London to Glasgow Non-Stop

[Watershed]

That's a shame, but useful info. Will Carstairs be sorted by then?

Almost certainly not. The major renewals scheme has been pushed back to 2023 so unless NR can wave a magic wand to fix it in the mean time, it might (almost) as well be a Permanent Speed Restriction.

 

[hexagon789]

If the record was being beaten by 10 minutes wouldn't it be more of an achievement, given the checks experienced previously? 10 seconds might well stand in a record book but there are so many differences in circumstances that comparisons are largely academic.

Nevertheless a good effort today.

I presented that argument earlier. The APT-P, according to the log was at a complete stand for 2 mins 09 secs and suffered six TSRs.

The signalling issues on the day are supposed to have caused 5 mins delay but nevertheless the run beat its schedule by 4 mins 50 secs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

Almost certainly not. The major renewals scheme has been pushed back to 2023 so unless NR can wave a magic wand to fix it in the mean time, it might (almost) as well be a Permanent Speed Restriction.

That's unfortunate, so really the only hope is gaining seconds here and there from more precise braking and accelerating for speed restrictions (if possible).

 

[childwallblues]

I wondered that too.

390044 was the unit. It had been named Royal Scot before the run.

 

[Killingworth]

Back in the 1950s the Elizabethan ran non-stop from Kings Cross to Waverley during the summer months. The only train that ran through Newcastle and one I'd try to spot.

The 1958 timetable had it leaving at 9.30 and timed to arrive at Waverley at 16.05. Here's a British Transport film of it in 1954.

 

[Railperf]

Ran at 125mph max throughout using speed set.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

So any passengers on that TPE have their own journey delayed due to this PR event...

Hope nobody on that TPE had a connection to make at either Motherwell or in Glasgow itself, but hey when did paying passengers count?

No. The TPE service has a lot of 'slack' in its schedule and arrived in Glasgow on time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

I didn't spot that it departed Euston 1 early

It didn't depart 1 min early

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

From RTT it looks like Carstairs was an issue? In relative terms anyway.

Yes 1.5 miles at 50mph cost a lot of time - but seems to have been factored in to the schedule.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

About 5 trains were altered (looped, turned slow line, or held while overtaken).
I doubt if any were late at their destination.
Not sure about around Glasgow (the most difficult bit).

The train was essentially using the path of the pre-Covid 1030 Euston-Glasgow, accelerated at the northern and southern end of its journey.
It also helped that the current timetable has fewer trains in it.

I understand more than 20 trains schedules replanned for this

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

At least they have the luxury of a second attempt. And perhaps with having the experience of using modified braking points etc that can be used to better things next time.

Not being attempted next week AFAIK. This was a backup date only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

Could it be that the safety regime is tighter these days - such as no overspeeding allowed?

Yes

 

[lawried123]

I was on the 0540 Edinburgh - London on the first day, they were trying to get it in on time. I am not sure if they kept things out the way for it as well, but things were going so well until we got to the congested bit south of Stevenage.

There is so much that can go against you on the day. The don't have PW at every level crossing for example.

This is definitely a good challenge, even the APT had to stop and restart at a red signal. (probably also had everything moved out the way)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==


Probably not with any passengers on board. But have the 390s not gone at 135mph on NR metals during their testing?

Back in the 1950s the Elizabethan ran non-stop from Kings Cross to Waverley during the summer months. The only train that ran through Newcastle and one I'd try to spot.

The 1958 timetable had it leaving at 9.30 and timed to arrive at Waverley at 16.05. Here's a British Transport film of it in 1954.

I did do the Elizabethan from Edinburgh to London in my younger days on a boiling hot day. You either kept the windows shut and got stiflingly hot or opened them and got covered in soot. i personally enjoyed the smell and the soot but the ladies in the compartment didn't want to get their dresses dirty !!

 

[Class 170101]

Just checking back, and the APT run was in December 1984, and it was 3hr 52min, but with one stop.

None required here, Preston Drivers

Anyone know if this has got a dispensation on speed limits?

BBC said no on their reports this afternoon

I wonder if they should attempt it overnight?

Might have more luck but for Freight but see below

Apart from all the freight!

Tell NR Saturday night is cancelled for blocks for the High Speed run to take place

 

[Railperf]

First part of the run 'dissection' - the TSR at Carstairs was anticipated to impact the run less than it did. It cost about 90 seconds apparently - what are the chances Network Rail can solve that one by next week?

No chance. I am told it is long term.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

Also, presumably timers on the train need to be able to verify timings at Mile posts etc that won't be visible in darkness.

GPS timing systems work in the dark

 

[louis97]

No. The TPE service has a lot of 'slack' in its schedule and arrived in Glasgow on time.

