120 minutes, so with seating/doors designed for "middle distance" travel, as something between HS2/IEP/225/390/HSTs and the "commuter" EMUs you get on other lines.

Maybe room for a mini buffet, or at least a trolley service, definitely 2v1 First Class, something for the middle-distance routes.