On time against its revised arrival time that is, its WTT arrival time into Glasgow is 1439. Today it was booked into Glasgow at 1445, at destination there was no differential to match the normal WTT arrival times like there was at Lockerbie and Motherwell. Therefore the point @Kite159 made does apply at Glasgow as well.

 

[hexagon789]

Not being attempted next week AFAIK. This was a backup date only.

Yes, I realise that now. Avanti confirmed that both on Twitter and in a press interview.

No chance. I am told it is long term.

I was being facetious. Moot point now of course.

 

[Railperf]

Today's run proved that the APT record could have been beaten in-spite of the issues at Stafford and the Carstairs TSR. We have identified several small factors that if implemented could have seen the record broken. You cannot ignore the fact that today's run was limited by a strict 125mph maximum speed.
APT achieved close to ten minutes faster journey time north of Preston because it could run at higher speeds through some curves where TASS enforces lower speed limits today and we did not exceed 125mph. The full story and insight to be published in next edition of Railway Magazine. So close.. Really it was!

 

[hexagon789]

Back in the 1950s the Elizabethan ran non-stop from Kings Cross to Waverley during the summer months. The only train that ran through Newcastle and one I'd try to spot.

The 1958 timetable had it leaving at 9.30 and timed to arrive at Waverley at 16.05. Here's a British Transport film of it in 1954.

The Flying Scotsman did the same pre-war (7 hrs 20 non-stop in summer). The streamlined lightweight Coronation by contrast made one stops (different in each direction and later increased to two stops northbound) but was much faster at 6 hours including in winter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2021 ==

Today's run proved that the APT record could have been beaten in-spite of the issues at Stafford and the Carstairs TSR. We have identified several small factors that if implemented could have seen the record broken. You cannot ignore the fact that today's run was limited by a strict 125mph maximum speed.
APT achieved close to ten minutes faster journey time north of Preston because it could run at higher speeds through some curves where TASS enforces lower speed limits today and we did not exceed 125mph. The full story and insight to be published in next edition of Railway Magazine. So close.. Really it was!

I look forward to reading an in depth dissection of the run. It will be very interesting to see all the various points outlined.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Today's run proved that the APT record could have been beaten in-spite of the issues at Stafford and the Carstairs TSR. We have identified several small factors that if implemented could have seen the record broken. You cannot ignore the fact that today's run was limited by a strict 125mph maximum speed.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn’t. As has been pointed out APT’s run could have been quicker too and if the current WCML layout had existed back in 1984, e.g. the faster speeds through Crewe and Rugby stations, it would have been quicker still and today’s run wouldn’t have got anywhere near it.

 

[Shrop]

It's quite surprising that this record was attempted. Everything these days is about strict adherence to a rulebook irrespective of surrounding realities, and there are countless examples of this in the way that the railways are run. 125mph is completely safe, 126mph is highly dangerous and anyone who drives a train at 126mph clearly has no understanding of rail safety, so they must be fired. APT was a dangerous train because it made reporters feel sick, which made a headline so terrible that it needed to be sold to the Italians. (Did we buy it back later at a grossly inflated cost? Wash my mouth out!!!).
So all credit to today's run despite being unable to compete with trains of 40 years ago - it's a bit like today's London to Cardiff trains being slower than they were 40 years ago, after so much was spent on electrification. Circumstances change, we're obliged to accept this, and we therefore simply don't have the will to use trains to the best of their abilities these days because Other Things are so much more important.
Yes, it's surprising that this record was attempted. What isn't surprising is that the attempt failed.

 

[AM9]

It's quite surprising that this record was attempted. Everything these days is about strict adherence to a rulebook irrespective of surrounding realities, and there are countless examples of this in the way that the railways are run. 125mph is completely safe, 126mph is highly dangerous and anyone who drives a train at 126mph clearly has no understanding of rail safety, so they must be fired. APT was a dangerous train because it made reporters feel sick, which made a headline so terrible that it needed to be sold to the Italians. (Did we buy it back later at a grossly inflated cost? Wash my mouth out!!!).
So all credit to today's run despite being unable to compete with trains of 40 years ago - it's a bit like today's London to Cardiff trains being slower than they were 40 years ago, after so much was spent on electrification. Circumstances change, we're obliged to accept this, and we therefore simply don't have the will to use trains to the best of their abilities these days because Other Things are so much more important.
Yes, it's surprising that this record was attempted. What isn't surprising is that the attempt failed.

As has been said upthread, the run today was probably a publicity exercise to demonstrate the time that atrain can get to Glasgow under current operating conditions. It was carried out using a train that was due to be moved as ECS, so the additional cost was minimal. The UK network is currently far safer than it was 40 years ago and this test proved that the cost in journey time was insignificant. The trains are being used to the best of their abilities, which of course include safety, in spite of any facetious comments. Just what is the problem that you have with this run.

 

[mmh]

It wasn’t allowed to break the speed limits!

Which rather does beg the question of what was the point of it. Perfectly possible to plan a train to run at maximum speed for its whole journey - after all, we're forever told there are people dedicated to planning such things.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which rather does beg the question of what was the point of it. Perfectly possible to plan a train to run at maximum speed for its whole journey - after all, we're forever told there are people dedicated to planning such things.

What’s the point of trying to break any record? Showing it can be done.

Aside from the publicity, and the charity, it has also been a useful learning exercise for many people.

 

[Ianno87]

What’s the point of trying to break any record? Showing it can be done.

Aside from the publicity, and the charity, it has also been a useful learning exercise for many people.

And has been explained upthread, the train itself seemingly needed to move north anyway in time for the weekend - so why not take advantage of the opportunity?

(Incidentally, I wonder if one of Avanti's train planners came up with an exceptionally clean path for the ECS, and thought to themselves "hang on a minute....")

 

[dk1]

I would guess it would also be around 4h10. I remember back in BR days a number of services were timed do it in 3h59 between London and Edinburgh, I even rode some that did. Basically if you got through York and Newcastle ontime you were fine. The railway is lot more busy now, getting to York in 1h40 is easy, but getting onto the platform isn't. I expect WCML will have the same issues that are prevent LNER from going for a 4 hour service (which should be possible with the Azuma) 2 many trains getting in the way.

06:00up/15:00dn (SX) The Scottish Pullman I seem to recall. It was once stated that a right time arrival was achieved only 30% of the time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, it's surprising that this record was attempted. What isn't surprising is that the attempt failed.

Come back c2028 and the record will be broken, but not with a 390.

 

[Skymonster]

I applaud the effort by all involved, and the point has been proven that today’s railway can perform (albeit under artificial conditions not available to ‘normal’ passengers). Comparing this run with the APT and explaining away the failure to beat the record with TSRs and an inability to run at 140mph denies that the APT faced other significant restrictions that did not affect the 390. I’m actually rather pleased the APT still holds the record and hope any further attempts are thwarted until HS2 makes a new record holder almost inevitable.

 

[driver9000]

Almost certainly not. The major renewals scheme has been pushed back to 2023 so unless NR can wave a magic wand to fix it in the mean time, it might (almost) as well be a Permanent Speed Restriction.

Work is happening around Carstairs with new foundations laid for lineside equipment around the triangle and piles driven for new OLE masts. It doesn't seem to the most rapid of projects but I'm surprised you say it's pushed back to 2023 while work is already going on.

 

[Watershed]

Work is happening around Carstairs with new foundations laid for lineside equipment around the triangle and piles driven for new OLE masts. It doesn't seem to the most rapid of projects but I'm surprised you say it's pushed back to 2023 while work is already going on.

The renewals work that will ease the TSR is to do with relaying the junctions. Unfortunately that's being done as a like for like renewal, condemning the Edinburgh 'branch' to a disappointing 15mph single lead junction for the next few decades, but such is life!

 

[SuspectUsual]

So, to my simple brain, the upshot of all of this is that today’s theoretical fastest run may have been a tiny bit quicker than the APT’s actual fastest run. As it turned out, today’s actual turned out to be a little slower.

I get that it’s good PR, but it’s not much more than that.

 

[mcmad]

The renewals work that will ease the TSR is to do with relaying the junctions. Unfortunately that's being done as a like for like renewal, condemning the Edinburgh 'branch' to a disappointing 15mph single lead junction for the next few decades, but such is life!

Its not but why let the facts get in the way of another rant.

 

[jfollows]

I think it was laudable, well executed, and it doesn't really matter to me that it failed to break the record, it was a worthy attempt. It also clarifies the art of the possible here.

A good friend, from Glasgow but living in London, asked me if this was to become a regular service. Of course I explained the need for stops en route and the change in the pattern of services since 1974 (when a lot of services ran non-stop between Preston and Carlisle, for example, and even one up evening Birmingham train ran non-stop Carstairs to Preston). I'd like to see fewer stops too, but I understand the explanation of requiring other trains to fill in the gaps if so. My friend's comments show that this generated interest - he doesn't drive but he's not a rail enthusiast in any way.

I enjoyed following the train on-line also, in my case I used Traksy and it performed well, presumably under additional load from normal.

I also find it interesting but unsurprising to compare London-Crewe with Crewe-Glasgow for both runs. Living in Wilmslow I have seen massive changes to the London-Crewe route over the time since the APT ran. I don't go north of Crewe all that often but it rarely appears much changed since I first went over the route in the late 1970s.

 

[Railperf]

What’s the point of trying to break any record? Showing it can be done.

Aside from the publicity, and the charity, it has also been a useful learning exercise for many people.

It was a record breaking 'attempt'. Like all record breaking attempts, there is a risk that the record might not be achieved.

In reality the APT record was run under very different circumstances. The Pendolino was 10 mins up on the APT record by Crewe demonstrating the benefits of WCML remodelling south of there - as acknowledged above.

From Crewe northwards, the APT (free of any speed supervision safety devices) and given dispensation to run at well over the loco hauled speed limits of the time and way more than 125mph - literally flew through the northern section of the WCML. It is reckoned that speeds through places such as Quintinshill Shap and Beattock which are currently less than 100mph for todays trains would have been negotiated by APT at much higher speeds.

Those with an understanding of the route and comparing the fastest recorded point to point times - knew that this was going to be a very very tight bid to beat the APT record - as it proved.
I'm looking back at the speed profile and not seeing any time deficit at Stafford in-spite of claims we had to slow down there . We went though at 85mph - which is the permitted limit.
Carstairs 1.5 mile 50mph TSR was known about and planned in.

The planners had this scheduled for 3 h53 - knowing the record was 3 h52 and 40s. So clearly they were spot on the money. I'm guessing they hoped a few seconds here and there would be gained en-route. I do believe that if they believed there was another half a minute to be gained, then the schedule would have reflected that.

The 'inside' story is promised to the Railway magazine first - and then we can hopefully share some more data once that is published. But let me be clear here that it is 'known' that one or two operational decisions and a couple of path tweaks could have secured the record.

Of course this could be attempted in future and on the day any number of other issues can crop up that will scupper it.

Hats off to everyone involved that this attempt almost ran like clockwork!

I for one am privileged to have sat on a train London to Glasgow that was 20 secs shy of the APT record.
It demonstrates 3 things.

1. What a beast the APT actually was - greater tilting ability and higher speeds through the twisty bits - to run that northern section 10 mins faster than today.. Wow - that would have been an experience. Todays's Pendolino spec might be slightly toned down, but what a reliable train that has proved to be and a worthy successor.

2. The WCML upgrade scheme has not only delivered a railway that is 10 mins quicker at the Southern end, but also delivered greater capacity and frequency.

3. How good the combined Pendolino and WCML upgrade package was that we could meet the APT record within just 20 secs on a 125mph railway!

Add to that the great co-operation across the whole railway to make this happen.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was a record breaking 'attempt'. Like all record breaking attempts, there is a risk that the record might not be achieved.

In reality the APT record was run under very different circumstances. The Pendolino was 10 mins up on the APT record by Crewe demonstrating the benefits of WCML remodelling south of there - as acknowledged above.

From Crewe northwards, the APT (free of any speed supervision safety devices) and given dispensation to run at well over the loco hauled speed limits of the time and way more than 125mph - literally flew through the northern section of the WCML. It is reckoned that speeds through places such as Quintinshill Shap and Beattock which are currently less than 100mph for todays trains would have been negotiated by APT at much higher speeds.

Those with an understanding of the route and comparing the fastest recorded point to point times - knew that this was going to be a very very tight bid to beat the APT record - as it proved.
I'm looking back at the speed profile and not seeing any time deficit at Stafford in-spite of claims we had to slow down there . We went though at 85mph - which is the permitted limit.
Carstairs 1.5 mile 50mph TSR was known about and planned in.

The planners had this scheduled for 3 h53 - knowing the record was 3 h52 and 40s. So clearly they were spot on the money. I'm guessing they hoped a few seconds here and there would be gained en-route. I do believe that if they believed there was another half a minute to be gained, then the schedule would have reflected that.

The 'inside' story is promised to the Railway magazine first - and then we can hopefully share some more data once that is published. But let me be clear here that it is 'known' that one or two operational decisions and a couple of path tweaks could have secured the record.

Of course this could be attempted in future and on the day any number of other issues can crop up that will scupper it.

Hats off to everyone involved that this attempt almost ran like clockwork!

I for one am privileged to have sat on a train London to Glasgow that was 20 secs shy of the APT record.
It demonstrates 3 things.

1. What a beast the APT actually was - greater tilting ability and higher speeds through the twisty bits - to run that northern section 10 mins faster than today.. Wow - that would have been an experience. Todays's Pendolino spec might not be slightly toned down, but what a reliable train that has proved to be and a worthy successor.

2. The WCML upgrade scheme has not only delivered a railway that is 10 mins quicker at the Southern end, but also delivered greater capacity and frequency.

3. How good the combined Pendolino and WCML upgrade package was that we could meet the APT record within just 20 secs on a 125mph railway!

Add to that the great co-operation across the whole railway to make this happening

Great post, and I agree it was a great thing to do.

 

[syorksdeano]

Maybe they could try it on the East Coast next time

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe they could try it on the East Coast next time

Bit difficult to break the West Coast record that way.